Leadership at the 'Deid

[slacker]

"head for homeplate SOUTH due to WX". A quick sat call to ops confirmed that unforecasted ice fog and smoke from burning trash had taken vis down to a no-shit 50' or less.

Next time, you'll know that it's less painful to shoot 10 approaches to mins, never break out, run out of gas, and crash into a mountain, than to divert to the Deid.

We've all learned a valuable lesson here today- there is no Wx bad enough to force you to divert to the silliest place on earth.

[DFRESH]

Because of the ATO cycle, we ended up being there for 33 hours. We were hasseled three separate times by an E-8 or E-9 for wearing our watch caps, with my personal favorite being just outside the chow hall: After not saluting me or the co, a SMSgt gives us a nice witty, "So what little game are you guys playing here?? What's the deal with the caps?" We just looked at him, turned, and walked into the chow hall.

Now I'm just a half-retarded ROTC cadet who is no more knowledgeable of the inner workings of the Air Force than your average 1st grader, but would this be a situation to fix on a very small level what is wrong with the Air Force now? If every time some shoe clerk CMSgt or SMSgt or any lower ranking shoe pulled some shit on a higher ranking officer, and the higher ranking officer stood up to them (still knowing their balls could very well end up in a vice for it) and gave them a quick "I out rank you, obviously I have a reason for the caps, or I wouldn't be f'n wearing them, if you have further questions I would be happy to tell you plenty more about how f'd up the regs are at XYZ base." (or something at all), would we start seeing a change? Is it possible the higher ups are so inundated with BS that some regs honestly make it by without their knowledge of the true effects? (that's just the youngness in me wanting to see good in people) Maybe if more and more officers stood against the flow of BS, we would see changes?

Disclaimer (longer than most drug ad disclaimers): Please do not use this as a chance to sling Poo. Yes, I am not commissioned, No, I do not (obviously) have wings. Should I STFU and color? Probably. We have already covered the fact that I'm a retarded ROTC cadet, so please don't bring it back up. This is an honest question, & I'm not trying to call anyone (esp. Bergman) out on anything, but really just trying to figure stuff out. Seriously, I to each of you who do what I dream of, and I'm sure it's just because I haven't done the work necessary to get to your point that I don't understand why you wouldn't be willing to lay it on the line to fix your Air Force. I also understand this is a possible thread hijack, and I'm ready for it to be deleted or moved by the mighty moderator Gods. Again, please don't sling poo, honest answers appreciated.

[BQZip01]

Now I'm just a half-retarded ROTC cadet who is no more knowledgeable of the inner workings of the Air Force than your average 1st grader, but would this be a situation to fix on a very small level what is wrong with the Air Force now? If every time some shoe clerk CMSgt or SMSgt or any lower ranking shoe pulled some shit on a higher ranking officer, and the higher ranking officer stood up to them (still knowing their balls could very well end up in a vice for it) and gave them a quick "I out rank you, obviously I have a reason for the caps, or I wouldn't be f'n wearing them, if you have further questions I would be happy to tell you plenty more about how f'd up the regs are at XYZ base." (or something at all), would we start seeing a change? Is it possible the higher ups are so inundated with BS that some regs honestly make it by without their knowledge of the true effects? (that's just the youngness in me wanting to see good in people) Maybe if more and more officers stood against the flow of BS, we would see changes?

Disclaimer (longer than most drug ad disclaimers): Please do not use this as a chance to sling Poo. Yes, I am not commissioned, No, I do not (obviously) have wings. Should I STFU and color? Probably. We have already covered the fact that I'm a retarded ROTC cadet, so please don't bring it back up. This is an honest question, & I'm not trying to call anyone (esp. Bergman) out on anything, but really just trying to figure stuff out. Seriously, I to each of you who do what I dream of, and I'm sure it's just because I haven't done the work necessary to get to your point that I don't understand why you wouldn't be willing to lay it on the line to fix your Air Force. I also understand this is a possible thread hijack, and I'm ready for it to be deleted or moved by the mighty moderator Gods. Again, please don't sling poo, honest answers appreciated.

You crazy ROTC Nazi. What makes you think that the Air Force needs any fresh ideas!?!

To answer your question, the reason is that these shoe clerks work for much bigger shoe clerks. If you chew them out (rightly so), they are going to report back to their boss that some guys from your unit (oh, and he'll be happy to take down some names too) chewed him out for enforcing local policy. In short, in this kind of situation, discretion is the better part of valor. Now if a SSgt did the same thing, I wouldn't hesitate to dress him down right there.

The other option is to carry a copy of the reg that authorizes it (not the whole thing, just a scaled down printed version of that page. Example: I carry a switchblade with me when in uniform; I have never once said to myself, "man, I wish I didn't have my switchblade with me," but too many times I've said the converse. Some genius on base once stopped me when he saw me using it and told me it was illegal to possess such a weapon. In general, he was right, but military personnel are exempted from this law when in the performance of our duties. I show him a copy of the U.S. law which states that. He looked at me and said, "Oh."

In short, when dealing with shoe clerks who know a lot about their opinions, but little on facts and regulations, it helps to be able to bring them crashing back to hard reality and out of their protective shoe clerk world.

Edit: Pre-emptive strike to take out an ammo depot for the grammar nazis

Edited December 13, 2008 by BQZip01

[Skitzo]

Now I'm just a half-retarded ROTC cadet who is no more knowledgeable of the inner workings of the Air Force than your average 1st grader, but would this be a situation to fix on a very small level what is wrong with the Air Force now? If every time some shoe clerk CMSgt or SMSgt or any lower ranking shoe pulled some shit on a higher ranking officer, and the higher ranking officer stood up to them (still knowing their balls could very well end up in a vice for it) and gave them a quick "I out rank you, obviously I have a reason for the caps, or I wouldn't be f'n wearing them, if you have further questions I would be happy to tell you plenty more about how f'd up the regs are at XYZ base." (or something at all), would we start seeing a change? Is it possible the higher ups are so inundated with BS that some regs honestly make it by without their knowledge of the true effects? (that's just the youngness in me wanting to see good in people) Maybe if more and more officers stood against the flow of BS, we would see changes?

Yeah that might work, but here's the thing. When you do something like that it always bites you in the arse. Say for example you are rolling around the Deid in your stylish PT jumpsuit and you have your hands in your pockets because it's actually cold in the desert and you get stopped by a MSgt and told to remove your hands from your pockets because its a tripping hazard. You then proceed to tell the NCO that that is the most retarded thing you ever heard and that you are cold and walk away. Let that marinate a few days and come to find out that the NCO is some first sergeant and now your commander is chewing your ass out. In a normal 1v1 a Maj beats MSgt Schmuckatelly but when you have a well connected MSgt versus Maj I'm an ADO Busting my ass its like a Raptor plinking Tweets out of the sky, they never had a chance.

Besides, fixing problems requires real leadership and I think education and rehabilitation is in order for offenders. They are the victims of false warriorization.

[Guest Slowmover]

false warriorization

I like that. Is that like when they set up humvees and machine guns so the people who hand out basketballs at the gym can make people believe that they slayed the Taliban?

Most ridiculous thing I ever saw at the Deid... that and the time some idiot called in a bomb threat in the CC because there was a fire extinguisher sitting by one of the water shacks.

[brickhistory]

I in no condone/defend the buffoonery that's written about here, but for the thought that it's a recent syndrome, not so much:

In every conflict, including those from before there was a USAF, the initial stages of a war are about killing/holding the line. As things get better, REMFs (phrase has also been around forever) move in and make the rules.

Nose art of WWII was given as an example of the 'good old days.' In forward areas before mass communications or with complete censorship as was practiced, the babes and disrespectful, but cool, names could exist. Once some of the more outrageous (some would say outstanding, but I digress) nose art examples made it back via the press, the brakes were put on in most places.

I forget the name, but there was a congressman, during the war, who was shocked by the nose art. Big Green, the predecessor to Big Blue, put out guidelines on what was permitted. Again, the further you were from civilization, the more that was ignored. 8th AF nose art rarely featured bare boobs, etc. 13th AF in the ass end of the world in the Pacific had some stuff that would make Hustler blush.

Some other examples - remember the scene in "Patton" where he mandates everyone wear a necktie? Based on historical truth. Think those guys didn't think it was their version of 'reflective belts?'

The shirt tucked in scene from "The Caine Mutiny" is also from historical truth. Pettiness or trying to outdo your competition in queep to get noticed/advanced isn't new.

Why is Olds held in such high esteem? Because he flouted the REMF attitude prevelant in Vietnam USAF - his combat mustache, etc. All those things wer forbidden by senior leaders. Once those leaders started appearing in Vietnam, the Wild West days started to go away.

Olds got it - these small things helped with morale during long periods of war as in Vietnam or today. The endless grind of what we're doing means that small safety valves help keep bigger problems from occuring. Mostly.

The lights out leadership sees it as the first frayed thread of good order and discipline. If allowed, then bigger and worse problems will begin.

They're wrong, but they're just repeating history.

Which is what we as humans usually do.

It will take a new Olds to tell the emperor his clothes are missing.

Any out there?

crickets, crickets.....

Edited December 13, 2008 by brickhistory

[Kelvin]

First of all, I totally agree with everything you just said. Hopefully with all the bitching we do around here, someone will end up in a place to do something about it. Or is Baseops and all its ideas totally off-limits to CC's? If I were a squadron commander, seems to me a forum like this would be one of the best ways to keep up with the pulse of my airmen... At least as far as the bad stuff goes.

I have to ask, though, what's a REMF?

[MD]

First of all, I totally agree with everything you just said. Hopefully with all the bitching we do around here, someone will end up in a place to do something about it. Or is Baseops and all its ideas totally off-limits to CC's? If I were a squadron commander, seems to me a forum like this would be one of the best ways to keep up with the pulse of my airmen... At least as far as the bad stuff goes.

I have to ask, though, what's a REMF?

Rear Echelon MotherFucker. Classic shoeclerk.

[Kelvin]

Understood. Putting that one in the ole' notebook for later.

[BQZip01]

Understood. Putting that one in the ole' notebook for later.

converse is RAMF: RedAss motherfvcker

[Bergman]

Ahh welcome to the Deid. We were on the ramp about to taxi when we heard your call. Yes the 'follow me' is generally for the C-17's and the 130's. You definitely called it about passing the 6 board.... I've never been to Manas but I'd much rather be there...

*edit* Is there no flight line map in your pubs bag? hell, I dont even know if there are any in our nifty folders...

I would have thought our "Shell" callsign was a good indicator of aircraft type, but apparently that was lost on TA. Oh well...we definitely didn't ace the program that night, but we got the jet on the ground safely after a long night, which is what counts in the end (sts).

I can definitely confirm that, yes, Manas is much-preferred to the Died. I would pick Manas 10 out of 10 times before going back to OTBH. Unfortunately, looks like the ANG won't have a choice much longer....

As for the flightline diagram...the only one we had at the time was the airfield diagram in the FLIP, which of course doesn't show the individual taxi lanes on Delta ramp. Our crew binder was much more robust after this little incident. My overall impression is that the divert kit was designed by/for people who had been to the Deid before, and thus had taken a great many things for granted. We addressed those issues with the staff and hopfeully have things straightened out now.

Now I'm just a half-retarded ROTC cadet who is no more knowledgeable of the inner workings of the Air Force than your average 1st grader, but would this be a situation to fix on a very small level what is wrong with the Air Force now? If every time some shoe clerk CMSgt or SMSgt or any lower ranking shoe pulled some shit on a higher ranking officer, and the higher ranking officer stood up to them (still knowing their balls could very well end up in a vice for it) and gave them a quick "I out rank you, obviously I have a reason for the caps, or I wouldn't be f'n wearing them, if you have further questions I would be happy to tell you plenty more about how f'd up the regs are at XYZ base." (or something at all), would we start seeing a change? Is it possible the higher ups are so inundated with BS that some regs honestly make it by without their knowledge of the true effects? (that's just the youngness in me wanting to see good in people) Maybe if more and more officers stood against the flow of BS, we would see changes?

Disclaimer (longer than most drug ad disclaimers): Please do not use this as a chance to sling Poo. Yes, I am not commissioned, No, I do not (obviously) have wings. Should I STFU and color? Probably. We have already covered the fact that I'm a retarded ROTC cadet, so please don't bring it back up. This is an honest question, & I'm not trying to call anyone (esp. Bergman) out on anything, but really just trying to figure stuff out. Seriously, I to each of you who do what I dream of, and I'm sure it's just because I haven't done the work necessary to get to your point that I don't understand why you wouldn't be willing to lay it on the line to fix your Air Force. I also understand this is a possible thread hijack, and I'm ready for it to be deleted or moved by the mighty moderator Gods. Again, please don't sling poo, honest answers appreciated.

DRFRASH, I hear ya bro. The problem is that, as has been mentioned before, you can "do the right thing" and have a conversation with said E-8 or E-9, and win that particular battle on that particular day. The problem occurs when your O-5 or O-6 boss calls you on the carpet and chews your ass because the E-8/9 in question has been making a stink about some Major telling him to STFU. Ultimately, you may win the battle but lose the war. It's complete bullshit, and believe me I am not one to lay down and take it (sts), but after being hammered by an O-6 who is more interested about not rocking the boat and protecting their career than "doing the right thing", you quickly learn which battles to fight. It really is a complete failure of leadership at the top levels, but there isn't much hope when you're fighting an O-4 vs. O-6 battle.

[Skitzo]

I guess it really begs the question then how to keep the E-8/9 crowd from unfairly influencing Colonels over hard charging Captains/Majors? I'm assuming the ones causing the most problems are the guys who don't have a sane person watching over them. Who can blame them for bitching when the guy is just in earshot of the Colonel and don't know a damn thing about proper decorum? I'm sure there are those that just blatently disregard the chain of command as well.

Could we start a seeing common sense dog program? Maybe train the dog to bark once if the shoe's idea is bad and two if it's good? It would be really easy for the dog because we'd only have to train him to bark once. Let's face it...even man's best friend could tell some of these things going on are smellier than his a-hole from a mile away.

I really wish it was as easy for us to victimize them... well maybe it is. From now on any E-8/E-9 wishing to speak to an officer about a uniform issue should have to come to the position of attention, address you by your rank and ask permission to make a statement. Then you can say no and be on your way. If someone in leadership could make it as painful as possible for them to inconveience us they won't want to do it.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Skitzo

[ASUPilot]

I went to lunch the other day with a retired CMSgt and the current group CMSgt. This topic came up and I stated that I wondered when the hell did it become acceptable for an enlisted member to approach an officer and "correct" them on something as gay as uniform wear. I was told by said chiefs that the problem is that aircrew thinks it's "cool" to rebel against things like reflective belts and proper wear of PT gear, and that doing so is being a good crewdog. Something like "officers should be the best examples and if they need to be corrected then ANYONE should correct them." A robust conversation ensued.

This would have never happened when my father was flying in the AF. It's weird to me that say an E-5 thinks it's okay to go up to an O-5 and tell him his flight suit zipper is too low, that his sleeves shouldn't be up, that his morale patch is unauthorized, or that he should have his reflective belt on...not having any clue what this guy was just doing or how long he'd just been flying. I don't say anything to O-5's. To me, this isn't about maintaining standards; it's about FAILED officer leadership allowing this sort of environment to exist. I'm a Captain, and I show Majors more respect than most enlisted cats show me. When an O-5 or above is talking to me, I stand up.

I know the pecking order...I know where I fit in the hierarchy...I KNOW MY PLACE! Like everyone, I see things everyday, but you know what, it's no my job to correct a superior officer unless it's safety or safety of flight related. And if anyone says reflective belts are "safety" related, find the nearest corner and fvcking choke yourself. We're not all equal in the military...don't we have rank and pay charts to differentiate who is above who(STS)? Why is this so hard to understand? I worry about myself; I don't look for or say anything to my O-5 supervisor or O-6 boss, ever. I'm too busy with real work to even notice something as gay as a uniform infraction.

Needless to say, the Chiefs didn't agree with me on much. But that's okay. I treat everyone very well. I don't run around telling people how high to jump since I'm an officer. In reality, as a Captain I'm usually the bottom of the food chain. I do, however, expect people to know their respective place...I know mine. The Chiefs were annoyed...maybe they thought I was a prick. Maybe I am, but the bottom line in my mind is that I'm higher than them in the food chain, period. Take away: know your place.

Edited December 14, 2008 by ASUPilot

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Things are different. I enlisted in the ARNG in 1992, and I can remember being a one- and two-striper in the Army Guard. Even when I was an E-5, I didn't approach officers and SNCOs unless it was really important. I didn't waste their time telling them that their BDUs looked a little faded, or that their ear plug case was on the wrong side. Honestly, I didn't care about it. All I cared when it came to them was "is this guy a good officer/SNCO, or not". And I judged that by how they managed their people and how they made decisions, NOT little queep on their uniforms.

For what it's worth, in 1992-1993 when I was junior enlisted, I had no concept of wearing reflective belts, and we would work construction sites well into the night with heavy machinery. If you can't see, turn on a light. If you can't turn on a light or don't have one, don't put yourself into a position to get hurt. It's pretty simple.

[afnav]

Great posts from Bergman and ASUPilot.

The other services know we are busted. If they didn't realize it before, the firings of the SECAF and CSAF probably clued them in. Being in a joint command, I get ribbed from the other three all the time.

When Blues Monday made it's appearance, a knob chief walked up to a Navy chief I work with and excitedly asked him what he thought of the new policy. He replied that he didn't care, since he would wear the same uniform he always did: khakis. He was then asked what the AF members thought of it. My guy's reply: "I don't know chief, but I think they ######ing hate it."

I'm just wondering when the current leadership (the GOs, O6s, and senior NCOs) will figure out they aren't wearing clothes.

[Skitzo]

It's unfortunate some organization say like the Company Grade Officer's Council couldn't author a combined memo stating these things more eloquently than we have. If every CGOC from every base did this...

Then again the CGOC would have to be more feedback vice community service oriented.

[sputnik]

....but you know what, it's no my job to correct a superior officer unless it's safety or safety of flight related. And if anyone says reflective belts are "safety" related, find the nearest corner and fvcking choke yourself. We're not all equal in the military...don't we have rank and pay charts to differentiate who is above who(STS)? Why is this so hard to understand? I worry about myself; I don't look for or say anything to my O-5 supervisor or O-6 boss, ever. I'm too busy with real work to even notice something as gay as a uniform infraction.

There's two sides to that. I've been known to rush out of the gym with the flight suit collar folded under. Looks retarded. I'm always amazed when I notice it later, and none of the 5 zillion people I walked by in the squadron bothered to tell me. And when someone does, I'll say thanks. I had a bad ass E6 JTAC come up and kind of nervously tell me I had some badges on my BDUs f'ed up. He was assuming [correctly] that I didn't know. I thanked him, I'd be walking around looking dumb.

This in no way mitigates fuckstains checking socks at the chowhall or reflector belts or.... Sometimes people fuck up uniforms accidentally, and appreciate a heads up.

[Bergman]

It's unfortunate some organization say like the Company Grade Officer's Council couldn't author a combined memo stating these things more eloquently than we have. If every CGOC from every base did this...

Then again the CGOC would have to be more feedback vice community service oriented.

A novel concept, but I suspect this would get crushed by the first O-6 that heard of it. On a side note, it's amazing to me how the senior leadership seems to offer little/no support to the CGOs, yet constantly pander to the E-5s and below in an attempt to improve retention and morale. I don't know when or how it happened, but our pecking order has definitely gotten f*cked up.

Another good story from this last trip:

One of our staff ADOs (Major) had just finished his 12 hour shift and walked over to the coffee house to get a cup. It's is 0800 and about 25 degrees outside. He is wearing his gortex coat and a watch cap. His free hand is in his pocket.

As he's walking, he hears from behind him, "HEY!! Get your hand out of your pocket!". It didn't register that the guy was talking to him, so he keeps walking. Again, closer this time, "HEY! I SAID GET YOUR HAND OUT OF YOUR POCKET!". At this point, he realizes that he does have a hand in his pocket (GOD FORBID!) and that the person might actually be talking to him. A few more steps, and the guy is now right behind him yelling about the getting his hand out of his pocket. My friend turns around, only to find a MSgt and 4 cronies standing there. They see the rank on his gortex and proceed to give him a half-assed salute, which they dropped before he even raised his hand to salute them (it was, after all, in his pocket). If you're going to be critical, you had better have your shit squared away too. Needless to say, my buddy is fairly agitated at this point.

What follows is the most classic response ever. He says to the MSgt, "Well thanks for correcting me. You know what, now that we're all standing here with our hands out of our pockets, why don't we police this area for trash?" He tells one of the others, "Hey airman, run and go grab a few trash bags." The guy comes back with the bags, and the Major and 5 enlisted guys spend the next 30 minutes picking up trash.

I would be surprised if any of those guys ever comment on someone's pocket usage again. A brilliant stroke of out-shoe-clerking the shoe clerks, IMHO. I just wish I had thought of it first.

[BQZip01]

There's two sides to that. I've been known to rush out of the gym with the flight suit collar folded under. Looks retarded. I'm always amazed when I notice it later, and none of the 5 zillion people I walked by in the squadron bothered to tell me. And when someone does, I'll say thanks. I had a bad ass E6 JTAC come up and kind of nervously tell me I had some badges on my BDUs f'ed up. He was assuming [correctly] that I didn't know. I thanked him, I'd be walking around looking dumb.

This in no way mitigates ######stains checking socks at the chowhall or reflector belts or.... Sometimes people ###### up uniforms accidentally, and appreciate a heads up.

Couldn't have said it better. I think the entire process is the problem here.

If Airman Snuffy is walking along minding his own business and quietly tells me, "Hey, sir, your collar is folded over," and even helps me fix it in the back, great! One team, one fight. He's looking out for me. The key is that he doesn't make a big deal about it.

If 1st Sgt Snuffy sends out an e-mail to all other 1st Sgts on the base saying, "Hey we're gonna go walking around the barracks looking for uniform violations. Meet at the bar at 1800L if you wanna come with! We already have 7 people and could use a few more." [bTW, true story], well, you aren't going to get the same cordial reaction. For officers, subordinates are calling them out in public in front of peers and other subordinates; you're gonna get an uncooperative, awkward reaction. Do it to airmen in front of their peers and it's the same kind of reaction. Problem here is that it doesn't seem we're on the same side and you WILL get an "us vs. them" kind of reaction.

If they would simply pull someone aside in passing and tell them, "You need to wear black socks with your ABUs." and leave it at that, they'd probably tell their buddies and everyone would make sure to be wearing black socks within a week: PROBLEM SOLVED and no one feels like "they're against us". As for reflective belts, if you find someone without a reflective belt, have an extra and say, "Hey, you can just return it tomorrow. I work over in XYZ." It'll go a LOOOOOOONG way in giving the impression that you are on their side.

Please realize the above is only reflective on how to HANDLE such policies. The wisdom of some policies is another matter altogether.

Edited December 14, 2008 by BQZip01

[Stiffler]

Bergman, Great story!

I was at Manas a few years ago, hands in pockets in the SNOW, and had someone yell at me from across base... "Hands out of pockets! Hands out of pockets..." repeatedly. I didnt do it. He got progressively louder! I kept walking.

I should have had him get a trashbag....

[HuggyU2]

So, therefore in true Died tradition, no omelets.

Any of you remember PSAB around '03? There was about a 3-day period where the omelet line got so long, that they decided to shut it down. Yep: it was so popular that it should be STOPPED!

Now, the billeting compound was a good drive from the main base, e.g. the flightline. Most folks rode a shuttle bus. However, higher ranking officers had cars, and as they departed the compound, they would swing by the bus stop and offer to fill any empty seats in their car with riders.

Well, a couple of days after the omelet ban, the 2-star picks up a couple of enlisted guys. During the ensuing ride to the flightline, he asks "so gents,... how are things going?" Turns out the only gripe they had was the omelet ban. And they apparently bitched about it well enough that the following day, the Wing/CC was told to get the omelet line up and running again.

Victory.

As for these stories of E-7's and up running to some CC after getting in an argument, and the CC coming down on their officers, I've got to ask: are all the commanders that y'all work for that spineless? Honestly, I've seen a few that would do this, but they are in the extreme minority.

Being a passed over guy is a nice thing: I say what I think is true and correct.

Maybe that's why I'm a passed over guy.

Edited December 15, 2008 by Huggyu2

[BQZip01]

Any of you remember PSAB around '03? There was about a 3-day period where the omelet line got so long, that they decided to shut it down. Yep: it was so popular that it should be STOPPED!

Now, the billeting compound was a good drive from the main base, e.g. the flightline. Most folks rode a shuttle bus. However, higher ranking officers had cars, and as they departed the compound, they would swing by the bus stop and offer to fill any empty seats in their car with riders.

Well, a couple of days after the omelet ban, the 2-star picks up a couple of enlisted guys. During the ensuing ride to the flightline, he asks "so gents,... how are things going?" Turns out the only gripe they had was the omelet ban. And they apparently bitched about it well enough that the following day, the Wing/CC was told to get the omelet line up and running again.

Victory.

The small victories are sometimes the sweetest

[Fozzy Bear]

To all operating in this area:

It doesn't matter if you have an airfield diagram, because this place isn't marked correctly - on purpose, actually, but that's another discussion. Don't trust what you have. It's out of date or illegal, pretty much no matter what you have. Unless someone in your jet has been here very recently and you trust them, roll to the end and do not move until you have a follow me (not progressive). We're training locals in the tower, but the troops up there right now are actually good, so use plain English to explain the situation. Saying KC-135 over the air is better than having to be towed out of somewhere you're not supposed to be. Like the dunes around us, this place is always changing, and a lot of it isn't visible from the tower. Ask for the Ops freq for your respective airframe - tower will have it, then you can talk more freely to your kind of people.

Al Dhafra doesn't even have legal approach plates. Trying to redo the divert stuff here, I had to just get an email from them and print out "new" plates and diagrams/ no dates. It's not in the FLIP, but you guys knew that already.

Manas guys, sorry bros, we're working hard to get better, but yes, we are re-inventing the wheel, one brand new captain after another. It sucks.

The waiting for trans, yeah, I do that every day for an entire deployment; sometimes up to an hour.

[JarheadBoom]

I know the pecking order...I know where I fit in the hierarchy...I KNOW MY PLACE!

Knowledge of one's place - a trait which is FAR too rare in what I've seen of the United States Air Force in my brief 2 1/2 year AF career. Un-fucking-sat. Goes right back to what I wrote in the "CSAF for a day" thread.

Another trait lacking in today's AF - TACT. Un-fucking-sat as well.

It is 100% OK (in my book) for an E-5 to correct an O-5, if said O-5 is doing something wrong (choose your own violation - it really doesn't matter).

BUT.... it must be done tactfully!

A proper salute and a quick-and-quiet "Hey sir/ma'am, check your ________________." will suffice. Been there, done that, was thanked by a Commandant of the Marine Corps once upon a time for keeping him from looking like a shitbird when he stepped off the ramp of my aircraft.

And if that O-5 says "Noted." and keeps on doin' what he/she's doin', then you walk away and LEAVE IT THE FUCK ALONE. No public spectacle, no bordering-on-insubordination remarks; quick and quiet. Never in my wildest fucking dreams would I shout across a compound/street/chowhall/whatever at someone, whose rank I did not know, to stop doing something... unless that something was about to cause someone's no-shit injury or death.

- Total absence of tact and knowledge-of-place is (in my opinion) the leading cause of ANY enlisted person thinking that they can talk to an officer in some of the ways that have been brought-up in this thread.

- The piss-poor leadership, that supports that insubordinate enlisted person, is guilty of conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline (using the UCMJ terminology since I feel it applies here).

*** These are my opinions. They're worth precisely what you paid for them. Don't flip the fuck out if you don't like them; you're entitled to your own... and if you don't like mine, I probably won't like yours.

[BQZip01]

Knowledge of one's place - a trait which is FAR too rare in what I've seen of the United States Air Force in my brief 2 1/2 year AF career. Un-######ing-sat. Goes right back to what I wrote in the "CSAF for a day" thread.

Another trait lacking in today's AF - TACT. Un-######ing-sat as well.

It is 100% OK (in my book) for an E-5 to correct an O-5, if said O-5 is doing something wrong (choose your own violation - it really doesn't matter).

BUT.... it must be done tactfully!

A proper salute and a quick-and-quiet "Hey sir/ma'am, check your ________________." will suffice. Been there, done that, was thanked by a Commandant of the Marine Corps once upon a time for keeping him from looking like a shitbird when he stepped off the ramp of my aircraft.

And if that O-5 says "Noted." and keeps on doin' what he/she's doin', then you walk away and LEAVE IT THE ###### ALONE. No public spectacle, no bordering-on-insubordination remarks; quick and quiet. Never in my wildest ######ing dreams would I shout across a compound/street/chowhall/whatever at someone, whose rank I did not know, to stop doing something... unless that something was about to cause someone's no-shit injury or death.

- Total absence of tact and knowledge-of-place is (in my opinion) the leading cause of ANY enlisted person thinking that they can talk to an officer in some of the ways that have been brought-up in this thread.

- The piss-poor leadership, that supports that insubordinate enlisted person, is guilty of conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline (using the UCMJ terminology since I feel it applies here).

*** These are my opinions. They're worth precisely what you paid for them. Don't flip the ###### out if you don't like them; you're entitled to your own... and if you don't like mine, I probably won't like yours.

2 :notworthy: :notworthy: