Leadership at the 'Deid

[Pitt4401]

For those of us at the Deid...

For shits and grins

Who wants to go to the CC chow hall in the near future like a group of five us and construct one giant reflective belt and go through the line?

[Guest Fogo]

For those of us at the Deid...

For shits and grins

Who wants to go to the CC chow hall in the near future like a group of five us and construct one giant reflective belt and go through the line?

I'm in! I'm about to go into the tents and wait for a ride home. I'd love to spend the last week as part of the resistence.

Just to add more fuel to the fire: I was in there a little after midnight today for my omelete chopped up to become scrambled eggs, and there was a food service two striper standing behind the food line asking anyone she saw not wearing one to see their reflective belt. As I came through the line, I noticed she herself wasn't wearing one. After she asked a 5th person (yelling across the line) in a minute, I quietly asked: "Where's yours?" She looked down and said, "Well sir, I'm working indoors...." "Indoors huh?" I said and walked away to enjoy my eggs.

Those folks are just doing what they are told, but thats the problem: They are being led to believe this is how you effectively run things in the military.

And for the person who said they sense a little bit of revolt building, its definately something. That whiteboard telling us we need a reflective belt keeps getting closer and closer to the door and I see more and more people "patrolling." I'm definately going to take the idea of asking them to send me the line about wearing a belt indoors.

[slacker]

Do this but with reflective belts

[MKopack]

Perhaps follow the lead of Moody AFB's website and wear your belt like this?

(https://www.moody.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/web/090421-F-8364J-004.jpg)

The worst part of this lack of leadership - officer, enlisted, command, everybody - is that all the junior people who are participating in this trainwreck, are those who are going to be making the rules in the future. Without real leadership, it only gets worse.

The Air Force has always been known, in general, as the one service who had always put its people first, treating people well - or at least like adults. That's a big reason that I, and I'd assume a lot of other people ended up there. It seems that with the growing number of joint bases, were racing to lower ourselves to, hell, I say it, to the Army's level, rather than setting an example of how military life can be.

Here's a reflective belt that wearer that we can ALL support...

[JS]

I'm in! I'm about to go into the tents and wait for a ride home. I'd love to spend the last week as part of the resistence.

Just to add more fuel to the fire: I was in there a little after midnight today for my omelete chopped up to become scrambled eggs, and there was a food service two striper standing behind the food line asking anyone she saw not wearing one to see their reflective belt. As I came through the line, I noticed she herself wasn't wearing one. After she asked a 5th person (yelling across the line) in a minute, I quietly asked: "Where's yours?" She looked down and said, "Well sir, I'm working indoors...." "Indoors huh?" I said and walked away to enjoy my eggs.

Those folks are just doing what they are told, but thats the problem: They are being led to believe this is how you effectively run things in the military.

And for the person who said they sense a little bit of revolt building, its definately something. That whiteboard telling us we need a reflective belt keeps getting closer and closer to the door and I see more and more people "patrolling." I'm definately going to take the idea of asking them to send me the line about wearing a belt indoors.

Yeah, I got to thinking while at the gym after I put my reflective belt in the locker - if it is required indoors at the chow hall, isn't it required indoors at the gym and in any office that folks are working in? I think the rule is simply being misinterpreted as being required indoors. Tonight I am going to bring mine to the chow hall, but drop it off with my backpack at a table before getting food. If they can point to the page in the regs where it says I actually have to wear it indoors, I will concede.

And yes, I think that the one stripers enforcing the rules are just as bad as the management who is making the rules up. I always thought that we all had a duty to refuse to enforce unlawful orders? Kind of like the CBT that says you can't shoot prisoners simply because your commanding officer tells you to. Well, if the regulation does not call for indoor reflective belt wearing, and I blindly follow a superiors order to enforce said policy, isn't that the same?

[JS]

....That whiteboard telling us we need a reflective belt keeps getting closer and closer to the door and I see more and more people "patrolling." I'm definately going to take the idea of asking them to send me the line about wearing a belt indoors.

There is a normal size paper (8.5 x 11) in the plastic holder on the outside of the door saying the same thing. About the indoor sign - I am over 6' tall, and this dry erase sign is pretty freaking big, with each letter about the size of my fist. And I too thought it funny how it is now in the middle of the floor area, right by the door so you basically have to either run into it or turn sideways to sliver by it in order to sign in. I will try and take pictures tonight and post them. I think the post a few above had it right - these pics will look real good in the NY Times, Stars & Stripes, Foreign Policy, and AF Times.

The good news is that the paper in the plastic holder is easily hot-swappable and the dry erase board is written in, well, easily erasable/alterable marker. Details to follow.

[Herk Driver]

Bottom line, making him aware is not the issue. Changing his mind is (although I have a sneaking suspicion that one of the multi-stars at AUAB might have prodded him a little to support the stupidity rules).

You may be 100% correct, but there are other places that don't have the same level of queep. So, I doubt that it is COMUSAFCENT, maybe someone else.

[JS]

You may be 100% correct, but there are other places that don't have the same level of queep. So, I doubt that it is COMUSAFCENT, maybe someone else.

Correct. There are lots of stars at the Died who wear green uniforms. Some of those folks have many more starts than the base commander; they are pushing the saluting in PT gear and reflective belts for everyone. Now the services commander going off the deep end in the CC chow hall - that is all him.

[pawnman]

Correct. There are lots of stars at the Died who wear green uniforms. Some of those folks have many more starts than the base commander; they are pushing the saluting in PT gear and reflective belts for everyone. Now the services commander going off the deep end in the CC chow hall - that is all him.

And oddly enough, the Army guys are having the most success bucking the policies. Maybe it's something to do with the Army's strict adherance to the chain of command...several of the dudes in my squadron are prior Army, and they told me that as an E-2, you didn't even talk back to an E-3. Compare that the the USAF's current attitude, which seems to be a two-striper can call out a captain with no respect or customs and courtesies.

[brabus]

Compare that the the USAF's current attitude, which seems to be atwo-striper can call out a captain with no respect or customs andcourtesies.

And it seems like even worse is said Capt stands a decent chance of getting reamed (sts) by a higher officer if he chooses to put a disrespecting E in their place. Maybe that applies more so to higher enlisted ranks, but geez, it's almost like there's no line between officer and enlisted. Might as well make everyone the same rank the way some people act.

[capt4fans]

OK, I have to add to this debauchery. I will give you that my rout at the 'Deid came last Oct to Feb. But, I successfully managed to go the ENTIRE four month rotation without ever waering my reflective belt either in CC, the BPC, or down at ops regardless of the uniform I was in. So, take this DD's.

Now, I did back myself up and have the reflective belt handy in my jacket pocket (just in case) but I kept my head down, and always walked like I had a purpose. Never, never, never got questioned even once. Take the "high" road and try my approach. And BTW, when did Crocs become a no wear?

That base's CC has no balls. Period.

[lloyd christmas]

And it seems like even worse is said Capt stands a decent chance of getting reamed (sts) by a higher officer if he chooses to put a disrespecting E in their place. Maybe that applies more so to higher enlisted ranks, but geez, it's almost like there's no line between officer and enlisted. Might as well make everyone the same rank the way some people act.

And there is the problem. I have an interesting perspective on this decline of the line between officer and enlisted. I am a current TSgt but am also the son of a retired O-6. I am a 130 loadmaster and he was a 130 pilot. He speaks the language and gives me insight into real old school leadership. I can assure you he reads this thread and is absolutely disgusted with the current leadership overseas. The AF is headed down a real slippery slope with this type of buffoonery in the AOR. It is almost like there are two different Air Forces. One stateside and the other is this laughed at bunch of morons in the AOR. When do these Air Forces converge? When does it become the norm that Es start harassing Os stateside? Why should a MSgt respect a Capt stateside when he doesn't have to respect him in the AOR? We should also keep in mind the level of authority and influence that these MSgts have over 18 and 19 year old AMN who will eventually be the enlisted leaders of this AF. As an NCO, I ask of all of you officers out there... put these Es in their place. Take back this AF. I have no problem doing my part as a E.

Edit for drinking and posting... I leave for Bagram tomorrow.

[capt4fans]

I'm in! I'm about to go into the tents and wait for a ride home. I'd love to spend the last week as part of the resistance.

Just to add more fuel to the fire: I was in there a little after midnight today for my omelet chopped up to become scrambled eggs, and there was a food service two stripper standing behind the food line asking anyone she saw not wearing one to see their reflective belt. As I came through the line, I noticed she herself wasn't wearing one. After she asked a 5th person (yelling across the line) in a minute, I quietly asked: "Where's yours?" She looked down and said, "Well sir, I'm working indoors...." "Indoors huh?" I said and walked away to enjoy my eggs.

Those folks are just doing what they are told, but that's the problem: They are being led to believe this is how you effectively run things in the military.

And for the person who said they sense a little bit of revolt building, its definitely something. That whiteboard telling us we need a reflective belt keeps getting closer and closer to the door and I see more and more people "patrolling." I'm definitely going to take the idea of asking them to send me the line about wearing a belt indoors.

Had to quote the post to fix the spelling errors. Here's an idea. Someone work the email to the SVS/MSG (whichever) CC and ask why his people aren't wearing their reflective belts indoors during hours of darkness.

I know it doesn't solve the problem of the total lack of common sense of wearing a belt INDOORS during hours of reduced visibility....but it hurts them too.

And here's the question, what happens when you're there during the day and a sandstorm hits and no one has their reflective belts on, do they go around and take everyone's food away? Because that is the way their enforcement of this policy is headed. I hate that place and will be glad if I never see it again, unless it's from 25,000 feet.

[JarheadBoom]

And oddly enough, the Army guys are having the most success bucking the policies. Maybe it's something to do with the Army's strict adherance to the chain of command...several of the dudes in my squadron are prior Army, and they told me that as an E-2, you didn't even talk back to an E-3. Compare that the the USAF's current attitude, which seems to be a two-striper can call out a captain with no respect or customs and courtesies.

And it seems like even worse is said Capt stands a decent chance of getting reamed (sts) by a higher officer if he chooses to put a disrespecting E in their place. Maybe that applies more so to higher enlisted ranks, but geez, it's almost like there's no line between officer and enlisted. Might as well make everyone the same rank the way some people act.

Yet again, words fail to convey my thoughts on this.

I don't know how you'd go about doing it (so I'm not really helping here), but you Officers REALLY need to take the fucking power back.

[BQZip01]

Along the lines of bitching out the people who bitch you out, the General (at the CGO meeting I mentioned a few posts ago) specifically said he doesn't want to see his CGO's jacking up the airmen who are out there correcting people on the rules, simply because they are outranked. Sets a bad example.

And therein lies the problem: Anyone publicly and arrogantly correcting a superior in public in such a manner is "conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline. Airman Snuffy has the obligation to let Capt Nutsinavice when his uniform is improper, but he should do it quietly and respectfully; I've told Colonels they were out of uniform (i.e. collar turned up), but done so respectfully and offered to help them fix it. The problem here is Airman Snuffy is a shirt who is blatantly calling out officers in front of enlisted troops. They may be 100% correct (for the sake of argument only, I'll concede they are right about the reflective belt), but the manner in which they are enforcing it violates the UCMJ.

Then let's go to the level that "leadership" endorses this buffoonery and that, IMNSHO, shows an abdication of leadership and violates many core principles to include the UCMJ.

Which is the bigger foul here?

We had a great idea last night to take some extra reflective belts that we had and to carry them to the chow hall with us for dinner to pass out if anyone we saw had forgotten theirs. Well we get to the DFAC and there is a big dry erase board as you enter that basically said “no belt, no service.” On one of the reflective belts I had wrote “services rental”, it was my plan to hand it out as deemed necessary. Upon seeing the giant dry erase I decided to hang it there in case someone needed it. No kidding, I was in there for a few minutes and in walked someone wearing my belt. After speaking to him later on I learned he was part of a C-17 transient crew and he had forgotten his belt, I explained my reasoning and he was thankful, even returned the belt so that it may be passed on another day. I actually saw the Services folks give someone a reflective belt so that they could eat, still puzzled as to why you need one to eat but I will continue to be a good “wingman” and help my fellow airmen out if they forget their belt.

Good job helping out guys from not getting smacked around...

...but this doesn't help the rebellion...

[08Dawg]

It might not be much, but it's a start. I want to be there the day some tired, hungry aircrew just back from God knows where is getting thrown out of the chow hall by SMSgt Powertrip, and then finds the belt hanging at the door. "Hey look, I found one, can I eat now?"

Edit: Please kick my ass for typing DFAC the first time around.

Edited October 25, 2009 by 08Dawg

[pawnman]

It's difficult to take the power back when your own squadron leadership is on the side of the shoe-clerks, crushing you everytime some airman runs to the EFSS/CC with a hurt feelings report. While I agree that much of the behavior needs to be addressed by CGOs, we need some form of top cover if we're going to do it right, even if that top cover is simply the SQ/CC looking the other way when he gets one of those phone calls.

As for the reflective belts, I've been thinking you could try the hot potato approach. Wander in with a group of guys and a single reflective belt. Just pass it off to whoever is being asked to show their reflective belt at the time. I've had success with this approach at the DEL when someone forgot their belt...I bought my beers, went outside and handed off the belt, other guy bought his beers.

Also, I haven't seen anyone accosted for not wearing a reflective belt at the BPC chow hall yet...and we also don't have these giant signs I'm reading about. Probably because the BPC chow hall is where all the senior leadership eats...as little respect as the E ranks seem to have for CGOs anymore, apparently a star will still intimidate them.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

anyone manage to get a picture of the sign? Sounds like a GREAT thing to send in to AF times, drudge and anyone else who might be interested in just what the focus seems to be around here.

[stract]

Edit for drinking and posting... I leave for Bagram tomorrow.

good luck with your inprocessing PT test...

[JS]

anyone manage to get a picture of the sign? Sounds like a GREAT thing to send in to AF times, drudge and anyone else who might be interested in just what the focus seems to be around here.

The huge dry-erase board message is gone. Now the only thing left is the 8 1/2 by 11 sheet of paper in the door plastic holder stating "During hours of darkness no reflective belt no service" and then under that in smaller letters it says "Per EFSS/CC." I believe it is even written as grammatically wrong as I have quoted it - with a total lack of commas when there should be at least two. Way to set the grammar example for our "young airmen." I guess I can still get a picture of the sheet of paper, though, but it is not as sensational.

It also seems that the roving patrols are gone along with the TCN's trying to act like the soup nazi. We were watching guys come in and trying to track the guys without gay belts or with their shirts untucked. They all got served. Rumor has it that denying food and/or forcing TCN's to enforce the faux indoor reflective belt policy is not quite legal and is being investigated.

[BFM this]

Commas, colons, different font sizes, whatev.

[pawnman]

How amateur looking is that sign? Jesus, at least move the second "No" to the next line. It's like they've never seen a sign before.

On the other hand, it's ripe for a Sharpie in its current format.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Rumor has it that denying food and/or forcing TCN's to enforce the faux indoor reflective belt policy is not quite legal and is being investigated.

by whom? the same faceless dickless jackasses that instituted the RB policy in the first place? that's the problem with the deid-- one hand shakes the other whenever it comes to "looking into" things. I've NEVER heard anyone not bitch about the RB policy, they always pass the buck to someone else, and their only job is to "enforce the policy". YGBFSM. Generally, people are not apt to enforce a policy they have no interest of belief in. I sure as shit don't, at least when it comes to Deidtardedness.

Edited October 26, 2009 by Napoleon_Tanerite

[BQZip01]

I think it is important to note that no one here is against following the rules, per se, but we're merely stating that rules need to make sense and have a reason.

If the rationale was "safety first" and everyone wears a belt even if you are wearing PT gear, I think that would have a LOT less flak.

The problem is that the rationale given is "we need to standardize how we enforce the standards." Well, WTF? You are going out of your way to make people's lives more complicated so people can come up with a self-appointed duty (pretty sure that no one deployed as a "reflective belt hall monitor") to harass people in an alleged war zone? Our personnel can tell an AIM-9 from an AIM-120; I think they can figure out if someone is wearing a reflective belt or reflective PT gear and just let them go.

Then we have the genius who takes it a step further and orders that people have to wear it indoors...WTF? What is the purpose of a reflective belt anyway? It's to protect you from getting hit by a vehicle. Call me strange, but it seems that if there is a need to wear a belt indoors, perhaps the safety focus needs to be on the drivers who are causing the safety issue...

Then you have TCNs enforce the policy because some Light Colonel doesn't have the balls to stand up there and face the troops himself?

Edited October 26, 2009 by BQZip01

[JarheadBoom]

Our personnel can tell an AIM-9 from an AIM-120; I think they can figure out if someone is wearing a reflective belt or reflective PT gear and just let them go.

There are more than a few USAF personnel, here on McGuire, who cannot tell a KC-10 from a C-17.

I shit you not.

I have little-to-no confidence that the right people can grasp the concept of "reflective clothing = reflective belt".