Blues on Monday

[Jughead]

True, but that is a slippery slope. Does this mean that each incoming CSAF needs to re-validate every single AFI out there? Is 11-202v3 null and void after a change of command until the incoming CSAF blesses it? I agree that it could have been worded more directly, but I also don't think that you should read THAT deeply into it.

That's exactly my point. More accurately, that was Spoo's point. My Google-fu is failing me, but I seem to recall Spoo posting a "WTF?" comment about that when the circumstances of the policy rescission (ie , response to a question at a "town hall"-type meeting) were announced....

[xaarman]

Blues Monday is literally Schwartz's legacy.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Blues Monday is literally Schwartz's legacy.

PT program too, don't forget that. The two biggest morale killers we've had in quite a while.

Edit: Are we still even allowed to say that name?

Edited January 18, 2013 by Napoleon_Tanerite

[HercDude]

Any idea what took so long? Also, where else is blues monday not died it's horrible death!

Pretty sure FE Warren is still doing it. Don't know if it's all of Global Strike or just that base though.

[daynightindicator]

EDIT: I would have LOVED for this to be the case, and to have the PT reg slip through the cracks. I really wish Welsh would address the joke that is the AF PT program. Killing the FAC was a good first step, but this idiotic emphasis on PT needs to go away. (yes, I am a fatass).

You do realize that the point of the AF PT test/program is to ultimately lower Tricare costs, right? I'm not going to weigh in on whether that's the right focus for the program (not trying to derail the thread), but the reason we paid some scientician a bunch of money to develop such a ridiculous test, was to categorize someone's health risk and provide an incentive (i don't think that's really working) to improve their personal long-term preventative health. Supposedly, if the AF can move more people into the moderate or low risk category through their PT program, both short and long-term Tricare costs would be reduced.

I hate the BS PT stuff as much as the next guy and I'm certainly no workout freak, but I think a lot of people don't really understand the point of it. It was never supposed to act as a "battlefield/combat readiness" test or anything like that.

Not picking on you either - I also hope Welsh concentrates on more important issues. I heard that when he spoke at WEPTAC, he promised masters/PME guidance within 3-6 months and reiterated his stand that chasing box-checking masters and double-tapping PME is dumb.

[nsplayr]

I don't think the point was that he was against PT as a concept in general (at least I don't think so). We're in the military, not the girl scouts, so we should be doing PT and there should be a test.

My problem with all the PT shenanigans under the previous regime was the implicit lack of trust in creating the FAC, making civilians test us, then doing away with that in part when it was unworkable, etc. etc. etc. How about I, as a UFPM, test my squadron and if I help anyone cheat or lie on any forms you give me an Article 15 and show me the door. I'm given the keys (proverbially) to multimillion-dollar jets but can't be trusted not to lie on a freakin' PT test?

That part of the reg we could do without.

[daynightindicator]

I don't think the point was that he was against PT as a concept in general (at least I don't think so). We're in the military, not the girl scouts, so we should be doing PT and there should be a test.

My problem with all the PT shenanigans under the previous regime was the implicit lack of trust in creating the FAC, making civilians test us, then doing away with that in part when it was unworkable, etc. etc. etc. How about I, as a UFPM, test my squadron and if I help anyone cheat or lie on any forms you give me an Article 15 and show me the door. I'm given the keys (proverbially) to multimillion-dollar jets but can't be trusted not to lie on a freakin' PT test?

That part of the reg we could do without.

Yeah sorry Napoleon if I missed your point - just wanted to edumacate folks if they didn't know why Big Blue has such a ridiculous PT program. I honestly didn't know that was the point of it until I read an article. For the record I think it's a dumb way to try and save money and as usual, the implementation is terrible.

Agreed on the FAC and lack of trust in general. Even now, with airmen monitoring the test, we've had issues with power-tripping NCOs not counting reps, etc, and failing people for no really good reason (people who can easily pass the test and are in good shape).

I would love to see Welsh address the castration of the officer corps (led by senior officers) and cultivate a culture where CGOs can actually LEAD and are trusted with this crazy thing called responsibility.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

You do realize that the point of the AF PT test/program is to ultimately lower Tricare costs, right? I'm not going to weigh in on whether that's the right focus for the program (not trying to derail the thread), but the reason we paid some scientician a bunch of money to develop such a ridiculous test, was to categorize someone's health risk and provide an incentive (i don't think that's really working) to improve their personal long-term preventative health. Supposedly, if the AF can move more people into the moderate or low risk category through their PT program, both short and long-term Tricare costs would be reduced.

I hate the BS PT stuff as much as the next guy and I'm certainly no workout freak, but I think a lot of people don't really understand the point of it. It was never supposed to act as a "battlefield/combat readiness" test or anything like that.

Not picking on you either - I also hope Welsh concentrates on more important issues. I heard that when he spoke at WEPTAC, he promised masters/PME guidance within 3-6 months and reiterated his stand that chasing box-checking masters and double-tapping PME is dumb.

Nothing is free. We're going to trade obesity related problems for orthopedic injuries. Any I'm not against PT and being generally healthy; however, as was highlighted the inherent message of the FAC was insulting. Furthermore, something is bad wrong with our priorities when the PT test is one of the biggest career killer out there. I doubt causing a Class A mishap would do more damage to my career than failing a few PT tests.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Napoleon_Tanerite

[ThreeHoler]

Nothing is free. We're going to trade obesity related problems for orthopedic injuries. Any I'm not against PT and being generally healthy; however, as was highlighted the inherent message of the FAC was insulting. Furthermore, something is bad wrong with our priorities when the PT test is one of the biggest career killer out there. I doubt causing a Class A mishap would do more damage to my career than failing a few PT tests.

Sq/CC here was fired for failing his PT test.

I know many people involved in various Class mishaps at varying levels of causality...nearly all of them are still in.

[magnetfreezer]

You do realize that the point of the AF PT test/program is to ultimately lower Tricare costs, right? I'm not going to weigh in on whether that's the right focus for the program (not trying to derail the thread), but the reason we paid some scientician a bunch of money to develop such a ridiculous test, was to categorize someone's health risk and provide an incentive (i don't think that's really working) to improve their personal long-term preventative health. Supposedly, if the AF can move more people into the moderate or low risk category through their PT program, both short and long-term Tricare costs would be reduced.

I hate the BS PT stuff as much as the next guy and I'm certainly no workout freak, but I think a lot of people don't really understand the point of it. It was never supposed to act as a "battlefield/combat readiness" test or anything like that.

Not picking on you either - I also hope Welsh concentrates on more important issues. I heard that when he spoke at WEPTAC, he promised masters/PME guidance within 3-6 months and reiterated his stand that chasing box-checking masters and double-tapping PME is dumb.

Most of the Tricare cost issue is the 20+ years of a large number of retirees. Unless we keep a PT test to keep the checks coming, people are still free to get fat the second they get out if that's what they tend toward.

[Everybody Knows]

Go back to testing once a year for all, just like we did our first 60 years. Get rid of the damn waist measurement and for FFS, get it off the damn OPR. I'll repeat an earlier comment, the new eval reg recently came out and under the description of the 707 it still has PT shit prominently highlighted.......so, nothing appears to have changed in that regard.

If you go back to that e-mail that the CSAF sent out 17 days ago, it said that in a "couple of weeks" he would be giving us new expectations for career stuff and that it might include changes to the ways things are currently done. Well, 17 days is more than a couple of weeks. Mean what you say, and do what you say you're going to do. Also watch what people do, not what they say they're going to do. I'll readily admit I'm wrong if is any meaningful change, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Techsan]

Sq/CC here was fired for failing his PT test.

There had to have been other contributors. Left coast or right?

[schokie]

Saw that happen here as well. Great dude, respected leader, WIC grad, but he failed his test and was fired the next day. Happened about a year and a half ago.

[R-Dub]

There had to have been other contributors.

No there doesn't. A SQ/CC from Lakenheath was fired a few years ago for failing a PT test.

[Champ Kind]

There had to have been other contributors.

Is your head really that deep in the sand?

[guineapigfury]

There had to have been other contributors. Left coast or right?

Doubtful. I know someone who got a LOC for failing a PT test because he sprained his ankle during the run. We are officially at full retard with this PT stuff.

[Gravedigger]

We have had two SQ/CCs fired at my base in the last two years for failing PFTs. In both cases they were terrible leaders and commanders in general, so I was happy to see them go. If you can't pass our easy ass PFT, you shouldn't be a squadron commander, in my opinion. I find PT failures to be symptomatic of bigger issues. I have very rarely seen someone fail a PFT that had every other aspect of their life squared away.

[Techsan]

Is your head really that deep in the sand?

The sand here is very shallow, so no, my head is not that deep in the sand. I guess I still can't wrap my head around squadron commanders getting shit canned for something as stupid as a fitness test. I can see being fired for about a hundred other things, however the fitness test should not be one of them.

Oh, and when will people realize that if you get hurt for whatever reason during your test, you should immediately stop the test. Or, if some over eager test proctor wants to play God with your career and attempt to give you a failure that is questionable, to not sign your damn scoresheet. Once you sign that piece of paper, it makes the commander's job that much harder to fight off the failure.

[Champ Kind]

I can see being fired for about a hundred other things, however the fitness test should not be one of them.

Completely agree, but I am not surprised at all that it happened given our current insane culture.

I find PT failures to be symptomatic of bigger issues. I have very rarely seen someone fail a PFT that had every other aspect of their life squared away.

Funniest thing I've read all week. Seriously, LOL.

Thanks for that.

[Jughead]

I have very rarely seen someone fail a PFT that had every other aspect of their life squared away.

Choke yourself.

[Gravedigger]

Funniest thing I've read all week. Seriously, LOL.

Thanks for that.

You're welcome. I don't understand WTF is wrong with wanting people in the military to be in mediocre shape. Nobody says you have to get a 100, but if you can't haul your fatass around a track in 13 something minutes and do 30+ pushups and situps, you should find your way into a profession that doesn't have fitness standards.

There are a million things I find retarded about the Air Force, holding people to a fitness standard is not one of them. Mandatory unit PT is one of those retarded things. The waist measurement is one of those retarded things too, no doubt, but very few people fail only for waist measurement. In the last two years, my unit had 18 failures, not a single one failed just because of waist measurement.

Choke yourself.

Don't worry, you're perfect for mall security. You might even get to ride a Segway...walking is tiring.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Gravedigger

[Azimuth]

Most of the people I've seen fail the PT test were skinny guys that either couldn't run or couldn't do sit-ups. However a Sq/CC, who has the authority to give referral OPR/EPR's for PT test failures to subordinates, should be fired for failing their own PT test.

[Jughead]

[a bunch of stuff that's easy to agree with about military personnel staying in shape]

OK, fine--but, that's not what you (rather ignorantly) said. What you said was:

I find PT failures to be symptomatic of bigger issues. I have very rarely seen someone fail a PFT that had every other aspect of their life squared away.

[the second sentence of which I quoted].

So, you "find" PT failures be symptomatic of bigger issues, and have "very rarely" seen people fail who are otherwise squared away. I submit that you're basing your "findings" on a rather small sample size. We are showing some screwed up people the door with a PT failure as the mechanism to do so, no doubt--but we're also depriving ourselves of some talented folks who, for whatever reason, can't pass the PT test. Have you honestly never met anyone who's got his shit together, can max the pushups & situps without breaking a sweat and can do the run in a decent time... but whose waist is >39" and therefore an auto-fail...? Call me back when you know some more people over 30....

[Gravedigger]

So, you "find" PT failures be symptomatic of bigger issues, and have "very rarely" seen people fail who are otherwise squared away. I submit that you're basing your "findings" on a rather small sample size.

I am basing my findings on the stats from my wing. What I remember from my two previous bases lines up pretty closely with what I see at my current base.

but we're also depriving ourselves of some talented folks who, for whatever reason, can't pass the PT test. Have you honestly never met anyone who's got his shit together, can max the pushups & situps without breaking a sweat and can do the run in a decent time... but whose waist is >39" and therefore an auto-fail...?

No, I have personally not ever seen that. I have several friends that have failed PFTs, hell my wife once failed her PFT. All of them learned from it, got to the gym and passed with flying colors on their next test. My wife had an OPR closing out during her failure, so she got permission to re-test two weeks later and got a 90. You don't get kicked out of the Air Force for one failure. The squadron commanders that were fired are still in the Air Force. However, you can't hold people to a standard you can't meet yourself, so as a SQ/CC you can't fail, period. I am not saying that people with one failure in their career don't have their feces consolidated. I am talking about the people that fail every other test, or fail three then pass one to avoid separation. Those people, in my experience, aren't hard working or aren't motivated or are always late or have a lot of financial difficulty or have difficulty managing their lives in general.

Maybe your experiences are different.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Gravedigger

[pcola]

In the minority, I know, but I tend to agree with gravedigger here. What is so hard about passing the PT test? Its not like they are giving no-notice fit tests. And as a CC, how can you uphold the standard if you can't meet it? This should be a non-issue in an AF with so many actually fucked up policies.