Changing things in the USAF

[john]

alright i have limited experience here. but why is it that anyone "in the know" or anyone that has the power to change things (read: most 0-6s and up) will never give you a straight answer. theres always just the song and dance with the eventual ending of stating the company line. why is that there is now no one in leadership (big leadership) that still has the balls to question big blue. hell the af came from a guy who questioned all the way down to his career grave.

i just want for once someone to admit that the air force has an identity crisis of cold war guys leading us who dont know how they af currently fits in. that the way we are producing officers is borderline broken. and that more shit bags make it through commissioning sources with more brains than they know what to do with but not enough leadership in them to get a group of elementary kids across the street.

and how does it make sense for aetc leadership to come from within aetc. they are so out of touch with the real operational af its painful to think they are trying to prepare us young guys for the real af.

why the hell do we need a warriors creed. why is all thats talked about heritage about theyre all afraid to admit that our heritage is flying. just flying. not any of this other warrior mentality of some 30lb over weight ssgt that pushes paper and thinks hes contributing to the fight.

and to finally cross the line. for all of you field grade guys out there complaining about the same thing, why does everyone bail instead of trying to fix things?

not trying to bitch, just looking for where things went/go wrong?

Edited July 30, 2008 by john

[FalconXtreme]

and to finally cross the line. for all of you field grade guys out there complaining about the same thing, why does everyone bail instead of trying to fix things?

as a young buck looking in, i'm interested in this answer myself

[ol-IEWO]

and to finally cross the line. for all of you field grade guys out there complaining about the same thing, why does everyone bail instead of trying to fix things?

I can't answer for the current field grade officers but I can tell you my story. I was selected to attend AFIT at a civilian university for an MBA in business admin and management. After graduation, I was given a bullshit non-job with a bunch of civilians in a non-flying command. The civilian manager had no use for rated officers; two years and they are gone. I let my feelings be known and I got called into the General's office. I thought I was screwed but he was a fair guy and never mentioned my problem. The incident caused him to review my record, saw my MBA and asked me to be on his staff to provide management analysis and advice when I saw a problem. He threw some bene's in there about a follow on assignment so it was a big win for me. After finding some problems, I'd cover it at his staff meetings and list possible solutions as A, B, or C. Too often, the staff would come up with D, E, and F on how to hide the problem, shift blame or some similiar fix. After my follow on assignment (which was another desk job but was super), I went back to a flying unit, unfortunately the Wing CO saw the General's review in my records so instead of being assigned to a squadron, I ended up on his staff doing the same thing for him as I did for the General. The only difference was we would discuss it in his office. When I found small problems, I would make a casual comment about it, have a brief conversation, and some of the time he would tell me to get his Exec. Off. to fix it. Othertimes he'd say no and move on to another topic. At times he'd get upset that it was even mentioned. Fortunately, we didn't have chicken shit issues like your shoe clerks are imposing. On bigger things I would get into somewhat of a heated discussions with him, I sure wasn't pushing the envelope or anything that stupid but about the time he started to get a little irritated, he'd get a slight grin on his face and say "Major,- - this is- - -MY Wing." I'd salute and leave, letting him have the last word. I was probably one of the few people to be in a position like this. Did I make a difference, I don't know. I didn't feel like it made a difference but I gave it my best. It was a thankless job that I disliked, I felt like I was spending a lot of time and had little to show for it. Even though I was attached to a squadron and flew a lot (we were short flight crew so I flew about as much as the guys in the squadron), I missed the support and camaraderie associated with being in the squadron. I was frustrated and fed up so I got out. You can say that I quit pissing into the wind and quit beating my head against the wall.

[JVBFLY]

and to finally cross the line. for all of you field grade guys out there complaining about the same thing, why does everyone bail instead of trying to fix things?

not trying to bitch, just looking for where things went/go wrong?

Bail instead of fix things...this is a very fine line I will tell you. It is certainly tough. To get promoted in the Air Force, on the whole, you at some point have to shut up, salute smartly, and move on with your daily job. Although process improvement programs are a constant buzz, people fear change (reference UAV scenario). You must complete PME, etc. Most commanders do not like senior Capts or young Majors that challenge them to change operating ways, etc. Most commanders do not want to change many things for fear of failure or looking bad to their rater. The AF promotion system is really solely based on this person's opinion of your performance. Hence, to get promoted (i.e. make more money), you must at some point be in line with your boss, operate his/her way, and not stray from the pack. If you are a person that challenges your leaders to do better, make changes, and improve processes, the civilian world wants you because you will make their profits larger by cutting out useless items. I am not saying this is necessarily the correct approach, but such is life. Being a field grader, wearing a reflective belt everywhere, filling out a 29B to go somewhere, and reminding someone in finance that they are "entitlements", is not fun for anyone. Sure the tide could change, but it is going to take a lot more than a few heads to get cut.

[Toro]

not trying to bitch, just looking for where things went/go wrong?

Long before you entered the Air Force. Shut up and color, make your way to the top, then change things.

[john]

Long before you entered the Air Force. Shut up and color, make your way to the top, then change things.

ok ive had a far too many beers in the asbc quad tonight, but. do you really have to shut up and color your way up. can not there be a push where everyone with with a level head will say instead of retiring at the 05 do level i will accept the sq/cc job and put up with the bull shit for 1 maybe 2 years and see how it goes. cannot there be enough leadership at the squadron level (which ive been taught is where all great officers dies these days) to make a big push? im not looking for advice for me, im wondering why i dont have some real world o5/o6 saying this is how the af works or this is what we actually support flying wise.

if im csaf in 30+ years, all aetc assignments will be 3 years and will not be severed back to back. you have to serve operationally before you can teach some new rotc/ots/cot/academy kid what its like.

i like the drunken bendy posting method.

[brickhistory]

i like the drunken bendy posting method.

Nonsensical component was high, but the readability was low due to no capitalization at all.

On the Bender scale this is a 'fail.'

However, to your point:

Unfortunately, you aren't saying anything new or unique. Our predecessors going back to the early 1800s said the same thing about their leadership and lack thereof.

Our own Air Force has been plagued by it since before we were a separate service. Arnold would not have become chief if his predecessor hadn't made a fabric and aluminum mess on a hill someplace (Andrews? can't remember). Arnold also had a big drinking problem and was a racist. Not defaming him, this behavior was the norm then. It's all about the context.

However, the crew dogs who made up the legend of 8th, 5th, 20th, 9th AFs, et al, complained about the queep of the Army Air Forces - while engaged in combat, in a forward base. Some of the stupidity foisted on those guys makes the 'Dumbness at the Deid' thread look like nothing.

Want to make it better? Pick your battles. If you are against everything, you need to figure out why. Maybe it all needs to be changed, but in your span of control, can you do that? Probably not. From that basis, what can you change and why? Change just for the sake of it is just as bogus as not changing something stupid.

Having picked your battles, do you have an appropriate approach? Remember, there is a chain of command backed up by the UCMJ and a large beaucratic (sp?) inertia. That combination has a lot more firepower, energy, and frankly, patience than you probably do.

Still game? Ok, what do you want to change locally? Why? What is your solution to fixing it? If you don't have one to recommend, then why should the boss listen to a whiner?

Moving up the rank ladder, you may gain more span of control. Conversely, the time you have to do the things you want decreases. So, again, you have to prioritize. What can you do that will make it better for those under you? If you are stupid about it or concentrate on that to the exclusion of the mission, you probably will be relieved of your command.

But, there are things worth that.

I don't think most of those who make it to flag rank are tools. I think they were just like you, me, and most of the rest of us here - they want to get the job done with a minimum of asspain.

Some of those at that level are tools - see the 'he who shall not be named' thread for an example.

By the way, think it's really different in the civilian corporate world? Maybe if you found google or Microsoft. But if you are an employee for a large organization, I'd submit it's worse. Many more ways for f*ck-ups to stay on the payroll and/or in the way than in the military. If that weren't true, why are there so many books on leadership and management? Why is "The Office" such a smash?

So, good on ya for seeing the issues at a junior rank. Ponder how to fix what you can - with or without the liquid assistance. Lather, rinse, repeat for your entire career.

[Guest Smoke_Jaguar4]

i just want for once someone to admit that the air force has an identity crisis of cold war guys leading us who dont know how they af currently fits in. that the way we are producing officers is borderline broken. and that more shit bags make it through commissioning sources with more brains than they know what to do with but not enough leadership in them to get a group of elementary kids across the street.

If you're at ASBC, then the same commissioning sources that produced these 'shit bags' also produced you. Please be sure to let your fellow ASBCians know how much of a better officer you are. They'll truly appreciate your superiority.

and how does it make sense for aetc leadership to come from within aetc. they are so out of touch with the real operational af its painful to think they are trying to prepare us young guys for the real af.

Yep, A-ETCetera is the USAF's ivory tower. Deal with it. Probably 75% of the crap they serve is useless, 10% is out of date, and 10% only applies in 'ideal' situations. Figure out what 5% you need; you'll get back to the real AF soon enough.

why the hell do we need a warriors creed. why is all thats talked about heritage about theyre all afraid to admit that our heritage is flying. just flying. not any of this other warrior mentality of some 30lb over weight ssgt that pushes paper and thinks hes contributing to the fight.

No, it's not 'just flying'. Go ahead and run that by a Space and Missiles guy.

Now in the air-breathing AF, it's about flying. The thing is, those airplanes don't take care of themselves. Behind you there's a lot of people to take care of the maintenance, logistics, planning, equipment, facilities, vehicles, infrastructure, environment, personnel, contracts, and funding. As un-optimal as it may seem, take out those 'shoe-clerks' and see how far you'll get. Furthermore, when the order comes that SSgt will forward deploy to some FOB like Balad or Mosul, where he'll continue to 'file paper' while subject to incoming mortar rounds and snipers. Unlike you, he usually doesn't have the luxury of shooting back. Point to ponder: when you drop ordinance on the enemy's heads, chances are you're taking out his shoe-clerks.

and to finally cross the line. for all of you field grade guys out there complaining about the same thing, why does everyone bail instead of trying to fix things?

not trying to bitch, just looking for where things went/go wrong?

As far as guys bailing, it's called the Golden Handcuffs. With a retirement system that's all or nothing, a lot of guys will ride out 20 years to join the Check-of-the-Month Club. Not that they're bad officers, but by the time you're in 16 years, you'll know if you'll top out as an LTC or Major or if you have a chance at Col+.

Want to know were to fix it? Start with the retirement and promotion systems. Unfortunately, the same people in the position to make these changes are the same ones who came out on top thanks to these systems. This known as is the "Self-Licking Ice-Cream Cone", a combination of self-reinforcing patterns that tie the USAF to a less than optimal path. Good luck on breaking it.

[disgruntledemployee]

for all of you field grade guys out there complaining about the same thing, why does everyone bail instead of trying to fix things?

I knew an outstanding field grader (true crew dog) and watched his career get shit-canned by a P.O.S. O-6 at the Deid. That happens way to often to the good guys. Put yourself in those dusy tan boots for a moment. When shit happens to one of your crews doing the J-O-B, would you stand your ground (got your back, crew), knowing that will be your last stand, or fall in line and throw the crew to the wolves?

Thats the kind of stuff that makes people think twice about taking command. Too often, in recent history, the right thing to do doesn't mix well with the "Management" above you. Once I figure out the magic formula to solve that one, we'll be on our way to taking over the Force.

So "John," to answer your question, fixing it seems like trying to cure cancer. People grow tired of cracking their head against the wall and decide to move on.

Still Disgruntled

Out.

[Toro]

Fatal flaw with your reasoning.

I stand by my statement, but let me explain it. By "Shut up and color" I don't mean stand back and do nothing. I mean that you should work to change things at your appropriate level, but when you're squashed by the man, salute smartly and find the next item for you to fix. Take your small victories and progress to the next level.

As a Lt, don't accept the AFI paragraph that seems to have been put in place by a shoe clerk - put in an 847 and change it.

As a Capt, become a shop chief and shitcan all the stupid policies the previous Sq/CC put in place.

As a Maj, become an ADO and actually do something other than flying your bi-daily sortie and going home; bring the maintainers up the squadron to educate them on how Ops works.

As a LtCol, become a DO or CC. Let your troops wear LPA patches and Friday shirts to raise morale, and at the same time, work the stuff that matters like the screwed up flying program.

As a Col. you have made it. You are where we need you to be. Tell the idiots at finance that they're going to stop taking their daily two-hour training sessions and be in place to help us. Tell the idiots at MPF to open their doors before 0900 and leave them open until 1800 so the people who complete the mission of the military can actually get help. Kick the SFS SrA in the nuts when he writes your guys a speeding ticket for driving 12 mph in the parking lot at 1am.

Small victories, chip away at the stone.

Rage against the machine one reflector belt at a time.

[JVBFLY]

Start with the retirement and promotion systems. Unfortunately, the same people in the position to make these changes are the same ones who came out on top thanks to these systems. This known as is the "Self-Licking Ice-Cream Cone", a combination of self-reinforcing patterns that tie the USAF to a less than optimal path. Good luck on breaking it.

Perfect analysis.

[StretchJr]

Toro- Loved it. Advice for life.

[john]

If you're at ASBC, then the same commissioning sources that produced these 'shit bags' also produced you. Please be sure to let your fellow ASBCians know how much of a better officer you are. They'll truly appreciate your superiority.

you know i expected a response like this. i am no way trying to convey that im above everyone else.

but you are going to tell me that all officers/leaders are the same? that there are no great ones? good ones? ok ones? bad ones? ones you would follow? ones you would run from? and that any changes/abilities in officership/leadership only show up after several years in the af?

im not saying people cant develop themselves for the better, improve, degrade, check out after 16 years. no way is the john i am today going to be the john of 10 years from now.

but i will tell you this, some people arent made to be leaders or officers. and it shows soon. you could see it when you were next to them at the academy/ots/rotc/ft or where ever. you know some the guys im talking about. not everyone is not made for it. i also understand that most officers in the af are commissioned to be technical experts and not leaders. but some (read "some", not all, not even most, but just some percentage that i have no idea of) of these people that just coasted by through whenever end up in leadership roles.

now before you jump on me for saying only leaders become rated and everyone else sucks thats why they are ce or finance, thats not what im saying. there are losers and really bad leaders in the af. im wondering how these "shit bags" get a commission, and then progress. and no one had the common sense or balls to really say, these guys shouldnt make it any further.

aside: this was a clarification of my original question/statement, not a new or reposed one.

Edited August 1, 2008 by john

[Whitman]

Nonsensical component was high, but the readability was low due to no capitalization at all.

On the Bender scale this is a 'fail.'

brick, i couldn't agree more!

[PirateAF]

I stand by my statement, but let me explain it. By "Shut up and color" I don't mean stand back and do nothing. I mean that you should work to change things at your appropriate level, but when you're squashed by the man, salute smartly and find the next item for you to fix. Take your small victories and progress to the next level.

As a Lt, don't accept the AFI paragraph that seems to have been put in place by a shoe clerk - put in an 847 and change it.

As a Capt, become a shop chief and shitcan all the stupid policies the previous Sq/CC put in place.

As a Maj, become an ADO and actually do something other than flying your bi-daily sortie and going home; bring the maintainers up the squadron to educate them on how Ops works.

As a LtCol, become a DO or CC. Let your troops wear LPA patches and Friday shirts to raise morale, and at the same time, work the shit that matters like the ######ed up flying program.

As a Col. you have made it. You are where we need you to be. Tell the idiots at finance that they're going to stop taking their daily two-hour training sessions and be in place to help us. Tell the ######stains at MPF to open their doors before 0900 and leave them open until 1800 so the people who complete the mission of the military can actually get help. Kick the SFS SrA in the nuts when he writes your guys a speeding ticket for driving 12 mph in the parking lot at 1am.

Small victories, chip away at the stone.

Rage against the machine one reflector belt at a time.

Folks re-read this excellent post. I'm actually thinking about posting this in the men's room.

Here's hoping you make it to Col Toro.

[backseatdriver]

Rage against the machine one reflector belt at a time.

Toro - regardless of your opinion on signatures, I had to steal this one. Awesome post.

[brickhistory]

So, did you learn anything?

Is it as bleak as you suspect?

[Herk Mafia]

Toro - regardless of your opinion on signatures, I had to steal this one. Awesome post.

I was going to do the same but you beat me to it.