Power Loss/engine Failure On Takeoff

[stingray]

What do you guys do to decide what to do when you lose power/have an engine failure on/shortly after takeoff? I fly GA and gliders and in gliders there's a set procedure based on altitudes agl for what to do if the rope breaks and I can never get a definite answer like that when it comes to flying planes.

Like I said I fly GA but feel free to talk about what you guys would do in jets too.

Thanks in advance,

Gannon

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

Most people would sum it up with a "that depends on...."

I know for single-engine aircraft, there are more concerns vs. what one one consider if they were a multi-engine aircraft.

1.) Can I glide back in....high-key/low-key, etc?

2.) Do I have the altitude to eject?

3.) Munitions over populated areas, etc.

You get the point...besides, each pilot should know their own ability and limitations.

However, my main concern as a multi-engine driver is climbout factor. In the C-17, it has proved itself to be able to takeoff max weight one engine inop and still maintain a positive climbout. Therefore, my main concern is altitude and airspeed control. I have a "warm fuzzy" based on repetitive simulator trials that an engine out takeoff and subsequent climbout shouldn't be a problem (note key word, shouldn't).

Again, as each situation is different, each decision is different. Hence the reason for a descent paycheck.

-Cheers

[Guest tmickel]

Depends on a lot of things, primarily based on the type of aircraft you're flying:

- How far off the ground you are

- How much time/altitude will it cost to do a 180 and land opposite direction

- How busy the airfield you took off from is (are you likely to exacerbate the problem by causing a mid-air if you try to reverse course)

- How many engines you have (big one, here!)

- If you have an ejection seat, and what the envelope is for said ejection seat

- The weather at your location (will you be able to see the field if you continue to climb to gain life-saving altitude)

- What's the ground look like along your takeoff route or immediate left or right (forest versus farmland)

Perhaps most importantly:

- What did you brief you would do before you stepped to the jet?

These are ideal situations to practice for before they actually happen. I remember when I was taking GA lessons we did a series of engine failure scenarios... We'd takeoff, the IP would pull my power back to idle, and we'd see what my options were. That way, if I genuinely lost an engine on takeoff, I'd be able to make an educated decision about whether to turn back or land straight ahead. Obviously not something you can practice in a glider though.

Obviously, if you're in a multi-engine and there's not any indication that you're going to lose all your engines, 99% of the time you're going to take it airborne and get vectored around (or enter the pattern if you're at an NTA) to put it back down.

[Buddy Spike]

ZOOM

STORES - JETT

EJECT

[jcollins]

Single engine GA, 1000 ft AGL decision height. Although I have done it successfully at ~700 ft or so (tailwind...).

[stingray]

Thanks for the advice guys, I guess after thinking about it there are some more variables in planes than in gliders, I think I might go up with an IP to pull the engine at different phases and see what it's like.

In gliders pre-solo you get in the glider and the IP pulls the tow release at 200 feet AGL, and you pitch way the hell down and do a 180, it's really fun.

Gannon

(edited for clarity)

Edited August 24, 2008 by gannon

[Guest regularjoe]

As everyone else above has said, you have too many unknown factors to give a solid answer to but typically if you are above v1 and cannot abort, and are to high to immediately decend back to the runway, you have to factor a lot of different things before making a good/bad decision.

One thing most GA IP's should tell you is that if you have an engine failure on a single engine - do not attempt to return to the runway as you will bleed way to much airspeed and altitude in the turn and have more options to use that energy to look for a better landing space in front of you.

[Wing Sweep]

It depends:

If I lose one, keep the other three in max AB.

If I lose two, keep the other two in max AB.

If I lose three, dump fuel and keep the one in max AB.

If I lose four, turn toward an unpopulated area and "EJECTION HANDLE-PULL"

Seriously.

[Guest tmickel]

Although I'm thinking if you lose three, you're probably assuming that last one is on its way out and starting to run the ejection checklist, no?

[Whitman]

One thing most GA IP's should tell you is that if you have an engine failure on a single engine - do not attempt to return to the runway as you will bleed way to much airspeed and altitude in the turn and have more options to use that energy to look for a better landing space in front of you.

I've heard that advice but disagree. It really depends on the airplane, altitude, and the pilot. Everyone who flies single engine should practice simulated engine failure after takeoff. Depending on the aircraft executing 180 is a viable option and can get you back on deck safely. The key is to unload the airplane in the turn. Many people have died trying to turn back to the airfield (that's why its common advice not to) because they start the 180 degree turn, while pulling back on the yoke to maintain level flight, and add a load factor to the wings in the turn which accelerates the stall, resulting in OCF at very low altitude. 500 AGL is the lowest I would try this maneuver in most airplanes as you lose a decent amount of altitude when unloading the aircraft.

Your head is in the right place Gannon, great question. Thinking about things like this ahead of time can safe your life. I recommend the flight you talked about with the IP pulling the engine. Good luck and be safe!

[Guest hawg030]

not to be an IFS tool but I have too,

Boldface Applies

Airspeed - 60 KIAS

Flaps - LDG

Edited August 25, 2008 by hawg030

[163 FS]

THROTTLES-MAX

GEAR-UP

STORES-JETTISON IF REQUIRED

FUEL FLOWS-OVERRIDE (unless you're Chuck Norris, then you are already in fuel flows overrride, the engine HOT lights are an indication of Maximum Thrust)

Wait till 2000' and 200 knots and start running checklists.

[jazzdude]

I'd argue that for single engine, returning is just a matter of figuring out the altitude you can safely turn back at.

Remember, to make it back to the same runway takes about 270 degrees of turn to get back...(180 to get to reciprocal heading, 45 to cut in towards centerline, and 45 to get aligned with the runway)

Here's an example (one my CFI had me go through during my private pilot training)

IIRC, descent rate in a Cessna 152 was around 500fpm. Gouge I was taught in civilian flying was that 20-30 degrees AOB, ~ SRT, gives you a good trade off between turn rate versus altitude loss (although for some reason, 45 degrees also sticks out in my head...)

Now just work backwards, need to turn 270 degrees, so that's about 1.5 min of turn, and with a descent rate is 500 fpm, you'd need about 750' AGL in the cessna to turn back.

Here at Whiting they pretty much teach the same thing; with a power loss on departure, don't turn back to the runway you just left. Anything forward of your wings should work. Other things to consider- do I have enough runway remaining to put it back down? can I make a different runway? do I have an open area ahead?

[Guest Cap-10]

During my private pilot training in college, I conducted such a ride (with an IP, pulling an engine, etc) and I determined that 1,000 AGL would work for me and my C-172...anything less and I was landing straight ahead.

Something else that has not been mentioned is turn direction. You should turn into the wind, attempting to keep you lateral displacement from the runway to a minimum. Turning downind in the turn back to the runway may put you too far laterally displaced that you may not be able to make it back to the runway with 16-19 knots in the face.

Cap-10

[HuggyU2]

Barry Schiff (www.barryschiff.com) did a good article within the last couple of years dealing with engine failure on takeoff in single engine GA aircraft. It was published in "AOPA Pilot". Find it.

[Guest gonzo]

Crap myself, give PNF the aircraft, recompose, take aircraft, full rudder trim into the good engines.

Crap myself, give PNF the aircraft, recompose, take aircraft, full rudder trim into the good engines.

[stingray]

Barry Schiff (www.barryschiff.com) did a good article within the last couple of years dealing with engine failure on takeoff in single engine GA aircraft. It was published in "AOPA Pilot". Find it.

Thanks, I looked for a long time for it in the proficient pilot section on the online archives and I couldn't find it but I found some interesting stuff. I have to go to sleep but I'll keep looking tomorrow and post a link once i find it.

Gannon

[dmeg130]

For grins in the Lear sim, we used to do dual-engine flameout on takeoff. Turned 45 degrees off runway heading, then 225 back around pulling to the stick-shaker and blowing the gear down. Could do it at about 500' with practice.

Stalling the plane is almost always fatal. Landing straight ahead may be ugly, but somebody usually walks away. Know what you're going to do before you run it up. Don't quit flying the plane, even when the 'green screen' is coming.

[stract]

Autorotate.

[JeepGuyC17]

... Hence the reason for a descent paycheck.

The climb and cruise paychecks aren't bad either

[Guest Tip Tank]

For grins in the Lear sim, we used to do dual-engine flameout on takeoff. Turned 45 degrees off runway heading, then 225 back around pulling to the stick-shaker and blowing the gear down. Could do it at about 500' with practice.

That sounds like a G-Heart profile...

[Guest regularjoe]

I've heard that advice but disagree. It really depends on the airplane, altitude, and the pilot. Everyone who flies single engine should practice simulated engine failure after takeoff. Depending on the aircraft executing 180 is a viable option and can get you back on deck safely. The key is to unload the airplane in the turn. Many people have died trying to turn back to the airfield (that's why its common advice not to) because they start the 180 degree turn, while pulling back on the yoke to maintain level flight, and add a load factor to the wings in the turn which accelerates the stall, resulting in OCF at very low altitude. 500 AGL is the lowest I would try this maneuver in most airplanes as you lose a decent amount of altitude when unloading the aircraft.

I agree with you in principle but you have to remember that the majority of students that get the "don't return to runway" instruction have very little time in an aircraft and we are looking at it from the perspective of knowing our aircraft and what they can do and thinking way ahead of the plane in an emergency, ie the advantage of experience. I would comfortably say that 90% of new pilots are better off looking for somewhere soft or a frontage road directly in front of them rather than trying to calculate everything we have talked about such as winds, altitude left, decent rates etc...

These days if I had an engine out in a single engine Cessna, very likely I would attempt to return to the runway, back when I first started flying... well probably then too but I'm guessing I would have had greatly different results.

[Wing Sweep]

Although I'm thinking if you lose three, you're probably assuming that last one is on its way out and starting to run the ejection checklist, no?

No assumptions. You have a good engine until proven otherwise. If I lose the last one, then yes, eject.

My jet will fly on one engine, though not a recommended technique.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

Ahhhh.....

G-Heart....FTFA!!!!

What a character!!

[LJDRVR]

Gannon,

In the airplane I currently fly, there are three takeoff environments:

Low-Speed - (Less than 100 KIAS)

In a low speed environment, we brief that we'll reject for anything.

High-Speed (100KIAS to V1)

We'll stop only for power loss or confirmed engine fire. (Clanging bells and flashing red lights do not necessarily mean fire.)

Post V1

We're going flying no matter what. Engine failure? Normal rotation after a healthy dose of rudder to about 13 degrees nose up, followed by a climb at V2 to V2 + 15.

Now, for your benefit, let's discuss the real question at hand, decision making in a single engine GA airplane after engine failure.

I hope you realize the amazing breadth of aviation experience, both in terms of flight time and disparate airplanes flown that have already answered your question. I'm honored to add my two cents worth. The advice of practicing the turnaround with a CFI is excellent, as was the recommendation that you peruse Barry Schiff's article. I'll get a copy and post it. Barry also addressed the issue on video, demonstrating the results in a Cessna Cardinal. If you know of anybody with ABC's Wide World of Flying, you'll find it there. A key point to remember is that if you intend to align yourself with the runway you just departed from, you are actually accomplishing closer to a 360 degree turn.

I've had an engine failure in a single engine airplane after takeoff and walked away (swam actually) from the accident.

Here's my take:

Wally Miller, my primary instrument instructor years ago, used to say every time we took the runway:

"Today's the day the engine quits."

Although I used to get marginally annoyed at that comment, turns out he's right!

I was conductiong primary training in a student-owned airplane, a 48' Stinson Stationwagon. The student was performing his last takeoff before we RTB'd. The airport was a grass runway, about three thousand feet long, surrounded by water on three sides, with unsuitable terrain on the fourth. At about 800 feet or so during the climb-out, the engine began to run very, very rough, essentially producing no power.

I took the airplane from the student, and simultaneously applied carb heat and executed a forty degree bank to the left. (I knew instinctively I had enough energy to make the turn.)

Unfortunately, there was a good bit of wind from runway heading and by the time I had made the turn, there was not enough runway in front of me. I decided to aim for the beach south of the runway across from a marina, or make another turn to align myself with the runway. (I wasn't entirely certain yet how much thrust I had.)

By the time I had reached the approach end of the runway two things had become very apparent. I didn't have enough smash or altitude to make another turn. I also didn't have enough smash or altitude to make the beach.

So...I turned between two rows of docks and set the airplane down in a full-stall, three-point attitude in the lake.

The airplane flipped and filled with water in much less time than it took you to read this sentence.

I egressed (Read that swum out of) the airplane and yelled for my student the moment my face broke water. His shout back was one of the very sweetest sounds I've ever heard. He was in a bit of shock over the destruction of airplane and the predicament in which he know found himself. I was simply happy he was OK and knew I had done everything I could. I also suggested strongly that we get the hell out of the cold lake. After I climbed out, I watched him struggle in vain to pull himself onto the dock. The ironic thing was that beforehand, I'd jokingly tell students:

"We'll shoot for the beach if the engine quits. If we have to ditch, I used to be a lifeguard, I'll pull you out."

As I pulled him out of the water I thought:

"Christ, who the fcuk was listening to that crap?"

It took every ounce of strength I had left.

I learned a couple of things that December day many years ago.

The urge to turn back is very, very strong. You'd better have a plan before every single takeoff you perform. Maybe that takes some of the fun and spontaneity out of aviation for you, but then again, so does getting killed. Brief what you'll do every single time.

Shoulder harnesses saved our lives. My J-3 has em' and I won't fly any airplane without them.

In that type of IFE, things happen very, very quickly. Again, harping on my previous point, you'd better have done a little thinking and some hangar flying for any scenario that might happen close to the ground. Things turned out OK for us, but that doesn't negate some careful and honest Monday morning quarterbacking on my part. Should I have turned my head to address what was behind me before I commited to the turn? Yep. Your glider training will help you develop that awareness, unfortunately at the time I hadn't yet flown sailplanes. Would I have been better off landing straight ahead? Possibly. I was able to successfully ditch, but I was operating in a very low region of energy without any options or room for less than perfect technique. Thank God the Stinson had slats! I kept really good roll control right up to the end. Fortunately, I flew my A-game that day, which brings up another point:

You never know when the real checkride is coming. You'd better be prepared, because it's pass/fail with much worse consequence than any pink slip. There's not a poster on this thread who puts food on the table with stick and rudder who hasn't buried at least one friend.

I've lost three and any of them could have just as easily been me.

What I'm trying to say is that you're only as good as your last flight. Keep working hard at your craft, no matter how long you've been doing it.

The fact that even as a novice you are seeking out additional information speaks volumes about your airmanship. Please, keep that "beginner's mind" and never stop asking questions.

PS - The Stinson's engine failure was the number six connectiong rod shattering. Ran perfect right up until it failed. Bob Hoover tells folks:

"Fly the airplane as far into the crash as you can"

Turns out he's right, too! The only injury I have from the accident is a small scar on the back of my hand from where it came off the controls and impacted something on the instrument panel during the deceleration. I'm sort of proud of that scar - I was still flying the airplane. I often look at it before takeoff and tell myself "today's the day."