Space & Missiles Flight Suits (GONE!)

[letsgofast]

Apparently according to my COC, flight suits are now authorized for Space & Missiles cadets. Makes a lot of sense that the first thing the new AFOATS/CC (or Holm Center/CC) does is authorize bags for S&M guys; she's a space officer, go figure. Any thoughts?

Edited September 12, 2008 by letsgofast

[Duck]

I think thats wonderful!!! Flight suits for everyone!!!

While we are at it, I think that pilot wings should be given out as well to every career field after they finish their formal training. That way no one is left out and feels bad about themselves. We can't have that in the Air Force. We are all CYBER WARRIORS.

Lets hand out a few more medals and maybe some Distinguished Flying Crosses while we are at it, whether you fly or not, it isn't fair to only give them to aircrew!

[Helo Kitty]

I think thats wonderful!!! Flight suits for everyone!!!

While we are at it, I think that pilot wings should be given out as well to every career field after they finish their formal training. That way no one is left out and feels bad about themselves. We can't have that in the Air Force. We are all CYBER WARRIORS.

Lets hand out a few more medals and maybe some Distinguished Flying Crosses while we are at it, whether you fly or not, it isn't fair to only give them to aircrew!

I just don't understand why any cadet should be allowed to wear the bag, rated or non-rated... I was given a pilot slot back in March and just found out I'm heading to XL but I still don't feel I should have the right to wear the bag around campus and feel like a big shot just because the AF feels I should have a chance at becoming a pilot.

Army cadets don't wear ranger tabs just because they've been allocated a slot for Ranger school and I won't wear my bag just because I've been allocated a slot for pilot training. I'll wear one if and when I truly deserve to.

If Space and Missile cadets, or even rated cadets for that matter want to wear the bag around campus thats fine with me. They can do what they want but personally I would rather earn my shit and wait till IFS before I even think of stepping into one.

[Guest Toastrider]

I just don't understand why any cadet should be allowed to wear the bag, rated or non-rated... I was given a pilot slot back in March and just found out I'm heading to XL but I still don't feel I should have the right to wear the bag around campus and feel like a big shot just because the AF feels I should have a chance at becoming a pilot.

Agreed. I don't think I'll feel right wearing mine until UPT either. That being said, I'm probably still going to wear it because it was issued to me, it's low maintenance, and its comfortable. You won't see me walking around with aviators on trying to pick up girls, however...

As for the OP, I couldn't care less whether space and missiles cadets wear bags or not. After all, it IS the uniform they will wear on active duty. Don't we wear it for the same reasons? The debate really is whether or not S&M should be wearing bags in the first place and that's been discussed in different threads (being the lowly cadet that I am, I don't have an opinion either way).

[USAF Pirate]

I just don't understand why any cadet should be allowed to wear the bag, rated or non-rated... I was given a pilot slot back in March and just found out I'm heading to XL but I still don't feel I should have the right to wear the bag around campus and feel like a big shot just because the AF feels I should have a chance at becoming a pilot.

Army cadets don't wear ranger tabs just because they've been allocated a slot for Ranger school and I won't wear my bag just because I've been allocated a slot for pilot training. I'll wear one if and when I truly deserve to.

If Space and Missile cadets, or even rated cadets for that matter want to wear the bag around campus thats fine with me. They can do what they want but personally I would rather earn my shit and wait till IFS before I even think of stepping into one.

I agree 100% with Helo Kitty. What are cadets doing in ROTC that requires them to wear a flight suit? Since they don't have any duties that require it, they must be wearing it to feel special or separate themselves from their peers. Some people need that. Me personally, I'd wear it when I had to.

[Toro]

What are cadets doing in ROTC that requires them to wear a flight suit? Since they don't have any duties that require it, they must be wearing it to feel special or separate themselves from their peers.

What are the staff guys doing that requires them to wear a flight suit? Since they don't have any duties that require it, they must be wearing it to feel special or separate themselves from their peers. I think everybody should wear blues.

Cadets don't deserve the wings, but they got a pilot slot. Chill out about them wearing a bag.

Now...space and missile dudes wearing a flight suit? That's right the f*** out.

[Ramble]

they should wear space suits

[MilitaryToFinance]

I agree 100% with Helo Kitty. What are cadets doing in ROTC that requires them to wear a flight suit? Since they don't have any duties that require it, they must be wearing it to feel special or separate themselves from their peers. Some people need that. Me personally, I'd wear it when I had to.

Anybody ever think of the bigger picture than, hey they aren't as special as me they shouldn't get a flight suit!? The point of ROTC is to recruit and train new officers for the Air Force. You have a bunch of kids walking around campus in BDU's or now ABU's apparently, and everybody says, look at the Army kids. But you see a group of people walking around in flight suits and they say, look its Air Force pilots, pilots are cool. Sure they aren't pilots yet, sure from within the Air Force they may not have "earned" the bag yet but none of the other students on campus know that. It's quite simply the best uniform are far as recruiting college kids to join ROTC.

[USAF Pirate]

You have a bunch of kids walking around campus in BDU's or now ABU's apparently, and everybody says, look at the Army kids. But you see a group of people walking around in flight suits and they say, look its Air Force pilots, pilots are cool.

Good point, I've overlooked the recruiting benefit of the flight suit.

I'd hate to be the S&M candidate wearing a flight suit who has to constantly explain that they aren't a pilot to college students who don't know any better.

[Helo Kitty]

Anybody ever think of the bigger picture than, hey they aren't as special as me they shouldn't get a flight suit!? The point of ROTC is to recruit and train new officers for the Air Force. You have a bunch of kids walking around campus in BDU's or now ABU's apparently, and everybody says, look at the Army kids. But you see a group of people walking around in flight suits and they say, look its Air Force pilots, pilots are cool. Sure they aren't pilots yet, sure from within the Air Force they may not have "earned" the bag yet but none of the other students on campus know that. It's quite simply the best uniform are far as recruiting college kids to join ROTC.

Do you have any statistic or source supporting this claim? I doubt that the occasional AFROTC cadet wearing a bag on campus has any significant impact on the Air Force reaching its recruiting quota.

[letsgofast]

Pilot selects being allowed to wear the bag is all a part of the graduated privileges that all ROTC cadets earn as they progress through college. From BDU wear starting the FTP year, to being allowed to roll your sleeves up, to the metal FSD nameplate, to rank, it's all a part of the game that is ROTC. As sad as it may be, graduated privileges is all a part of the system that motivates cadets. Space cadets should be able to wear the bag since they wear it on AD but the bag is seen as one of the highest of privileges in ROTC and thus should be limited in distribution. More often than not (I'd venture to say 99% of the time), pilot selects worked their asses off much more than the S&M selects. In fact, many S&M selects are probably pilot slot rejects.

Also, are their nametags going to have "space wings" on them or are they going to be more like the ABM nametags and just say "Space and Missiles" on it?

Edited September 14, 2008 by letsgofast

[usaf36031]

I completely disagree. It may sound "kind of silly", but at the very least, every rated dude went through a hell of a lot more painful, long and harder (sts) training then any shoe out there; therefore, I think rated dudes have earned the right to wear a bag, even when they're not flying. I'm not saying they should wear a bag to meetings with the press, important civilians, etc. But when it comes to just doing routine paper clerking in those staff jobs, why shouldn't they get to wear a bag?

And on the ROTC stuff, who cares. It's one of those "perks" in the ROTC game that you get if you worked hard enough to earn a slot. It doesn't bother me if a cadet wears a bag...he's on the path to a rated job, so let him wear it once or twice a month.

I hear your argument man, I just can't justify to myself the idea that the bag is some sort of trophy earned through hard work. It's a uniform, a utility uniform at that. There are lots of members of the military who work hard. By your logic, we should let all Navy Seals wear pajamas to work every day. They've earned it.

EDIT: in the end it doesn't really matter. There are a lot more important things to worry about than who wears their bag and why. But hey, what are internet forums for if not for bitching about stuff you would never get caught dead griping about in person.

to each his own

[Guest Cap-10]

If nothing else, I see it for recruiting.

To every other clown on campus, when they see BDU's, you an "Army guy".

When people think AF, they think airplanes. Airplanes are flown by pilots. AF Pilots wear bags.

Was I glad to be able to wear the bag when I was a cadet and got my pilot slot? You bet.

I hope cadets with pilots slots understand that they are not king sh!it on turd island yet (and it will be many years until they are), but some of the posts on this board make me think otherwise.

Cap-10

[brabus]

I saw cadets who thought they were the shit as soon as they got a pilot slot/could wear a bag. I also saw plenty of cadets not act like that. Point is, there's always a few douches...don't let their crap affect a policy that also affects good dudes. If a couple cadets think they own the place b/c they wear a bag, fuck 'em...I'm sure there's more that wear a bag and don't have a shit attitude.

[Techsan]

Space & missiles wearing flightsuits are gay...and you want to know whats even more gay? Cadets who are going into space & missiles wearing flightsuits.

As for cadets w/pilot slots wearing flightsuits...absolutely. You have earned a pilot slot, so you should dress the part. Its just an f-ing uniform, its not like you're getting a set of wings or leather jacket.

@ my school, wearing a flightsuit in no way helped your chances of picking up chicks. In fact, it probably had the opposite effect (for other guys). Of course I never had a problem, flightsuit or not, in picking up the ladies. That just how I roll.

[Gas Man]

Not trying to be a dick to the guys and gals that "Earned" the right to wear a bag but..... The easiest part, by far, of becoming a pilot is being selected to attend UPT. Remember to keep that in mind when you're strutting around in a flight suit. Good on you for being selected, but that's the easy part. Best of luck. I'm sure some of the ones selected for UPT will be joining some of the "rejects" in S&M.

[Helo Kitty]

Not trying to be a dick to the guys and gals that "Earned" the right to wear a bag but..... The easiest part, by far, of becoming a pilot is being selected to attend UPT. Remember to keep that in mind when you're strutting around in a flight suit. Good on you for being selected, but that's the easy part. Best of luck. I'm sure some of the ones selected for UPT will be joining some of the "rejects" in S&M.

I'm with the Gas Man on this one. I was picked up for pilot and I'm entering my final year but there is no way I'm going to wear the flight suit around campus. Regardless of what the regs say I personally feel I haven't earned the right to wear it yet, especially to some BS lecture.

And the argument that cadets running around campus in a bag is some sort of recruiting tool is even more reason for me to not want to wear one.

Until I get to IFS I'll embrace the fact that I haven't earned shit and quietly wear my ABU's until the time comes to do some actual flying.

[Guest RocketMac]

The way I see it, if you are going to wear it on AD, then you should be able to wear it in ROTC. The big problem with it, is that Rated positions don't feel as special anymore now that someone else gets to wear "their" uniform.

But here is the real question then. When the pilots of real planes are but a very very select few, and the UAVs are roaming the skies, do those UAV selected personnel get to wear flight suits? Because in all reality, they are doing the same thing Space & Missiles people are doing. Sitting in a chair watching a screen pressing buttons.

Also, the spings I believe are going to be different. Just like the cadet pilot wings are. They'll be a cadet version of the wings. It would be kind of stupid for them to give out the real ones.

And on the topic of Space & Missile people being pilot rejects...well i happen to know a few who had probably the best competitive records, but just chose space & missiles because of families, education, and future careers. Flying planes is a dying breed of cat in today's world. They'll always be needed, just not as many there will be.

RM.

[Kelvin]

The AFA Jump Team wears a special blue "flight suit." (It has a slightly different configuration, I think.) And actually, EVERYONE at USAFA gets a flight suit, but except for special exceptions, you only wear them on days when you go flying/jumping. Just what I've heard/seen from Zoomies I know...

And just to add back to the S&M bag thread, I think its funny that the Space cadets in our class keep asking the future flyboys where to get flight suits and we either say a) we're pretty sure the NCO's are out, b) they cost like $300-400 or c) both. Feel free to do the same, hehe.

-Patty

[Toro]

this is sad that people actually care if S&M guys wear suits....Im going S&M and I wear my suit, not because I think its cool and I look like a pilot but bc it takes 3 seconds to put on and I dont have to iron it

Well hell, since everybody else's uniform is so difficult, we should just flight suits to everybody!

ralax car mechanics wear them too....

Really? Car mechanics wear flight suits? Hmmm...didn't see that the last time I went to Jiffy Lube.

Maybe when you've been in the Air Force for more than 10 minutes, you'll realize why things like this irk those of us who have been around for a while.

[165LM]

So I was enlisted aircrew in a local ANG unit when going through my last couple of years of school. I would occasionally have to wear the bag coming or going to fly. I tried not to because it makes you stand out like a sore thumb on a college campus. I hated having to explain that I was not a fighter pilot to the curious passer bys.

So one day I come across this ROTC cadet also wearing a bag in my dorm. He proceeded to explain to me how he was going to be a fighter pilot one day and he was some cc or something like that. He might even be my commander one day. Apparantly he had huge responsibilities and was very important. I'm pretty sure he was about to ask me to salute him. I have no clue how ROTC works and I don't f&^#ing care...I'm in the guard. I just told him good luck and was on my merry way.

Anyways, wear the bag if you think it makes you cool. Sure the reg say you can wear it. Sure it might motivate those below you. Just don't pretend that you are shit hot because you are a pilot select in ROTC (or any other commisioning source fwiw). You are not rated yet. You've got a long road to navigate before you will have that honor. And please don't act like your shit don't stink even after you're a pilot.

Edited February 14, 2009 by 165LM

[brabus]

It's a utility uniform, bite your lips and show some integrity

Find a dictionary dude; integrity has nothing to do with this conversation.

Furthermore, if you're a cadet that has a rated slot right now...chances are I'll see you at Vandy in two years

Actually, chances are you'll be sitting in a hole in the middle of a frozen Wyoming tundra while these "rated" cadets are flying something somewhere. UPT washout rate is pretty low. Lesson #1: Never pass the opportunity to STFU.

[Guest TSU2010]

Find a dictionary dude; integrity has nothing to do with this conversation.

Integrity: firm adherence to a code of especially MORAL or artistic values.

...and if that doesn't drive it home, here's the Air Force take on Integrity; to have integrity also is to respect oneself as a PROFESSIONAL and a human being. A person of integrity does not behave in ways that would bring DISCREDIT upon himself or the organization to which he belongs.

Last time I checked, flaunting the self centered opinion that you're God's gift to the Air Force just because you're given a chance at being one of the 20% of all Air Force members that fly isn't very becoming of an officer. And you can't tell me that making fun of the disabled and/or challenged is any better. All I'm saying is that there's a lot of shit being slung around this thread.

Actually, chances are you'll be sitting in a hole in the middle of a frozen Wyoming tundra while these "rated" cadets are flying something somewhere. UPT washout rate is pretty low.

Here's where I'd like to be a weather reporter...between the start of IFS and the end of UPT the combined washout rate is between 20% and 40%. That's three to four students washing out at IFS (10%) and, again, three to four students washing out at UPT (10%-20%). In addition, the Air Force doesn't like to waste money kicking people out. Most guys SIE of their own free will. Even if you are the absolute worst pilot trainee there, chances are you're gonna make it through...just kiss that sweet perch in a fighter goodbye if you're struggling. A good buddy of mine that graduated a few years ago is an F-15 instructor at Tyndall, one of his classmates was so bad that he got removed from the fighter/bomber track and "placed" in heavies because apparently the track workload is much easier in comparison. Not pokin' fun at the heavies either, just saying. (NKAWTG)

Lesson #1: Never pass the opportunity to STFU.

Lesson #2: Lead by example.

Edited April 25, 2009 by TSU2010

[brabus]

Integrity: firm adherence to a code of especially MORAL or artistic values.

No shit. Talking about flightsuits is in no way linked to anyone's moral values, hence integrity has nothing to do w/ this topic.

between the start of IFS and the end of UPT the combined washout rate is between 20% and 40%. That's three to four students washing out at IFS (10%) and, again, three to four students washing out at UPT (10%-20%).

First off, we were talking about UPT, not IFS. Secondly, I don't know where you get your "facts," but take it from a guy who has actually been through UPT...most classes don't wash out anyone. And if there actually is a washout, there's almost never 2. So your numbers are completely wrong.

Most guys SIE of their own free will.

Dude, really? Did you know that SIE stands for Self-Induced Elimination? No shit they SIE'd on their on free will. This brings me to another point...SIE and washout ARE NOT the same thing. You either leave yourself b/c you don't like flying or whatever (SIE) or you suck bad enough to just not be able to fly up to AF standards (washout).

Lesson #2: Lead by example.

Dude, you're not even an officer and you don't have any idea what you're talking about. Trying to call me out on leadership is just retarded. You need to learn a quick lesson about not opening your man pleaser unless you have a clue as to what you're talking about...and that my friend, will not happen for several years, maybe more since you seem to be incapable of learning a lesson.

[Vandal]

TSU2010, I hereby declare you to be "That Cadet" and if you don't think that you are, then you definitely are "that cadet".

For those you are claiming to see at Vandy-land in 2 years, it makes me wonder if you have been to FT yet? If not, make it through that weak-ass summer camp first then get your Space and Missiles job. Also, why will you see them at Space 100, are they all going to wash out or SIE and go to Vandenberg? Doubtful. IFS SIEs also train into other AFSCs like PA, Force Support, SF, take your pick, I know of one person who has trained into each of those from IFS.

More on topic:

I was set up to be an S&M guy before I got sent to BMT, an awesome experience btw, and I was against bags. They maybe a "utility uniform" for aircrew, but the ABU is the utility uniform for the rest of the USAF. Bags are a aircrew thing designed for a very specific purpose. They have no use in the space and missiles world other than to make people feel better about themselves for being in the S&M world.

Rule 1. Never Miss a chance to STFU. Great advice for cadets.

Rule 2. Lead by example, good luck getting anyone but shoes to follow you.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Vandal