JS Posted October 9, 2009 Posted October 9, 2009 I'm going to continue to NOT do that...although I look forward, with great joy and eagerness, to the day an LT tries to REMF me for not saluting! Already happened multiple times. A few days after the rumor was put out about the coming changes, the desert douchebags, I mean, desert diamonds left the meeting and started telling people the new rule was already in effect. One of our majors ran into the "why didn't you salute the LT" stupidity before the fucking thing was even a rule. I heard a similar story about a captain from another unit. It is a sad day when the headlines are about the major battle in Nuristan, where hundreds died, and all the choads at the Deid can do is print out another version of the uniform reg, clarifying PT wear and saluting.
JS Posted October 9, 2009 Posted October 9, 2009 So it begins. Not 30 minutes after typing the above post, I make my way through the dark alleys here heading toward the post office. I am in my PT gear, which as of this writing still has no rank on it (may change 30 minutes from now after the next incident). I see an ABU girl coming my way. Less than 2 feet away, she salutes me. By the time my pea brain processes it, she is already past me and I notice her LtCol leafs as she is abeam me. Now I may look a little older than my 30 years, but there is no way in hell that I look like a full bird colonel in PT gear. Not to mention that I would not be roaming around in the shanty-town known as CC, when all the brass here live in the Better Peoples Complex or the special trailers. The only thing I can think of is that she was thinking that I would salute her (which I would have, had it not been pitch black), and her brain was preemptively saluting me back. This is going to get real fucking interesting real fucking fast.
Rifleman96 Posted October 9, 2009 Posted October 9, 2009 I'll probably get flamed for this. But the concept for saluting in the PTU is not that difficult. The Army has been doing it for a long time w/o much of a problem. Yes we will have to deal with the growing pains of it, i.e. REMF Lt's. I don't know about you, but I have fun telling those individuals to pound sand and to get their head out of the butt.
afnav Posted October 9, 2009 Posted October 9, 2009 So it begins. Not 30 minutes after typing the above post, I make my way through the dark alleys here heading toward the post office. I am in my PT gear, which as of this writing still has no rank on it (may change 30 minutes from now after the next incident). I see an ABU girl coming my way. Less than 2 feet away, she salutes me. By the time my pea brain processes it, she is already past me and I notice her LtCol leafs as she is abeam me. Now I may look a little older than my 30 years, but there is no way in hell that I look like a full bird colonel in PT gear. Not to mention that I would not be roaming around in the shanty-town known as CC, when all the brass here live in the Better Peoples Complex or the special trailers. The only thing I can think of is that she was thinking that I would salute her (which I would have, had it not been pitch black), and her brain was preemptively saluting me back. This is going to get real ######ing interesting real ######ing fast. Actually, in the leper colony (C7), I'd say that 60-70% of the place is made up of warrants and SNCOs. They have such a sense of entitlement that they took over one of the dayrooms and put a cipher lock on it to keep out the O riffraff. I know what you mean about the dark areas in CC. The Friday night I showed up and couldn't sleep, I took a walk around in my ABUs. There were batches of NCOs in packs waiting to hammer people for something. I was walking between buildings in the dark and they would converge on me, thinking I was doing something wrong. They would scatter like roaches when they saw my oakleaves. ######ing cowards. I'm at a complete loss to fathom what they are trying to get out of this crap. Just because the army is stupid enough to require saluting in gym shorts does not mean we must follow suit. If they want to fix something at deployed locations, figure out why people keep killing themselves on deployments or when they get back from deployments.
Guest Fogo Posted October 9, 2009 Posted October 9, 2009 (edited) Didn't take long to get all this going... I just was able to read the "good news" in my inbox. I love how it was worded "long awaited change" has hit the streets. Has the AF began to work on their plan for a massive shortage in operational folks coming over the next few years? Btw... I'm sure most of you have already seen it, but it becomes more applicable all the time... Edited October 9, 2009 by Fogo
JS Posted October 9, 2009 Posted October 9, 2009 I'll probably get flamed for this. But the concept for saluting in the PTU is not that difficult. The Army has been doing it for a long time w/o much of a problem. Yes we will have to deal with the growing pains of it, i.e. REMF Lt's. I don't know about you, but I have fun telling those individuals to pound sand and to get their head out of the butt. Most of us don't have a problem with saluting in PT gear. I have a problem with paying $100,000+++ of my taxdollars a year to have a worthless bag of douche getting paid to be out here and try and enforce saluting standards when guys walking down dark alleys in PT gear don't see the somewhat subdued rank on some officers uniform. And all this shit seems to be very important after getting back from a mission where you got shot at, or while you are heading to the flight line to salute the guys that actually fucking died fighting this freaking war. The point is that these short-sighted shitbags have lost their courage and forget the reason we are here. But I don't actually fault the first shits, desert douchebags, or other shoe-clerk rule enforcers. I personally hold accountable the spineless leaders who condone the mass stupidity and loss of mission focus that ultimately gets people hurt. They will have to answer, and it may not be to anyone in this life, at some point. ######ing cowards. Ha ha. Another short story. I see this future diamond dickweed in the laundry line and he is talking about how he is new to the base. He then tells me to take my sunglasses off my head (I am in PT gear). I do it, and it is not a big deal. I grumble about it to a fellow coworker at dinner, and that was the end of it. The very next day, I am passing through the grab and go line in my uniform, with patches removed, a holster strapped to my leg, and my sunglasses clearly dangling from my flight suit middle zipper. In walks the same cum stain from yesterday. He clearly recognizes me, sees he is on "my turf" (sort of) and that I am walking out the door on a mission. Do you think he had the sack to say something about the shades that day? Of course not - too much of a fucking coward. I just find it funny how around the bra these roaches find the time to hound everyone, but near the running jet engines, they all the sudden lose their nerve. Interesting how that works.
pawnman Posted October 10, 2009 Posted October 10, 2009 I'll probably get flamed for this. But the concept for saluting in the PTU is not that difficult. The Army has been doing it for a long time w/o much of a problem. Yes we will have to deal with the growing pains of it, i.e. REMF Lt's. I don't know about you, but I have fun telling those individuals to pound sand and to get their head out of the butt. I agree somewhat. Sure, there's no problem with a guy saluting me while he's wearing PT gear and I'm wearing a bag. But lighting people up for NOT saluting in PT gear? It just seems like a very bad idea to go high-aspect on someone when you don't have the SA to know if that's a MSgt or a LtCol. Like many of the rules out here, it's not so much the rule itself, it's the way they get enforced. BTW, if Im ever in charge (and I may be recycling someone else's good idea here), I will replace the reflective belt policy with a "look-both-ways-before-you-cross-the-street" policy. If anyone gets hit by a car, I will court-martial the driver AND the victim.
Guest C-17 Flyer Posted October 10, 2009 Posted October 10, 2009 saluting in PT gear is finally here: 4.1.7.3. Personnel wearing the PTU will salute officers in uniform or officers they recognize. When actively participating in a physical training activity that does not allow free movement of the right arm, saluting is not required. I'm planning on walking around with two 5 pound weights while in PT gear.
BQZip01 Posted October 10, 2009 Posted October 10, 2009 ...it's not so much the rule itself, it's the way they get enforced. Dude, that comment is worthy of its own patch... ...then again there are the asinine rules too, like V-necks with blues instead of crewneck shirts (never mind the fact we use them with every other uniform...) [/stopping rant now before I go off track...I need a drink...]
Scooter14 Posted October 10, 2009 Posted October 10, 2009 I'm going to continue to NOT do that...although I look forward, with great joy and eagerness, to the day an LT tries to REMF me for not saluting! Pawn, It's been done before see page 2 of this thread and then it goes away, then an AEF cycle hapens and it all comes back. Good luck. It's gonna happen. Just be more ready than I was to light that REMF up. It helps if you're not hungover.
HU&W Posted October 10, 2009 Posted October 10, 2009 I agree somewhat. Sure, there's no problem with a guy saluting me while he's wearing PT gear and I'm wearing a bag. But lighting people up for NOT saluting in PT gear? It just seems like a very bad idea to go high-aspect on someone when you don't have the SA to know if that's a MSgt or a LtCol. Like many of the rules out here, it's not so much the rule itself, it's the way they get enforced. BTW, if Im ever in charge (and I may be recycling someone else's good idea here), I will replace the reflective belt policy with a "look-both-ways-before-you-cross-the-street" policy. If anyone gets hit by a car, I will court-martial the driver AND the victim. Bingo. I think there are far to many losers with rank but no self esteem or empathy who think chewing out a junior member (STS) equates to leadership. A salute is a sign of respect and camaraderie, like a formal greeting, initiated by the junior ranking individual. It is, however, incumbent on both parties to make it a good and professional experience. I guess that this new 'deid rule will determine one thing though. If you are a good enough leader to be recognized, especially by the younger Airmen, you can gauge that by the number of salutes you receive in PT's. If nobody recognizes you, that probably says something. Bad things I see that could happen include: 1. Flash cards of every officer's face issued to every newcomer for memorization and recognition. 2. If your commander comes (STS) to watch a PT test it could become more like a pass and review with everyone saluting each lap they make. After all, hands aren't encumbered while running. 3. The whole give a mouse a cookie syndrome. Since this is not an "add/take away" issue, but more a "do the opposite" issue on big AF policy, I could see it expanding. Next, those in the 'deid will be saluting while indoors, chow hall, shower, etc...
pawnman Posted October 10, 2009 Posted October 10, 2009 Pawn, It's been done before see page 2 of this thread and then it goes away, then an AEF cycle hapens and it all comes back. Good luck. It's gonna happen. Just be more ready than I was to light that REMF up. It helps if you're not hungover. I'm aware that it has happened to others. I just look forward to my turn.
Guest EN_GRAD Posted October 10, 2009 Posted October 10, 2009 I see this future diamond dickweed in the laundry line and he is talking about how he is new to the base. He then tells me to take my sunglasses off my head (I am in PT gear). I do it, and it is not a big deal. Since when do NCOs give orders to Officers? This only happens because we (mostly CGOs) allow it to slide! This goes back to the way the rules are being enforced. I don't have give a shit if an NCO politely reminds me of rule X in 36-2903, Chow my Hog...in that case I will gladly take my sunglasses off my cranium without protest. But as a prior NCO myself, this E and I are going to have a little chat about customs and courtesies if that was me.
pawnman Posted October 10, 2009 Posted October 10, 2009 Since when do NCOs give orders to Officers? This only happens because we (mostly CGOs) allow it to slide! This goes back to the way the rules are being enforced. I don't have give a shit if an NCO politely reminds me of rule X in 36-2903, Chow my Hog...in that case I will gladly take my sunglasses off my cranium without protest. But as a prior NCO myself, this E and I are going to have a little chat about customs and courtesies if that was me. NCOs started giving orders to officers when the CGOs lost their squadron leadership's backing to clamp down on this behavior, while the NCOs simultaneously gained the support of wing leadership to "enforce the standards".
JS Posted October 10, 2009 Posted October 10, 2009 Since when do NCOs give orders to Officers? This only happens because we (mostly CGOs) allow it to slide! This goes back to the way the rules are being enforced. I don't have give a shit if an NCO politely reminds me of rule X in 36-2903, Chow my Hog...in that case I will gladly take my sunglasses off my cranium without protest. But as a prior NCO myself, this E and I are going to have a little chat about customs and courtesies if that was me. His words were "take your sunglasses off your head, please." We had just had an incident the day prior where an NCO was quite disrespectful to two O's in bags (I think). He was quite nasty saying something like "See him, he is RIGHT. You are WRONG." Of course, this was all about sunglasses hanging from the flight suit zipper or their shirt. I guess my gameplan is that if they say "please" or "sir" as a precaution, you have no recourse but to comply with the correction and move on. If they themselves, however, viloate the basic rule of custom and courtesies, that is a different story. Hence why I was listening for the sir or please part. If an NCO tells me to do something without a sir or please, my response will be an "Excuse me!?!?" and then wait for a response. Again, I know this comes and go, but this could get kind of ugly if the logic train of stupidity is allowed to run off the tracks like this. The bad thing is that the desert dicks have the support of the spineless upper-management here. If you are going to call out an NCO, you better have good evidence that they too were in the wrong too by disrespecting an O, otherwise the wing-weenie will back them every time. The revised uniform reg also now says that you any O's or E-5's and above can ask for anyone else's ID for reasons of force protection or "good order and disclipline." It is going to be funny when an NCO asks me for my ID and I reply with asking him for his for disrespecting an O. Again, that is where things are going to get very interesting.
Herk Driver Posted October 10, 2009 Posted October 10, 2009 The revised uniform reg also now says that you any O's or E-5's and above can ask for anyone else's ID for reasons of force protection or "good order and disclipline." It is going to be funny when an NCO asks me for my ID and I reply with asking him for his for disrespecting an O. Again, that is where things are going to get very interesting. Asking for someone's ID is a pretty standard issue. Everyone should go and read the authority of an Officer and an NCO in the UCMJ. Why they put that in the uniform reg, I have no idea.
Guest guard/reserve hopeful Posted October 10, 2009 Posted October 10, 2009 We had one of our CGO's attend one of those luncheons with the Wing CC the other day and during the Q&A session the question was asked why saluting was required in PT gear. Apparently his response was to be more in line with the Army policy. Sheesh way to pass the buck. Same CC said at our "Wrong Start" briefing (back when saluting in PT gear was not a rule yet) said that we should expect it to be a rule soon and that the intent was not to have people become Nazis about it and NOT to stop every person they suspected was a lower rank. Yeah that worked well, not an hour later two of our O-4’s (in PT gear) were stopped by O-2’s and asked why they did not render a salute when passing (remember it was not even a rule yet) and the O-4’s presented their Id cards and gave them an earful. Great plan boss.
MKopack Posted October 10, 2009 Posted October 10, 2009 Sixty-six pages in, and each of these posts is still hard to believe. Here's what the 'Deid needs: "WWRD" What would Robin do? I'll bet you it wouldn't be reflective belts... Artwork, signed "Mason '67", from the Robin Olds Estate auction, and now proudly up on my wall.
pawnman Posted October 11, 2009 Posted October 11, 2009 Sixty-six pages in, and each of these posts is still hard to believe. Here's what the 'Deid needs: "WWRD" What would Robin do? I'll bet you it wouldn't be reflective belts... Artwork, signed "Mason '67", from the Robin Olds Estate auction, and now proudly up on my wall. I'm going to write WWRD on my reflective belt.
afnav Posted October 11, 2009 Posted October 11, 2009 Robin Olds if fighting the war today. I would like permission to frame that.
afnav Posted October 11, 2009 Posted October 11, 2009 NCOs started giving orders to officers when the CGOs lost their squadron leadership's backing to clamp down on this behavior, while the NCOs simultaneously gained the support of wing leadership to "enforce the standards". I can tell you that it has happened since 1990 when I was an NCO. Back then, you did what the officer told you to do, and only questioned the altitude you were required to reach when you jumped. All that is gone now. I'd say some of it started when the COS-who-cannot-be-named was put in charge. When the top officer is a buffoon, the enlisted ranks will automatically assume that all officers are idiots. It has become progressively worse (see comments above) over the years to the point the SNCOs have taken over the service. Are they the backbone? Absolutely. Are they in charge? At their level, yes. The last CMSAF thought he was the COS, too. He was not popular with the rank-and-file NCOs, either, but the AF promoted his clones over the guys that didn't get the 'big head'. If the officers are too weak to make the big, tough decisions, the SNCOs will take it from them. The perceived separation between the two is already slipping, as a lot of them have advanced degrees now. If the officer screws up or doesn't make a decision, it paves the way for the end of the officer corps as we knew it. A case in point at the Deid came up a few months ago. 365s and PCS guys are required to vacate their rooms when their replacements arrived, instead of putting the new guys in tents or rooming with someone in CC. It didn't matter if the old guy had to sit in a tent for a month waiting for a ride home. The policy was a Word document that had never been signed (or probably seen) by an officer. It was just 'done'. If NCOs are creating policy that has been carried out, but has never been seen by an officer, than the leadership has surrendered its authority to the lower ranks. I have a feeling that this is how a lot of the shitbaggery at places like the Deid got started.
Herk Driver Posted October 11, 2009 Posted October 11, 2009 A case in point at the Deid came up a few months ago. 365s and PCS guys are required to vacate their rooms when their replacements arrived, instead of putting the new guys in tents or rooming with someone in CC. It didn't matter if the old guy had to sit in a tent for a month waiting for a ride home. The policy was a Word document that had never been signed (or probably seen) by an officer. It was just 'done'. If NCOs are creating policy that has been carried out, but has never been seen by an officer, than the leadership has surrendered its authority to the lower ranks. I have a feeling that this is how a lot of the shitbaggery at places like the Deid got started. A great point that you should ask to see it in writing. Word of mouth policy is NOT policy.
loadsmith Posted October 11, 2009 Posted October 11, 2009 From the AUABI 34-246 1 March 2009 Out-Processing. 2.4.1. “1+1” and Non Pre-Designated “1+0” Rooms. Outgoing personnel will inform BPC/LMO of their departure date no later than seven calendar days prior to departure. Outgoing personnel will conduct a room inspection with their squadron billeting POC; place clean linens in the room; and return room key to BPC/LMO on the day of departure. If member is delayed departing for any reason, member will be assigned a transient bed in CC through the Transient/LMO.
afnav Posted October 11, 2009 Posted October 11, 2009 From the AUABI 34-246 1 March 2009 Out-Processing. 2.4.1. “1+1” and Non Pre-Designated “1+0” Rooms. Outgoing personnel will inform BPC/LMO of their departure date no later than seven calendar days prior to departure. Outgoing personnel will conduct a room inspection with their squadron billeting POC; place clean linens in the room; and return room key to BPC/LMO on the day of departure. If member is delayed departing for any reason, member will be assigned a transient bed in CC through the Transient/LMO. That reg has been superseded. It is not the latest guidance. We had two 365 Lt Cols assigned to tents for two weeks in July.
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