Leadership at the 'Deid

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

some of our guys had this patch made up, figured you guys would get a kick out of it

[BQZip01]

I'd volunteer for a year at the Deid if he said this.

3! (hell, I'd volunteer for a 365!!!)

On a related note, the usage of belts, where effective (i.e. the flightline), make sense. It's the excessive wearing of them and the mandated stupidishness I have a problem with (as well as my grammar and use of imaginary words...)

3! (hell, I'd volunteer for a 365!!!)

On a related note, the usage of belts, where effective (i.e. the flightline), make sense. It's the excessive wearing of them and the mandated stupidishness I have a problem with (as well as my grammar and use of imaginary words...)

$50 bottle of scotch to anyone who has the guts to ask why the FOX NFL Sunday folks broadcasting live weren't required to wear the belts...

[BQZip01]

Here's an interesting idea: Set up a booth and sell kool-aid by the cup for everyone going to the meeting...make sure everyone is drinking the kool-aid as the Wing King is speaking...

[capt4fans]

3! (hell, I'd volunteer for a 365!!!)

4!!! and which one is it BQZip01? Would you do a year, or a 365....not sure where the difference is, but feel free to explain.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

A normal year is just under 365 days. Get it right!

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

A normal year is just under 365 days. Get it right!

fail.

1 year = 365.25 days, hence why every four years we have a leap year, containing 366 days

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Damn, I knew it wasn't exactly 365, but maybe I was thinking about lunar years!!!

[BQZip01]

I was agreeing with the previous comment. [sarcasm]I ain't volunteering for the additional 6 hours though...[/sarcasm]

[pawnman]

3! (hell, I'd volunteer for a 365!!!)

On a related note, the usage of belts, where effective (i.e. the flightline), make sense. It's the excessive wearing of them and the mandated stupidishness I have a problem with (as well as my grammar and use of imaginary words...)

$50 bottle of scotch to anyone who has the guts to ask why the FOX NFL Sunday folks broadcasting live weren't required to wear the belts...

And a second bottle if you ask why the AEW/CC wasn't wearing his?

[PolyestherDuck]

And a second bottle if you ask why the AEW/CC wasn't wearing his?

If someone asks this, I'll throw in a bottle myself.

[capt4fans]

If someone asks this, I'll throw in a bottle myself.

I'll add in a bottle as well.

[BQZip01]

I'll add in a bottle as well.

Surely someone is about to retire anyway and wants to go out in a $200 blaze of glory...

[Login Name]

Seriously though.....why don't the cops wear them?

I asked a sky cop this once and his response was that it is not tactical for air base defense. Then I asked why I have to wear it and he said so they know who not to shoot. Sad thing is, I don't think he was joking.

[Flare]

So, we trust the dudes who

1) enter the AF with the lowest ASVAB scores and

2) are out among traffic, etc more than any other AFSC

to police themselves and be ok without reflective belts, but not the rest of us?

Got it.

[pawnman]

I asked a sky cop this once and his response was that it is not tactical for air base defense. Then I asked why I have to wear it and he said so they know who not to shoot. Sad thing is, I don't think he was joking.

How do they keep from shooting each other?

[SuperWSO]

Surely someone is about to retire anyway and wants to go out in a $200 blaze of glory...

I don't even think retirement is required. The boss should have broken this ass chewing/motivation into smaller groups. If you get a group of about 50 aviators in a room and try to talk down to them, you're going to hear at least one bullshit. If the group of aviators has time to stew before hand, critical mass is reached at about twenty dudes. I bet at least two or three bags are going to jump up and call bullshit if this goes as expected. The finance troops and dentists will all be horrified.

[pawnman]

I don't even think retirement is required. The boss should have broken this ass chewing/motivation into smaller groups. If you get a group of about 50 aviators in a room and try to talk down to them, you're going to hear at least one bullshit. If the group of aviators has time to stew before hand, critical mass is reached at about twenty dudes. I bet at least two or three bags are going to jump up and call bullshit if this goes as expected. The finance troops and dentists will all be horrified.

It'll probably only take 10 dudes now that the morning session was cancelled 20 minutes prior...40 dudes bitching the entire way back to BPC about screwing up their sleep cycles to make the morning one since they had crew rest/ground duties during the evening one. Not to mention, I'm sure pretty much every officer on the base will now try to shoe-horn into the BPC theater.

You know, this is my first deployment. I'm enjoying the job. I love flying combat missions. I don't mind the pre-flights, the MPC shifts, the airplane tours...hell, much as I hate to be away from my family, that particular inconvenience is just part of the job. But all this queepy bullshit about reflective belts, PT gear, throwing people out of the chow hall, exercises in a combat location, constant briefings about the right way to do things...these are the biggest drain on morale for me (I suspect I'm not alone). It's almost enough to make me consider pulling the handles when my comittment is up instead of staying the whole 20 years. I'm not to that point yet...but I'm guessing if people were really honest about it, this queepy, rules-oriented mindset it probably one of the biggest barriers to retention we have, even above ops tempo and pay.

[capt4fans]

Any news on if an actual briefing has happened? And please someone get to the BRA as soon as possible and let the rest of us that are not located in Clown Land know what was said.

[Disco_Nav963]

Postponed until Saturday. Stay tuned.

[capt4fans]

Postponed until Saturday. Stay tuned.

Great....now I have to have my weekend ruined by reading about it. It's not enough that tomorrow is Friday the 13th??? I keed. I keed.

[JeepGuyC17]

Hopefully the facebook group will continue to grow exponentially between now and Saturday.

[BQZip01]

Postponed until Saturday. Stay tuned.

I suppose it's too much to hope that they are re-thinking their policy...

Hopefully the facebook group will continue to grow exponentially between now and Saturday.

Tell your neighbors and friends...

[Guest ReflectivityRules]

Postponed until Saturday. Stay tuned.

More time probably means a more muted response. This is the way of politicians, but in this case it might play to the benefit of Air Force personnel hacking the mission.

The Diamond DBags and Chiefs might be keeping the commander up to date on online grumbling, or the commander is polling the subordinate commanders to see how ridiculous things are.

With all these postponed O'Calls, it could be possible a more reasonable AFI supplement is in the works, but I'm not holding my breath.

When Vice Wing Commanders have to tell subordinate commanders to use the old "it's the order of the installation commander" line, then real leadership has failed. No one enforcing a policy should ever have to blame it on higher authority, save critical emergencies requiring imminent action. If an airman asks his first sergeant why he needs to wear a reflective belt at work when he is perfectly fine without one at night with his wife and kids, the first sergeant should be able to provide a logical explanation. Saying "for your safety," "for good order and discipline," "because it's the order of the installation commander" are not logical explanations here. Give us real reasons why we should wear reflective belts EVER.

We all know it's patently absurd to wear them in broad daylight and indoors. But please tell us why airmen need to wear reflective belts at night. Seriously, are there statistics showing that people hit by cars is down with reflective belt wear? How many people get hit by cars on bases every year? How often are people walking around in the middle of the street where cars are? How many injuries has the reflective belt saved by wearing them on the running track or playing flag football? How important is it to need a reflective belt to walk to the shitter, walk to the chow hall, walk across a parking lot, walk from the airplane to the bus? Maybe a good question to ask during the call is to stand up and ask the audience if anyone there has been hit by a car while a pedestrian, and if so, if he thinks a reflective belt would have prevented it. No airman out there, who isn't drunk on Air Force Kool-Aid, believes he is safer with a reflective belt on. Things have gotten to the point where enforcement of this policy is creating unsafe things to happen.

Reading the facebook group stories is a most enlightening look at where our senior enlisted and commanders are focused. A Chief (not wearing reflective belt) stopping his running car in the middle of the road to chastise an airman on the sidewalk? A MSgt grabbing a lunchtray from a LT? Commanders racing across ramps to bitch out aircrew? People putting on belts outside the wire? First Sergeants yelling at airmen for wearing a belt color they personally dislike? A Marine being tossed out of the chow hall for not wearing an AF reflective belt? Article 15s being handed out? Security Forces being called to enforce reflective belt policy? A services commander threatening to have an airman arrested for wearing Crocs?

Reflective belts are the epitome of Cover Your Ass leadership. They have no utility, serve no useful purpose, most likely contribute nothing to actual safety, but provide leadership an out if something goes wrong. Drunk driver ran into a bicyclist on base? Give the biker an article 15 for not wearing his mandatory belt that leadership so strenuously orders be worn. Or, if the biker has his belt on, leadership can say they did everything possible to prevent the mishap. Either way, they got CYA nailed. Good job leadership. Way to use stupid policies to protect yourself.

Hopefully the Wing King is taking note of the relevant concerns of the people doing the mission, and will eliminate the worthless belt and its overzealous enforcement from his base. He needs to lead, and get his SNCOs and support personnel focused on contributing to the mission, and lose the focus of asinine and overzealous enforcement of petty, non-mission related policies. Being over-politically oriented these days probably means a muted command response at this point. He won't show total disrespect and disregard for his predecessors' policies by completely doing away with the nonsense that is several years in the making. The policies might be revised merely enough to try to stop so many personnel from bitching, but will still be illogical. This is the way most of the 21st century AF leadership is. Where are the LEADERS.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

This thread is long overdue for a reality check. Guys keep asking where the LEADERS are, they're all over this board. We have people of all ranks here who come on and bitch, and then happily go to work the next day with their reflective belt in hand because we all know that nobody's going to do or say anything about it. There's no more Oldses or Boyds or Mitchells out there, or in here. It's amazing the cognitive dissonance that goes on with guys who will risk life and limb going into hostile fire to kill the enemy, but are too afraid to speak up about something that so clearly bothers them. Then again, a war hero flag waving patriot is socially acceptable to the military community. Someone who questions authority or doesn't play the game isn't.

Reflective belts will continue on because it's easier to stay quiet and be a good little air-space-cyberspace warrior who follows the rules, plays the game, and climbs the ladder. Hell, even I admit that I take the path of least resistance, but then again I'm not the one here trying to pass the leadership buck to others.

not sure about others, but i've pushed this up through my chain last time I was at the deid, both through my squadron, and through wing safety, and got nowhere. My lowly 1Lt rank doesn't go far for making things like that happen. I'll fight the good fight through resistance, but this is a battle suited for O-4 and above I'm afraid.

[tac airlifter]

This thread is long overdue for a reality check. Guys keep asking where the LEADERS are, they're all over this board. We have people of all ranks here who come on and bitch, and then happily go to work the next day with their reflective belt in hand because we all know that nobody's going to do or say anything about it. There's no more Oldses or Boyds or Mitchells out there, or in here. It's amazing the cognitive dissonance that goes on with guys who will risk life and limb going into hostile fire to kill the enemy, but are too afraid to speak up about something that so clearly bothers them. Then again, a war hero flag waving patriot is socially acceptable to the military community. Someone who questions authority or doesn't play the game isn't.

Reflective belts will continue on because it's easier to stay quiet and be a good little air-space-cyberspace warrior who follows the rules, plays the game, and climbs the ladder. Hell, even I admit that I take the path of least resistance, but then again I'm not the one here trying to pass the leadership buck to others.

You ought to rethink your post. If an 0-7 installation Commander issues an order that I think is stupid, I still have an obligation to obey. And I wouldn't tolerate open insubordiation or mutany or whatever it is you are calling for with the "do anything about it" line. I can't do anything about it except bring it up to my boss, which happens ALL the time. Ergo, people come here to bitch about this inane policy because what else can we do without going to jail? The fact is, if the boss orders me to dress like a clown I still have to do it. I lead in my capacity, who are you to say I (we) don't?