New Uniforms

[Champ Kind]

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

Is he the one on the right with more medals than a Mexican General?

Also note the Missile badge. He probably sat in his hole for years on end earlier in his career and came crawling back into the sunlight with a Ph.D and a cooky idea for new uniforms.

[jazzdude]

Here's the whole article.

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Back to the drawing board

You didn’t want retro, but the chief wants ‘heritage.’ So now what?

By Andrew deGrandpré

Staff writer

When Gen. T. Michael Moseley became chief of staff last year, he set out to infuse his Air Force with two things: a sense of urgency that this is an Air Force at war, and an appreciation of what he calls “heritage to horizon” — that is, the service’s storied past and exciting future.

He ordered office-bound airmen to hang up their service dress uniforms and don camouflage utilities and flight suits to feel a greater solidarity with those deployed to war zones. And he directed his uniform board to look at historic service dress uniforms to inspire a new and improved dress coat for today.

Known by the pioneering generals who wore them, the Billy Mitchell and the Hap Arnold prototypes hearken back to World War I and World War II, and include throw-back features, like a stand-up mandarin collar, or broad, peaked lapels, scalloped breast pockets and a full-length necktie, even for women.

But something happened on the way back to the future: Airmen balked.

After Air Force Times published pictures of the new prototypes in May, more than 140 letters poured in, most of them opposed to the new look. An AirForceTimes.com poll conducted in June tallied more than 1,200 votes — 54 percent of them in favor of keeping the existing blue suit. Only 23 percent opted for the Billy Mitchell, with its mandarin collar, and a paltry 5 percent backed the wide-lapelled Hap Arnold model.

Nearly 19 percent of the votes said the Air Force should scrap both and start anew.

The Air Force uniform board solicited its own responses, and you gave it to them — in spades. Officials received more than 2,000 e-mails, said Senior Master Sgt. Dana Athnos, chief of the Air Force Uniform Board.

“The younger people didn’t like it,” she said. “They want more pop, more pizzazz.”

Now, leaders are taking your ideas and heading back to the drafting table.

“This is going to take time,” Athnos said, “but it’s the right thing to do.”

A starting point

Air Force officials are planning to contact various designers and solicit as many as five new concepts for the next service dress uniform, Athnos said, noting that it’s still too early in the process to say what you may eventually see.

Indications are that it won’t be either the Billy Mitchell or the Hap Arnold spot-on — but it may be similar, she said, perhaps “an evolution of what we’ve seen previously.”

We know what we don’t want, which is what we have,” Athnos said, referring to the current service dress uniform. “We tried these two [prototypes], the force wasn’t happy, so now we need something in between” the two prototypes and the current blue uniform. She referred to the Air Force’s goal as a “military-looking uniform that doesn’t look like a business suit.”

“We’ll tell these design houses, ‘This is your starting point. Go be creative.’”

There’s no timeline yet for seeing the project through, Athnos said, noting, however, that the service typically turns around a uniform — that is, from introducing the idea to stocking shelves with a product — in about 4½ years.

If that were the case, a new service dress would debut in late 2010 or early 2011.

“The chief isn’t willing to put one on the shelf if the force … won’t support it,” Athnos said. “He’s really listening to the troops’ feedback and wants to make sure everyone is happy.”

Pop and pizazz

In late July, officials summoned to Washington 10 airmen whose comments on the uniform had been been published in Air Force Times. They heard directly from Moseley what he’s aiming for, and he and his staff heard directly from them what they wanted. The group brainstormed a heap of uniform issues and their input, along with the 2,000 e-mails, is helping to shape the next set of prototypes, Athnos said.

“They want the lapels smaller,” she said, “and no belt. Or a more prominent belt that stands out — not the cheesy-looking belt on the prototypes.”

Many airmen like the idea of silver or white lining along parts of the uniform, perhaps a stripe running down the pants. Others sought something comfortable, practical and, well, good-looking — with shiny buttons, a jet fighter insignia, fancy belt buckles, silver stripes or piping to make it stand out.

Standout suggestions

Those ideas were revealing and not far removed from the suggestions Athnos noted: Airmen want more panache — and comfort.

Lt. Col. Derek Hirohata, a judge advocate general deployed to Iraq, wants a uniform that resembles the Billy Mitchell coat but with an open collar. That, he said, would allow airmen to wear ascots, which recall the silk scarves worn by pilots who flew in open-air cockpits.

The ascot would bear the Army Air Corps logo, Hirohata said, and its color would be linked to an airmen’s career field: blue for air ops, black for space, white for medical, purple for legal and so on.

“A closed mandarin collar does make it a stiff uniform,” he added. “An open collar, with an ascot, would be a little more comfortable.”

Hirohata likes the idea of introducing a ceremonial dagger “to signify to everyone that we have a duty with weapons.”

Bunched up in an unforgiving dress uniform, Staff Sgt. Kimberly Collyge endured a bit of hell each morning just trying to fix her hair.

Mobility, she said, is very constricted in the current service dress uniform, and it can be a fight to raise her arms high enough to carry out the requisite primping. Mornings are rough enough, she said. Why can’t they make dress clothes that are more flexible?

Then, last year, someone told Collyge, who works in the equal opportunity office at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., that she could go to work wearing her utility uniform instead.

For her, the change meant goodbye fuss, problem solved. Still, she began to miss the sense of pride that materialized once she got all gussied up — evidence, perhaps, that having a spiffy uniform really does matter.

And like many of the women who offered suggestions, Collyge said she wants a uniform that first considers the female form and, further, makes her and all airmen look like the warriors they are.

“I am a woman,” she said. “I’m not straight-hipped.

“And I’m not a civilian businessperson. I’m in the military. I want something that distinguishes me from everyone else. I want to stand out.”

She believes new garb, with the right fit and style, will boost morale for those who already serve and will arouse interest in those considering it. For a recruiter, Collyge said, there’s no better weapon than an awe-inspiring uniform.

Andrew deGrandpré is deputy news editor for Air Force Times. He may be reached at adegrandpre@airforcetimes.com or (703) 750-8667

[MD]

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

MD,

Can you give me a link to the source of that stuff?

Does anyone know where this guy is stationed?

My bad, I should've cited the source when I cut and paste that portion. But others here have correctly pointed out the article from the AF times where my cut and paste came from.

[EnriquePallazo]

Does anyone else get the idea that the uniform board is a lot like that scene in Patton when he describes the Tank-Crew uniform to be topped off with a golden football helmet?

[M2]

Ya mean this one??

It's really not that far of from what we are seeing...actually, I almost like it better!

Cheers! M2

[Toasty]

Oh sweet Jesus, look what we have done....we've just sent them back to the drawing board to spend more money and waste more time for a uniform with more "pizazz"...

[HerkDerka]

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

Is there a chance I can find his email and the source of the article (if that's what it is)?

Sic 'em Rainmain. Kill!

HD

[Horns05]

We all know where this is going...

Sad things is this will prolly motivate the space dorks out there...and for that I appologize

[Toro]

LtCol Derek Hirohata, wants a uniform that resembles the Billy Mitchell coat but with an open collar.

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

Is he the one on the right with more medals than a Mexican General?

Good guess - what was it that gave it away?

[Clayton Bigsby]

I'm pleased that as an E, I now have to wear GOLD "US" insignia, instead of silver like every other piece on my uniform (AFSC badges, nametag, buttons, etc).

I understand that tMike is trying to bring the perception of a military under war and renew a sense of tradition, but the feeling I'm getting is that as a "warfighter" of sorts I'm apparently on the fringes of the service while busy doing my job, while others not fighting a war and with plenty of time and money are getting off with hundreds of uniform changes. I mean for chrissakes, not a single uniform has eluded SMSgt Athnos' touch.

Yeah I'll admit I wear a bag all the time, and will do anything to get out of wearing my blues, but someday I might have to wear that shit. I'm going to have a lot of catching up to do.

[Ram]

GOLD US insignia? HUH?

I thought the circle was coming back. I can understand that, but gold =

[Clayton Bigsby]

yeah, it's brass.

kind of hard to tell it's a gold tint, but you can sorta see its brassiness.

[ 09. August 2006, 21:29: Message edited by: Toro ]

[Guest Slilock]

Originally posted by Chuck Farleston:

I'm pleased that as an E, I now have to wear GOLD "US" insignia, instead of silver like every other piece on my uniform (AFSC badges, nametag, buttons, etc).

I understand that tMike is trying to bring the perception of a military under war and renew a sense of tradition, but the feeling I'm getting is that as a "warfighter" of sorts I'm apparently on the fringes of the service while busy doing my job, while others not fighting a war and with plenty of time and money are getting off with hundreds of uniform changes. I mean for chrissakes, not a single uniform has eluded SMSgt Athnos' touch.

Yeah I'll admit I wear a bag all the time, and will do anything to get out of wearing my blues, but someday I might have to wear that shit. I'm going to have a lot of catching up to do.

He's more concerned about making the E uniform look less than the O's. Hence why he also took away SNCO's from wearing shoulder boards with their blues.

[Ill Destructor]

Personal opinion here: The Air Force uniforms have sucked for years. Years and years. Blue sucks. Blue is not a warrior's colors. You know blue is used by most major corporations as a company color to instill a feeling of stability and trustworthiness... not aggressiveness. To hell with the blue. Yeah yeah... it can symbolize the "wild blue yonder," but whatever. Yawn. Chair Force indeed.

And all this talk about a lack of tradition in the Air Force... there was a tradition, alright. But that effectively died with the Korean conflict. WWII was the high point... relatively simple machines flown by gutsy, gritty men with 5 o'clock shadows, nerves of steel, ready to fight in 5 minutes time... and no missiles... just a gun. These were men... in the shit, in the thick of the fight when you could see your opponents face. Alas, technology has killed that tradition. It's hard to have a real tradition when your branch of the service is built on technology and much less on raw guts and grit. The Army and Marines put boots on the ground, get into the shit and kill their enemy with a much more personal weapon, a gun. They put themselves in immediate danger 'cause they are in the thick of everything. That is why you see "Semper Fi" bumper stickers and "USMC" tattoos on troops who spent a mere 4 years in the service. The trials they have endured are crazy compared to those of the Air Force. The USAF doesn't have any real enemy. No one flies against us. They bury their machines in the desert and instead choose to shoot missiles at us. We don't place an emphasis on raw fortitude and determination. The Air Force is not hardcore. The other branches are... at least more so. (The Navy has tradition 'cause navies have been around since God created them on the little-known 8th day.)

If the brass wants to build tradition, they need to kill the business-like atmosphere they've built. Get back to the basics, the business of kicking ass. Have a warrior's spirit, not Warrior Tuesdays. Get hardcore.

Personally, I feel that the Air Force is stuck being the junior branch of the service for all eternity. Eventhough we're getting into space ahead ofthe other branches, once we become a true space-capable force, the other branches will swoop in and usurp the real power and reputation. At least IMHO.

Sorry guys... Just shooting from the hip (and probably talking from my ass). And don't take offense to any of this. I speak mainly of the AF leadership's whiney, quivering, "let's play dress up" reputation... not of the men and women who are out there kickin' ass and takin' names.

EDITTED FOR A FEW MINOR SPELLING MISTAKES

[ 10. August 2006, 00:01: Message edited by: dbarbour ]

[Guest ruckerstud]

I don't know what I find more disturbing about the Air Force times article. That no one who bothered responding mentioned anything about just going back to the "LeMay" style service dress that worked for about 30 years, or the fact that they had two male fashion experts talking for half a page about the slimming effects of wider belts.

[Bishop]

What would you suggest as a different color besides blue? Ive mentioned before how cool it would be to bring back a totally optional khacki dress. how cool would it be to wear the khaki pants and green shirts like the air corps did, looks like the lemay style just took their of coat and put blue into it. I could be talking outta my ass its late...

Also, I dont know if it was just me, but the lemay style did seem "faded" in colOr, was this the case or normal occurance or was mine, as well as my fathers just not the darkest shade of blue?

also brink back the older "ranger" sweater not this gay 3 button sweater, im gonna be wearing this thing one day too!!! (hopefully)

ok im going to bed..

[Right Seat Driver]

The old LeMay style did fade, my uncle has two service coats and put next to each other, the oldest one is nearly gray and the other blue, but it still was hardcore looking. Just bring back the LeMay style and the summer khakis. I don't want some male fashion experts designing a slimming uniform, just get back to the old school days and move on.

[Guest rotorhead]

Let's just get it all over with...we know where the whole thing is heading...

[Guest paperpusher]

Maybe this guy could help...

https://tlc.discovery.com/fansites/whatnott...us/clinton.html

[Hacker]

Originally posted by dbarbour:

there was a tradition, alright. But that effectively died with the Korean conflict. WWII was the high point... relatively simple machines flown by gutsy, gritty men with 5 o'clock shadows, nerves of steel, ready to fight in 5 minutes time... and no missiles... just a gun. These were men... in the shit, in the thick of the fight when you could see your opponents face.

<snip>

The trials they have endured are crazy compared to those of the Air Force. The USAF doesn't have any real enemy. No one flies against us. They bury their machines in the desert and instead choose to shoot missiles at us. We don't place an emphasis on raw fortitude and determination. The Air Force is not hardcore.

Brother, you are spewing a lot of trash for someone who isn't even in the club yet.

There are a metric sh*t load of USAF members who have fought with every drop of ferocity, aggressiveness, and bravery since Korea. The enemy sure as hell flew in Vietnam and Desert Storm -- and oh, by the way, those enemies killed USAF personnel who were fighting like hell to accomplish the mission. To dismiss their accomplishments as you have done is just ignorant.

I am guessing that you have never personally been shot at by a SAM. If you had, you would not have the unbelievably foolish opinion that staring down the barrel of a missile guiding on your aircraft is less warrior-like than having bullets whiz by your skull while carrying an M-16. How much experience do you have pulling the trigger against a living human on the other end, anyway?

[Guest sleepy]

Originally posted by pencilpusher:

Maybe this guy could help...

https://tlc.discovery.com/fansites/whatnott...us/clinton.html

First, how did you know about this guy?

Second, I'm ashamed to say I read it.

Third, at least I LMHAO at this:

Favorite splurge item:

Cashmere sweaters. Not only do they look and feel great, but they allow you to use the line, "Touch my chest, you fox, and tell me it isn't heaven. I dare you."

[Ill Destructor]

I'll quote myself:

And don't take offense to any of this. I speak mainly of the AF leadership's whiney, quivering, "let's play dress up" reputation... not of the men and women who are out there kickin' ass and takin' names.

You're absolutely right... not even in the club yet. But in my opinion, the Air Force as an organization has something less than a serious warrior reputation. I'm not knocking on the men and women who are flying and fighting their asses off with, as you say, "every drop of ferocity, aggressiveness, and bravery since Korea." I understand that and that's why I want a part of that. There is certainly a warrior spirit amongst those pulling the triggers. I'm just complaining about the "Chair Force" image that has been cultured during the last decade and a half or so.

Seriously, I have nothing but the utmost respect for the men and women who have put their lives on the line for God and country.

Just griping about today's persception of the military... it's no longer romantic as the technology has become the showcase.

Edit: And perhaps I should have said Vietnam instead of Korea. Sorry.

[ 11. August 2006, 12:08: Message edited by: dbarbour ]

[HerkDerka]

Originally posted by dbarbour:

And perhaps I should have said Vietnam instead of Korea. Sorry.

And perhaps you should quit digging yourself into a hole.

HD

[Guest paperpusher]

I can't take the credit for that clever post...my wife thought the new uniforms were so gay she recommended Mr. Kelly as a designer for future models.

[Whitman]

Originally posted by dbarbour:

Just griping about today's persception of the military... it's no longer romantic as the technology has become the showcase.

[/QB]

Great point....but leave the "s" out of perception next time.

Nobody can deny the pride and prestige that comes with being a Marine. You aren't a pilot, you aren't a grunt, you are a MARINE. With that comes pride, hertitage, trust, and honor. I wish the AF had that reputation and I agree that we are taking on a more chairforce image. IMHO, the Marines maintain their prestige because they showcase their people through a rigid, challenging, and professional screening and training program. I wonder what the AF would be like if we went to Marine TBS for 6 months (or the AF equivalent) instead of ASBC (6 weeks)

[ 11. August 2006, 19:15: Message edited by: whitman ]