Space & Missiles Flight Suits (GONE!)

[albertschu]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say all the space dudes who have to go buy a bunch of new sets of ABUs.

That is what I would have thought also. Not:

all your airmen

[afnav]

My command would not pay for a new flight suit for me after I had to recycle my old ones. I guess it was my fault that I was stuck at a staff job for a total of six years.

Fortunately, one of my coworkers' old S-3 unit was deactivating, and had a bunch of flight suits left over that may or may not have been recycled to other units. He was able to get me one. I wore a "USN" flight suit for my last three years in, and thanked them profusely.

[Bergman]

The highlight of the change, IMHO:

Along with the issued flight suits, airmen who are adept at their satellite skills also earn the right to wear the famed A-2 leather jacket — an accoutrement that makes them look like World War II aces and will also disappear from daily wear.

So glad to see common sense making at least a small return.

[sky_king]

My god, you guys sound like a bunch of whiny bitches. Who cares if some dude sitting in a hole is wearing a set of footie pajamas, does it make you that much less of a man?

[Toro]

That is what I would have thought also. Not:

Seriously? Reading comprehension much? We're both saying the same thing. "All the space dudes" = your Airmen (sorry, missed the capital A first time)

My point is that you may be saving Big Blue money, but you're not making that expense disappear, you're simply transferring it to your people. That's an outcome of this decision, but it shouldn't be a bragging point.

[Festivius]

I think the cost savings must come from the idea that as part of our initial stipend for uniforms, ABUs (as the force-wide utility uniform) are already covered. So, there is no actual additional cost to anyone. This would be the same rationale for why the AF stopped buying ABUs for people who are deploying once the phase-in period for ABUs was completed. We’ve already been paid for them, so why “double-dip?” This seems to pass the logic test to me, but I’m pretty hazy on the whole “initial stipend for uniforms.”

[matmacwc]

Officers don't get uniform allowances. Pilots do get free flight suits though.

[Fuzz]

I think the cost savings must come from the idea that as part of our initial stipend for uniforms, ABUs (as the force-wide utility uniform) are already covered. So, there is no actual additional cost to anyone. This would be the same rationale for why the AF stopped buying ABUs for people who are deploying once the phase-in period for ABUs was completed. We’ve already been paid for them, so why “double-dip?” This seems to pass the logic test to me, but I’m pretty hazy on the whole “initial stipend for uniforms.”

Yeah that $400 sure covered the cost of all my uniforms

[Festivius]

For officers, I never perceived the one-time pay out ($400 sounds right) as claiming to cover ALL uniforms…I thought it was just some free money that helped me do something I was going to have to do anyway, which was get a closet full of AF stuff.

[brickhistory]

Last line from the article:

Airmen engaged in flight operations at units including U.S. Northern Command, the Air Force Academy and the 302nd Airlift Wing still will sport the combat-ready pantsuits.

Now that's funny right there.

Fabulous.

[Wolf424]

Yeah that $400 sure covered the cost of all my uniforms

$400 bought a lot of Beast Light when I was a 2LT...

For some perspective, $700,000 is approximately 0.0001069 percent of the budget. (and no, I didn't make that number up)

Sounds to me like this is more common sense related than budget related.

[RTB]

Long overdue. Never made any damn sense.

[albertschu]

Seriously? Reading comprehension much? We're both saying the same thing. "All the space dudes" = your Airmen (sorry, missed the capital A first time)

My point is that you may be saving Big Blue money, but you're not making that expense disappear, you're simply transferring it to your people. That's an outcome of this decision, but it shouldn't be a bragging point.

Sorry I'm not being clear. It's the "all" I'm having trouble with. Not all airmen/Airmen in AFSPACE got free uniforms. So the expense is being transferred to SOME airmen, the others were already paying for their own uniforms already.

Flight suits for aircrew are PPE, therefore a necessary expense.

Flight suits for cube-dwellers is an unnecessary expense.

Cutting unnecessary expenses IS a bragging point.

Sounds to me like this is more common sense related than budget related.

Why can't it be both?

[LockheedFix]

$400 bought a lot of Beast Light when I was a 2LT...

For some perspective, $700,000 is approximately 0.0001069 percent of the budget. (and no, I didn't make that number up)

Sounds to me like this is more common sense related than budget related.

Which budget. USAF? DoD? I'm willing to bet that it's a bigger chunk of AFGSC's budget than what you quoted.

[Fuzz]

$400 bought a lot of Beast Light when I was a 2LT...

For some perspective, $700,000 is approximately 0.0001069 percent of the budget. (and no, I didn't make that number up)

Sounds to me like this is more common sense related than budget related.

Yeah I mean it will get you a pair of ABUs, boots, and shirts and socks. I think I spent about $500 to get two sets of ABUs, service dress, undergarments, and rank/insignia (I already had a pair of boots), and then had to buy the Mess Dress as well. However, talking with a marine buddy, he spent over two thousand for all his uniforms, so it definitely could be worse.

[Dupe]

Which budget. USAF? DoD? I'm willing to bet that it's a bigger chunk of AFGSC's budget than what you quoted.

Squadron O&M budgets sometimes can be rIndiculously tight. Getting the burden of buying 2x $350 combat-proven pant-suits per person per year off the books for a space ops squadron might be a great deal for them. If that savings gets a pack of the smart space operators to what ever the space equivalent of WEPTAC is, then this whole thing is well worth it. Or it could just turn into more flat screen TVs at the end of the year.

Edit: spelling

Edited April 15, 2012 by Dupe

[sky_king]

Flight suits for aircrew are PPE, therefore a necessary expense.

Flight suits for cube-dwellers is an unnecessary expense.

Cutting unnecessary expenses IS a bragging point.

So, why don't you where blues or ABUs and change into a flight suit only when you fly? It seems like the wear and tear you put on your flight suit during mission planning is a waste.

[magnetfreezer]

So, why don't you where blues or ABUs and change into a flight suit only when you fly? It seems like the wear and tear you put on your flight suit during mission planning is a waste.

My plane has far more grease, hydro, and sharp edges than my desk. I think the mission planning wear is insignificant.

[Epiloo]

I'm a former missiller and I never wear my flight suit in my new job now that I don't have to go in the hole anymore. I prefer ABUs because civilians don't confuse me with pilots and I never had any desire to be a pilot anway. I would have preferred we wore the old blue suits, but that also would have been a waste of money. Most missileers immediately changed into pajamas once they were underground anyway, so there is no need for a fire retardant material. I respect what pilots do, but missiles is a shit job that nobody gives a ###### about, and they do it every day thanklessly. I'm glad to see they flight suits gone from AFSPC, but I don't think AFGSC is on board yet. Anyway, flight suits are a waste of money for non-fliers, but trust me when I say space and missile Airmen didn't want that job just so they could wear a flight suit. We're all in this ######ed up Air Force together so a little brotherly love could go a long way---and besides the Air Force probably spends $700,000+ a year on trash bags so the "saving money" aspect is something of a joke.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Epiloo

[nsplayr]

My plane has far more grease, hydro, and sharp edges than my desk. I think the mission planning wear is insignificant.

That's the point he was trying to make genius...careful down the slippery slope of, "flights suits only for those who need them!" because it can lead some good idea fairy to the arguent of, "flight suits only when you need them," i.e. only on the flightline.

Edited April 15, 2012 by nsplayr

[skibum]

In my squadron I expect every single person on flight status who shows up to be prepared to fly. We wear flight suits every day, inlcuding Mondays. I may require you on a moment's notice to go out to the flightline because it's your J.O.B. You better be dressed appropriately, and no I will not wait for you to go to the locker room and change.

[nsplayr]

In my squadron I expect every single person on flight status who shows up to be prepared to fly. We wear flight suits every day, inlcuding Mondays. I may require you on a moment's notice to go out to the flightline because it's your J.O.B. You better be dressed appropriately, and no I will not wait for you to go to the locker room and change.

I wish everyone in the AF felt this way...kudos to your leadership for having the balls and the leverage to do this.

[Gravedigger]

Ok, so this topic was already discussed in a previous thread, but a couple of points:

1. As has been stated Missileers are in AFGSC, space operators (who this applies to) are in AFSPC.

2. The wear of green nomex flightsuits was originally brought to AFSPC by a pilot as a cost-savings/culture enhancing measure. Space and missile operators previously wore blue flightsuits. One day a general (pilot) said all operations should wear a common flightsuit.

3. This decision actually has zero to do with money. It has everything to do with having standardization in the command between space and cyber ops. It either came down to letting cyber dudes wear the bag, or taking them away from space.

4. The majority of folks in AFSPC don't give a shit about not getting to wear flightsuits. We partially had a distinct culture back in the day with blue flightsuits, and much more strict education/experience requirements for members performing space operations duties. In standard Air Force fashion, Big Blue tried to normalize space ops and bring it closer to the flying Air Force, and subsequently started pumping the command full of the bottom-third types from each of the commissioning sources, and converting a significant number of officer billets to A1C billets. Fortunately, we have not had any significant challenges to the space domain...but I foresee a shit show on the horizon. Except I am not confident we can survive a space "Pearl Harbor."

5. Space deserves a little Goddamn respect from the flying Air Force. I don't blame most of you for having absolutely no idea what we do on a daily basis, because you should be focused on flying. That said, it wouldn't kill you to learn a little about something the world would literally stop functioning without. You don't get SATCOM and navigation from a dude working 7 hours a day in a cubicle. There's a reason we work in OG's and not MSG's. We come in for training/evals/additional duties on our days off. We are working at 3am on Christmas. But we do it without appreciation and without any pay incentives or special privileges. We don't get to see anything cool other than windowless buildings and computer screens while we work. Just something to consider when you bash space nerds.

[Champ Kind]

Why the angst? Weren't you a UPT stud that SIEd and volunteered for Space/Missiles?

It's still the "Air" Force. I'm sure you'll have a separate service one day. But for now, it is what it is.

[Danny Noonin]

5. Space deserves a little Goddamn respect from the flying Air Force. I don't blame most of you for having absolutely no idea what we do on a daily basis, because you should be focused on flying. That said, it wouldn't kill you to learn a little about something the world would literally stop functioning without. You don't get SATCOM and navigation from a dude working 7 hours a day in a cubicle. There's a reason we work in OG's and not MSG's. We come in for training/evals/additional duties on our days off. We are working at 3am on Christmas. But we do it without appreciation and without any pay incentives or special privileges. We don't get to see anything cool other than windowless buildings and computer screens while we work. Just something to consider when you bash space nerds.

Well you aren't going to earn any respect by whining like a little bitch.

By the way, some of us do know plenty about space. What's your point here? Do you know much about SEAD? Or CAS? Or OCA? Fact: I know a fuck of a lot more about your job than you know about mine. Why is it that space and cyber dudes always cry that no one understands the nitty gritty of what they do when 1) if you ask, they "can't tell you" anyway and 2) they don't truly know jack and/or shit about the nitty gritty of what anyone else does either.