Blues on Monday

[capt4fans]

1. AF PT gear IS a uniform - it's in the AFI.

2. AF PT uniform wear in the gym, for everyone, at all times, is mandated at some stateside bases (including mine). I'm not at an AETC base, either.

3. It's already been pointed out that at some desert-type locations, saluting in PT gear is mandated by written policy.

Sorry, I got to this discssion late...let me point you to page 24 of AFI 36-2903 where it refers to "Figure 2.6. Men’s and Women’s Physical Fitness Gear (PT)."

I could be wrong, but I think gear is different than Uniform.

Rant off.

[abmwaldo]

You guys lost me with references to flight boots, can we wear boots with blues?

I'm with the abm'er (no offense, but words I never thought I'd type) how the fvck am I going to live in Alaska in winter in blues?

None taken.

Quick question... have you been "corrected" for wearing an extra sweatshirt or sweatpants while walking to the gym in the winter? Makes me want to face plant the offender in one of the 12 foot snow piles. Last time I checked, even the mighty polyester PT shirt which manages to trap all heat doesn't cut it at -10 degrees.

Edited September 5, 2008 by abmwaldo

[M2]

Luckily, some of us get to wear Dockers and knit shirts to work on Monday. Oh, and I don't have to shave either! Get your 20 in, and you too can laugh all you want at ridiculous policies such as this one!

And, despite the anticipation, I think this proves we've got another CSAF whose priorities are FUBAR'd! How wearing blues establishes a "war-fighting ethos" is beyond my caveman mental capacities. If anyone can figure this out, please chare!

Cheers! M2

[afnav]

Latest word from STRAT is that ALL services will have to wear a service uniform on Mondays starting on 15 Sep.

If an Air Force general can do that here, I guess the other COCOMs will have to do it, too, especially if they are at an Air Force installation.

I wonder if this is any indication that all the services are going to jump on the Air Force bandwagon.

[Guest Smoke_Jaguar4]

Luckily, some of us get to wear Dockers and knit shirts to work on Monday. Oh, and I don't have to shave either! Get your 20 in, and you too can laugh all you want at ridiculous policies such as this one!

And, despite the anticipation, I think this proves we've got another CSAF whose priorities are FUBAR'd! How wearing blues establishes a "war-fighting ethos" is beyond my caveman mental capacities. If anyone can figure this out, please chare!

Cheers! M2

I'm cross posting this from airforceots.com:

His priorities aren't FUBAR'd. General Schwartz and SECDEF Donley took over because the last guys got FIRED. The Air Force has gotten sloppy because of a culture of complacency. It's become OK to pick and choose which rules we follow, which ones we somewhat comply with, and which ones we outright ignore. Due to this we've had the recent mishaps which in turn have reduced civilian leadership's confidence in our abilty to execute.

Enter General Schwartz with his 'back to basics' philosophy, and he means it literally. There's nothing more basic in the military than uniforms. The rules are clear: All airmen must have a proper set of Blues. We give enlisted members extra money every year to keep their uniforms up to date, and officers are expected to comply out of professional duty.

Due to the culture of complacency, however, there are way too many airmen who are not meeting this standard. The CSAF is sending a message: either you're meeting standards, or you're not; and if you're not you will be held accountable. This is why there was no 'grace period' with this directive. If you can't even dress yourself per USAF standards, then what other standards are you blowing off? And why should we trust you with the real stuff that breaks stuff and kills people?

I would not be surprised if commanders are getting separate guidance not to abuse the exception clause. As others here have mentioned, unless you're flying or turning a wrench, you better have a damned good reason not to be in Blues on Monday. "I don't have one" or "It doesn't fit" won't cut it.

Change is coming, and it's gonna suck. Check that - Change is HERE, and it's sucking.

SJ4

[MD]

Airforceots.com.....lol. Didn't know the place had its own website. Once there was good enough.

If you can't even dress yourself per USAF standards, then what other standards are you blowing off? And why should we trust you with the real stuff that breaks stuff and kills people?

SJ4

Sieg heil to you too Mr SJ4. I wore white socks every day for the 11 years I flew Hogs and Hawks, and so far as I remember, my munitions hit where I wanted them to, when I needed them to. Heck, I've taxiied at night inside of 300' before catching it, have descended below MDA when I thought I had some semblance of runway environment, exceeded 300 kts below 10k outside an MTR, scrambled in questionable wx in order to make a GCAS request, etc, etc, same shit everyone else here has done at one point or another.......some stuff is just an operational need or event. Mr Literal above needs to lighten up a bit on the cherry kool aid. Then again, I have to remember....airforceots.com.

[Guest flyingstix101]

Recently heard the squadron's new blues policy to comply with the CSAF's email. In a nutshell, those not flying or in sims on Mondays will wear blues. Well, that would get annoying if you weren't flying and showed up to work on Monday in blues thinking you're not on the schedule and then....oops. As a BIT student 91+ days from IFF, I probably won't fly every Monday, but who's to say that I won't get lucky and get a flight at the last minute? I'm staying in bags!

Personally, it sounds like Gen Schwartz was not a fan of some of Gen Moseley's policies i.e. reorganizing MX under Ops, new service dress, uniform wear post 9/11 etc.....or else he was told to change it by his new boss

Edited September 5, 2008 by flyingstix101

[HerkFE]

Thank God I'm a Reservist....

"Hey, we really need you to come in on Monday to help us get ready for this ASEV."

"Will I have to wear my blues?"

"Well you aren't FLYING so...."

"Sorry"

[Cooter]

You know what, I have 64 days of leave. I'm pretty sure that I'll be taking every monday off until those are gone. This is the most unfncking believable ting ever. Are they trying to make a point...then what the hell is it. No offense but WE (flyers) are not the same as Amn Snuffleufugus. Yes we're all important and have to make veryone feel they are as such but in the words of a great man...YGBSM!!!!!!!!!!!

Cooter

BTW Ribbons on blue uniforms except service dress...GAY!

[Guest Smoke_Jaguar4]

Airforceots.com.....lol. Didn't know the place had its own website. Once there was good enough.

Sieg heil to you too Mr SJ4. I wore white socks every day for the 11 years I flew Hogs and Hawks, and so far as I remember, my munitions hit where I wanted them to, when I needed them to. Heck, I've taxiied at night inside of 300' before catching it, have descended below MDA when I thought I had some semblance of runway environment, exceeded 300 kts below 10k outside an MTR, scrambled in questionable wx in order to make a GCAS request, etc, etc, same shit everyone else here has done at one point or another.......some stuff is just an operational need or event. Mr Literal above needs to lighten up a bit on the cherry kool aid. Then again, I have to remember....airforceots.com.

If you can do all these amazing things (and I'm not being sarcastic), then you should have no problem grabbing a blue shirt, ironing it, throw on some pins and epaulets in the right places, shining some black shoes, and putting it all on with some polyester pants one day a week. Is this really too much to ask for?

[MD]

If you can do all these amazing things (and I'm not being sarcastic), then you should have no problem grabbing a blue shirt, ironing it, throw on some pins and epaulets in the right places, shining some black shoes, and putting it all on with some polyester pants one day a week. Is this really too much to ask for?

As a part-timer, yes it is. It's my choice what BS I put up with and when I put up with it anymore

Seriously though, its just more needless ass-pain always having to have two uniforms available (blues and flightsuit) in order to change into if one gets tossed on the schedule on said Monday. And too, it's trying to solve a problem by doing something completely unrelated to the problem at hand. We have some sort of looks or heritage problem? How's wearing the blues uniform going to solve that? How about doing our jobs well first before worrying about looks. How about getting rid of some of the uber-PC crap thats prevelant, ala that described in the Dumbness in the Deid thread Point is, as others have mentioned, we have FAR more pressing issues going on that a BS uniform change isn't doing anything for and is a waste of time considering, IMHO.

Its looking more and more like the emperor has no clothes.

[MD]

Concur, but I suggest we all do it to make a point...

Agree. We could be the pride and envy of 3rd world banana republic air forces the world over by doing that.

Can we as an Air Force do any more to keep our place as laughing stock of the other services? On second thought, I better not ask that.

[MD]

Do you mean looking like a laughingstock because we wear blues one day a week or because we're a bunch of whining prima donnas who bitch about wearing blues one day a week?

That blues or not is such a hotbed issue at all. Maybe alls well with everything else in the AF and we just don't know it?

[HERK_Nav]

Do you mean looking like a laughingstock because we wear blues one day a week or because we're a bunch of whining prima donnas who bitch about wearing blues one day a week?

SO.... BuddhaSixFour. What is your job, again? Did you say UAV game player or was that Exec of a UAV squadron.

As the rest of the bag wearers have said on this thread it is stupid and meaningless. If I walk into scheds and find out that another bro fell out for something and I have to take his line what am I supposed to do? Run home and change or maybe I can roll my bag up and stuff it in my gym bag with my "PT Gear" and reflective belt.

We will comply with the policy. But we will do it the Ops way.

[MD]

If I thought he spent more than 20 minutes talking about it, and had someone draft a memo that Schwartz maybe spent 10 minutes proofreading, I'd say it was a major waste of his time. If everyone else wants to resist it and waste their own time and energy they could be spending on other things, then that's their choice. I'd say that if officer rot is so deep that your Chief of Staff can't get you to wear a required uniform one day a week, then that is a major issue that requires attention.

Id venture to say that there are FAR more pressing issues to solve with the concept of officer rot than a uniform issue. I don't condone curing a headache by cutting off the head. That said, whats the pressing issue? Is there a problem with our current uniform wear and how we all as an Air Force wear it? People work, they wear utilities. People attend functions or special events, they wear blues or service dress. Is it the "when" that's a problem...ie not wearing blues enough? Or are people looking like crap in the uniforms they're wearing now? Fix the problem at hand......if there even is one. But hey, that's how people get ahead....create a problem, then devise the solution for that problem.

[Vetter]

The Air Force has gotten sloppy because of a culture of complacency.

This quote should piss off every single operator on this board. I've been flying for almost 5 years and I have never, ever seen this "culture of complacency". If there is a culture of complacency, it exists among the REMF, who I have to back up everytime they mess up a travel voucher, "forget" to submit paperwork so I can get my orders, or come up with some other bullshit ancillary training program I have to take. Which leads me to the real "culture" that the Air Force is exhibiting...

A caveat here, I was a FAIP and I just entered ACC. Nonetheless, I have never in my life seen more overworked professionals in my life. Even in AETC, I have almost 70 days of leave built up and I am one of the ones the with least amount. 12 hour days are the norm. Why is this? It's because we have to deal with all the other extraneous bullshit that takes away from our main duty, which is to "Fly, Fight, and Win". So, if anything, the people in the Air Force who put their pink fleshies out on the line everyday (the operators, not the 9-5 REMFs) suffer from anything but a "culture of complacency"...it's more of a "culture of being worn out flying worn out equipment".

So fuck you for saying that my buddies and I are enthralled in your "culture of complacency". All the problems will be fixed when we get our priorities straight...

[RASH]

This quote should piss off every single operator on this board. I've been flying for almost 5 years and I have never, ever seen this "culture of complacency". If there is a culture of complacency, it exists among the REMF, who I have to back up everytime they mess up a travel voucher, "forget" to submit paperwork so I can get my orders, or come up with some other bullshit ancillary training program I have to take. Which leads me to the real "culture" that the Air Force is exhibiting...

A caveat here, I was a FAIP and I just entered ACC. Nonetheless, I have never in my life seen more overworked professionals in my life. Even in AETC, I have almost 70 days of leave built up and I am one of the ones the with least amount. 12 hour days are the norm. Why is this? It's because we have to deal with all the other extraneous bullshit that takes away from our main duty, which is to "Fly, Fight, and Win". So, if anything, the people in the Air Force who put their pink fleshies out on the line everyday (the operators, not the 9-5 REMFs) suffer from anything but a "culture of complacency"...it's more of a "culture of being worn out flying worn out equipment".

So ###### you for saying that my buddies and I are enthralled in your "culture of complacency". All the problems will be fixed when we get our priorities straight...

2

[Guest tentoad]

I think the ARTs wearing the uniform issue may heat up on Monday in my unit.

[slacker]

I think the ARTs wearing the uniform issue may heat up on Monday in my unit.

I think this will open the ART mandatory uniform issue again for sure. I think I might be Mr. on Mondays.

This thread has some ridiculous posts and some ridiculous posters.

[Guest 10MAN]

This quote should piss off every single operator on this board. I've been flying for almost 5 years and I have never, ever seen this "culture of complacency". If there is a culture of complacency, it exists among the REMF, who I have to back up everytime they mess up a travel voucher, "forget" to submit paperwork so I can get my orders, or come up with some other bullshit ancillary training program I have to take. Which leads me to the real "culture" that the Air Force is exhibiting...

A caveat here, I was a FAIP and I just entered ACC. Nonetheless, I have never in my life seen more overworked professionals in my life. Even in AETC, I have almost 70 days of leave built up and I am one of the ones the with least amount. 12 hour days are the norm. Why is this? It's because we have to deal with all the other extraneous bullshit that takes away from our main duty, which is to "Fly, Fight, and Win". So, if anything, the people in the Air Force who put their pink fleshies out on the line everyday (the operators, not the 9-5 REMFs) suffer from anything but a "culture of complacency"...it's more of a "culture of being worn out flying worn out equipment".

So ###### you for saying that my buddies and I are enthralled in your "culture of complacency". All the problems will be fixed when we get our priorities straight...

You are wise beyond your years, young man. Keep it up.

[HerkDerka]

This quote should piss off every single operator on this board. I've been flying for almost 5 years and I have never, ever seen this "culture of complacency". If there is a culture of complacency, it exists among the REMF, who I have to back up everytime they mess up a travel voucher, "forget" to submit paperwork so I can get my orders, or come up with some other bullshit ancillary training program I have to take. Which leads me to the real "culture" that the Air Force is exhibiting...

A caveat here, I was a FAIP and I just entered ACC. Nonetheless, I have never in my life seen more overworked professionals in my life. Even in AETC, I have almost 70 days of leave built up and I am one of the ones the with least amount. 12 hour days are the norm. Why is this? It's because we have to deal with all the other extraneous bullshit that takes away from our main duty, which is to "Fly, Fight, and Win". So, if anything, the people in the Air Force who put their pink fleshies out on the line everyday (the operators, not the 9-5 REMFs) suffer from anything but a "culture of complacency"...it's more of a "culture of being worn out flying worn out equipment".

So fuck you for saying that my buddies and I are enthralled in your "culture of complacency". All the problems will be fixed when we get our priorities straight...

2

HD

[Alpharatz]

At one time on the Sunday of drills everybody had to be in blues unless they were on alert. I never heard anyone complain mainly I think because all of the crew dogs...booms...navs...pilots etc. had their own employees who were constantly snorting and complaining to THEM about every nickel dime thing in sight. SO..I guess it doesn't seem unreasonable to have your people wear pants, a shirt, and a set of wings rank and a name tag (not even a tie) to work once a week. It wasn't unheard of to fly in blues in a pinch...rare but not unheard of. From all accounts this Schwartz is a pretty stand up guy. Give him a break for Christ sake. Are you all SO ticked off at your leadership that nothing they ask of you is acceptable? By the way, I love it when really young guys take on the crowd. In fact I encourage it. Of course when flying you toe the line. What am I missing here? Sure to soon find out.

[Guest Cap-10]

YGBFSM!

I currently fly a desk, and my division is about 50-50 flyers and non-flyers (ATC/Airspace/Intel/ATO Tech, etc). We all currently wear flight suits or BDU/ABU's. When we exercise (which for us is like every other month), most of the people work 12-14 hr shifts, while some of us (myself included) work 18 hours shifts (and I am not exagerating in the least, I work 1800 to 1100-1200 every day). Making me wear blues is not going to get me to work harder (STS) becuase I am back to the basic uniform.

The thing that pisses people of the most if that, with all the problems going on in this Air Force that is fighting two wars with old arse airplanes and losing people to the civilian world left and right, is that the first major decree the new boss puts out is 'Blues Monday', something that does the square root of f@ck all to address the previously mentioned problems. If nothing else was going on, then people probably wouldn't bat an eye at having to wear blues on mondays....it the timing of this dictum with more pressing issues to be dealt with.

If he thinks making people wear blues is going to make them a better airman, then he is smoking crack. Here's what will fix those airman, regardless of what uniform they are wearing. If they do a half-arse job on their task, NCO's and supervisors should hold them accountable and make them re-do it. If some one asks you do to something that is not within your job scope (and you know the way the process is supposed to work), then politely tell them that is not how the process works, inform him of how it should run, and force the process, force the people to do the jobs they are supposed to do. If we keep doing things just becuase "it is easier if I do it myself" then Amn douche-bag doesn't learn their job and will never be held accountable when it doesn't get done.

NCO and other supervisors: GROW A SACK!!! Stop being afraid to lay the smack down on Amn Snuffy when he is screwing up. Stop worrying that they are going to call the IG or the SARC or the JAG. Know the role as a supervisor. Praise when able, but let the hammer fall when needed. I'm even for wall-to-wall counseling if need be.

Cap-10

[lloydbraun]

This quote should piss off every single operator on this board. I've been flying for almost 5 years and I have never, ever seen this "culture of complacency". If there is a culture of complacency, it exists among the REMF, who I have to back up everytime they mess up a travel voucher, "forget" to submit paperwork so I can get my orders, or come up with some other bullshit ancillary training program I have to take. Which leads me to the real "culture" that the Air Force is exhibiting...

A caveat here, I was a FAIP and I just entered ACC. Nonetheless, I have never in my life seen more overworked professionals in my life. Even in AETC, I have almost 70 days of leave built up and I am one of the ones the with least amount. 12 hour days are the norm. Why is this? It's because we have to deal with all the other extraneous bullshit that takes away from our main duty, which is to "Fly, Fight, and Win". So, if anything, the people in the Air Force who put their pink fleshies out on the line everyday (the operators, not the 9-5 REMFs) suffer from anything but a "culture of complacency"...it's more of a "culture of being worn out flying worn out equipment".

So ###### you for saying that my buddies and I are enthralled in your "culture of complacency". All the problems will be fixed when we get our priorities straight...

Oh my gosh, I can't tell you how much I agree with this. It's so frustrating, everytime I try to make an appointment on their automated systems (so they don't have to get off their ass and answer the phone) I get bullshit like "all the appointments for a new ID card are taken up for the next two weeks". Or when I hear that finance is open from 9 to 3 MWF and 10 to 2 Tues/Thurs, WTF, Maybe they should be paid part time too. If flying made up even 10 percent of my job, I'd be thrilled.

[Guest Cap-10]

You make some good points, but you miss a big one. I don't think wearing blues on Mondays really matters for sh!t, either. But how the f@ck are you ever going to lay the smack down on Amn Snuffy after he sees you bitching about dumb sh!t that isn't worth bitching about? The answer is that you CAN'T. You may think you can, that your reasoning is more valid than his slackerdome, but every slacker rationalizes their slackerness, so they see it as the same damn thing and you undercut anything you're going to say to him.

Look, if I were CSAF, this probably would not have been high on my list (I suspect it wasn't very high on his, either... it just looks that way from down here). That's not the point. The point is everyone's stupid f@cking reaction. Get over it.

You are right, Amn Snuffy won't see be bitch about dumb stuff becuase I know better than to whine and moan in front of them. I get my bitching out here on this board, or at the O'club on Friday, or at a closed door session with the DO. When I'm at work in front of the E's, I tow the party line and enforce the rules. I let my actions speak for themselves. When and if our NAF CC tells us that we are wearing blues on Monday, I will wear them and I won't bitch while I'm at work. You can also bet your ass that I would hammer the E's if they' weren't in Blues too.

Cap-10