Leadership at the 'Deid

[BQZip01]

So is this a joke?

At least you wouldn't have to leave your room to take a leak...

...The problem is not the reflective belts; we all want people to be safe. It is the excessive mandated use (why do you need it if you aren't going anywhere near a road? Why on earth would you need it indoors? Why would you need it to eat?) and the punitive actions taken against those who say, "wait a minute, this doesn't make sense."

The commanders needs to stand up and ask for some common sense to lead the way. If you still want to be anal about it, make a rule that no one can be within 30 feet of a road at night without a reflective belt on...or better yet, simply provide adequate lighting to make the belts unnecessary.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

This email went out to shirts today, names XX'ed out to protect the names of the guilty

so if that's coming from the AFCENT shirt, is the gist to "knock it off, you look like a bunch of buffoons" or a "crush the resistance" message?

This has finally broken free of being contained within the Deid. The polka dot pants and red rubber noses of several "leaders" are starting to show to people not directly related to the Deid.

[killacam]

Does anyone have the actual AFI/AUABI that calls for saluting "recognizable officers" in PT gear when downrange? I can't actually find it anywhere manually or with the search function for some reason even though I'm sure it's already been posted...

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Does anyone have the actual AFI/AUABI that calls for saluting "recognizable officers" in PT gear when downrange? I can't actually find it anywhere manually or with the search function for some reason even though I'm sure it's already been posted...

it was posted in this thread a few pages back. It's the AUAB SUPP to AFI 36-2903 dated something like 4 Oct 09 or so.

[pawnman]

I don't want to bring the thread down any further, but saluting in PT gear is making a comeback.

On the other hand, I saw a guy last night wearing an orange traffic vest with flashing red LEDs. It rocked.

You probably won't be seeing that again. Our DO pretty much outlawed that vest and the belt-buckles in a recent email. Sadly, every time one of these events goes down, our squadron leadership tends to side with the REMFs.

The recycling urine thing is pretty funny...I plan to print a few out and hang them in our dorm...and, if I'm feeling brave, at the bulletin board for the BPC chow hall.

[BQZip01]

You probably won't be seeing that again. Our DO pretty much outlawed that vest and the belt-buckles in a recent email. Sadly, every time one of these events goes down, our squadron leadership tends to side with the REMFs.

The recycling urine thing is pretty funny...I plan to print a few out and hang them in our dorm...and, if I'm feeling brave, at the bulletin board for the BPC chow hall.

Make sure you designate a drop off area...like the chow hall or the BRA. Perhaps you should "seed" the project by dropping off a few bottles filled with lemonade...

Edited November 6, 2009 by BQZip01

[BitteEinBit]

Does anyone remember the time when an O-7 or O-6 gave an order and people followed it? What is happening with the leadership and discipline in our ranks? I haven't been to the Deid since they went to wearing PT gear all the time, so I can't fully appreciate what is going on there. But, from an outsider's perspective, it appears that the leadership there has completely lost control and no one respects them enough to just wear the belt.

For an O-6 WG/CC or CV to have to send out an e-mail to other O-6s on base telling them to organize shifts so they can monitor a simple policy like "reflective belt wear" tells me that someone does not have command of that base or they have WAY too much free time. I remember a time when an O-6 would tell his commanders "Handle this" and the commanders took care of their own people. But now we are posting commanders at chow hall and BX entrances to enforce basewide reflective belt wear? Seriously? Someone please tell me this is a joke! Someone tell me that deployed commanders have more important things to worry about than that....tell me that deployed commanders aren't turning tired and hungry people away from the chowhall for not having a reflective belt.

I thought I've seen it all...

[JarheadBoom]

Does anyone remember the time when an O-7 or O-6 gave an order and people followed it? What is happening with the leadership and discipline in our ranks? I haven't been to the Deid since they went to wearing PT gear all the time, so I can't fully appreciate what is going on there. But, from an outsider's perspective, it appears that the leadership there has completely lost control and no one respects them enough to just wear the belt.

For an O-6 WG/CC or CV to have to send out an e-mail to other O-6s on base telling them to organize shifts so they can monitor a simple policy like "reflective belt wear" tells me that someone does not have command of that base or they have WAY too much free time. I remember a time when an O-6 would tell his commanders "Handle this" and the commanders took care of their own people. But now we are posting commanders at chow hall and BX entrances to enforce basewide reflective belt wear? Seriously? Someone please tell me this is a joke! Someone tell me that deployed commanders have more important things to worry about than that....tell me that deployed commanders aren't turning tired and hungry people away from the chowhall for not having a reflective belt.

I thought I've seen it all...

Does anyone remember a time when LEADERS didn't issue chickenshit directives like "Wear a reflective belt with your reflective PT gear!", or "Wear a reflective belt while indoors at the chowhall, or no soup for you!", or "Your running shoes can't be colorful!"?

The leadership of the United States Air Force has become so risk-averse they can't see the forest for the trees re: the whole reflective belt fiasco. I'm convinced that THEY REALLY DO NOT GET IT.

If we keep pushing back against the stupidity... I have a feeling we haven't seen anything yet.

[HoHum]

They've been busy designing the new front gate sign...

[Guest Scooby]

Does anyone remember the time when an O-7 or O-6 gave an order and people followed it? What is happening with the leadership and discipline in our ranks? I haven't been to the Deid since they went to wearing PT gear all the time, so I can't fully appreciate what is going on there. But, from an outsider's perspective, it appears that the leadership there has completely lost control and no one respects them enough to just wear the belt.

For an O-6 WG/CC or CV to have to send out an e-mail to other O-6s on base telling them to organize shifts so they can monitor a simple policy like "reflective belt wear" tells me that someone does not have command of that base or they have WAY too much free time. I remember a time when an O-6 would tell his commanders "Handle this" and the commanders took care of their own people. But now we are posting commanders at chow hall and BX entrances to enforce basewide reflective belt wear? Seriously? Someone please tell me this is a joke! Someone tell me that deployed commanders have more important things to worry about than that....tell me that deployed commanders aren't turning tired and hungry people away from the chowhall for not having a reflective belt.

I thought I've seen it all...

Does anyone remember a time when Officers actually used their rank to protect their people rather than use it to keep getting themselves promoted?

Rank is something that needs to constantly be earned. I see so many Officers who get promoted and do NOTHING with their new rank because they want to keep getting promoted. They'd rather just inconvenience all of their people rather than have a throw down with their commander. It makes me sick to be part of the Officer corps.

The leadership of the United States Air Force has become so risk-averse they can't see the forest for the trees re: the whole reflective belt fiasco. I'm convinced that THEY REALLY DO NOT GET IT.

If we keep pushing back against the stupidity... I have a feeling we haven't seen anything yet.

Unfortunately, it's not just about RBs. My unit just went through an LCAT (logistics inspection) and we got some incredibly BS write ups. My flight got one mission related write up and several BS safety inspection write ups. One of our safety write ups - I shit you not - was having drinks in an office environment. Apparently some safety standard somewhere says that it's not allowed and our inspector wrote us up for it.

I just had to sit through a meeting with wing leadership where I was basically told to shut up and color. No arguing with the inspectors so just take your grade and move on.

Why? Why didn't you fight back on stupid write ups and defend us? I was so pissed on the drive home....I'm still pissed thinking about it. And of course my SQ leadership sat there and said nothing. I'm pissed at myself for not saying something...I didn't want to throw down with the Wing King as a 1Lt but I really should have said something. I will without a doubt be talking to my SQ/CC when I go back to work on Monday...

[slacker]

I will without a doubt be talking to my SQ/CC when I go back to work on Monday...

Please don't. Inspectors inspect. They find stuff, it's a game. Hopefully, you'll get a few meaningless write up that you can correct in an email response. Game over, for a few years. Let your SQ/CC worry about real crap, not the silly write ups in a stupid inspection. Shut up and color, trust me.

[Guest Scooby]

Please don't. Inspectors inspect. They find stuff, it's a game. Hopefully, you'll get a few meaningless write up that you can correct in an email response. Game over, for a few years. Let your SQ/CC worry about real crap, not the silly write ups in a stupid inspection. Shut up and color, trust me.

We got written up for CE-installed eye wash stations that have passed base safety inspections and UCIs for the past 4 years. I didn't want to throw wing safety under the bus in front of the Wing King so I shut my mouth. But I will damn sure be making my feelings known to my boss.

Like I said, we had one legitimate write up that definitely needs attention. All of the safety stuff was complete BS...our facilities get inspected yearly and they pass every year. I'm supposed to tell my people that we deserved a Sat b/c a subjective inspector felt like being a dick?

I will formally present my protest to my SQ/CC. When he tells me to STFU and get back to work then I will. But I have an obligation as Flt/CC to defend my flight from BS like this.

[JS]

I've looked here on baseops and on google but can't seem to find exactly what DD means the way it is used here on the forum. I've been out a few years but can't recall it being used back in the day??!! I'm sure it will be obvious when you tell me, but somebody please do so.

For the visual learner....

Note the diamonds on their rank. This is a picture circa Sept, 2009, of the "Desert Diamonds." The thing that strikes me the most about the picture is that most of them could probably care less about the flag hanging at half-staff in the background as compared to busting people's chops about reflective belts and sunglasses on the head.

[Q1Checkride]

For the visual learner....

Note the diamonds on their rank. This is a picture circa Sept, 2009, of the "Desert Diamonds." The thing that strikes me the most about the picture is that most of them could probably care less about the flag hanging at half-staff in the background as compared to busting people's chops about reflective belts and sunglasses on the head.

oh i'm sure some of them bitched about that one guy wearing sunglasses in formation after the pic was taken.

[sky_king]

For the visual learner....

Note the diamonds on their rank. This is a picture circa Sept, 2009, of the "Desert Diamonds." The thing that strikes me the most about the picture is that most of them could probably care less about the flag hanging at half-staff in the background as compared to busting people's chops about reflective belts and sunglasses on the head.

Desert Diamonds: After Dark

* artist's rendition

[JS]

Desert Diamonds: After Dark

* artist's rendition

You are waaaaaay off on that one because A) They are wearing reflective belts at NIGHT to make themselves more visible, and B) They are using a little logic and common sense in wearing them in a low-visibility environment.

This is much more of a realistic scenario:

[Wing Sweep]

Does anyone remember the time when an O-7 or O-6 gave an order and people followed it? What is happening with the leadership and discipline in our ranks? I haven't been to the Deid since they went to wearing PT gear all the time, so I can't fully appreciate what is going on there. But, from an outsider's perspective, it appears that the leadership there has completely lost control and no one respects them enough to just wear the belt.

For an O-6 WG/CC or CV to have to send out an e-mail to other O-6s on base telling them to organize shifts so they can monitor a simple policy like "reflective belt wear" tells me that someone does not have command of that base or they have WAY too much free time. I remember a time when an O-6 would tell his commanders "Handle this" and the commanders took care of their own people. But now we are posting commanders at chow hall and BX entrances to enforce basewide reflective belt wear? Seriously? Someone please tell me this is a joke! Someone tell me that deployed commanders have more important things to worry about than that....tell me that deployed commanders aren't turning tired and hungry people away from the chowhall for not having a reflective belt.

I thought I've seen it all...

Answers in order:

1. Yes

2. Our leadership at the Deid is not leading and focused too much on the "company" rather than the mission. Discipline is there, most of us are just passively resisting rules that make NO sense.

3. Yes

4. Yes

No one respects our leadership because our leadership doesn't respect us enough to let common sense prevail (from queep all the way to flight ops). It is like being at a Shoe Flag/Shoe Camp on steroids! Reflective belts, spotters for backing up, lame immigration rules for flyers, emboldening enlisted troops to correct officers in public, etc... The list is long and distinguished (sts), but believe me it is not just admin queep. It goes straight to the heart of flying operations as well. The CAOC cronies think of themselves as an MWS (most, not all). People are too afraid to make changes because of the following attitude: "Fu*& it! I'm leaving in a month. It's not worth swimming upstream and fighting this battle even though it's the right thing to do." I have seen and heard too many O-5 and O-6s with this attitude!

You are correct in that they don't have command and most people on base do have too much free time on their hands.

It is not a joke! Reflective belts nazis (O-5 and above) are at the front doors of chowhalls. Commanders do have more important things to do and yes, they are being forced to turn away tired and hungry people from the chow hall for not wearing reflective belts. This is something an O-5 could easily tell the Wing King, "Sir, I'm too busy with combat ops to worry about Mickey Mouse bulshit! If you want to give me paperwork for not complying with your order, so be it. I just have far more important things to worry about than Amn or Capt Snuffy wearing a reflective belt to the chowhall."

Our squadron commanders should not be blindly following orders that don't make sense! Stand up and tell the Wing King this is bullshit! I'm a CGO and I certainly tell my leadership (O-5 level) when something is bullshit. Why are so many people afraid?! Your leaders will respect your opinions as long as you have a real and achievable solution. I know some commanders are way past using common sense, but keep fighting for what is right!

This is exactly why there is such an uprising (in the form of passive resistance). Leadership is focused on all the wrong things while our guys in the fight have it all right. Common sense and focus on the fight has completely been thrown out the window. Maybe the Wing leadership realizes this, but they are too afraid to make the changes necessary to correct the wrongs of past Wing Kings. In other words, they don't want to be leaders. They just want to follow and say, "I'll do my time and get my next rank." That's the easy way out, but it's not leading.

This all stems from the systematic de-balling of our officer corps with the way we operate at so many levels. To all you officers out there, I say don't give up hope and lets take our Air Force back! It will take years to make the changes we need, but there is hope if we are willing to see the change through. For those of you that care, please, please, please have the courage to do the right thing!

[BQZip01]

Our leadership at the Deid is not leading and focused too much on the "company" rather than the mission. Discipline is there, most of us are just passively resisting rules that make NO sense.

No one respects our leadership because our leadership doesn't respect us enough to let common sense prevail (from queep all the way to flight ops). It is like being at a Shoe Flag/Shoe Camp on steroids! Reflective belts, spotters for backing up, lame immigration rules for flyers, emboldening enlisted troops to correct officers in public, etc... The list is long and distinguished (sts), but believe me it is not just admin queep. It goes straight to the heart of flying operations as well...People are too afraid to make changes because of the following attitude: "Fu*& it! I'm leaving in a month. It's not worth swimming upstream and fighting this battle even though it's the right thing to do." I have seen and heard too many O-5 and O-6s with this attitude!...You are correct in that they don't have command and most people on base do have too much free time on their hands.

SHACKED!

Our squadron commanders should not be blindly following orders that don't make sense!

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Our commanders are also subordinates. They are obligated to follow orders. However, they should also voice their concerns through appropriate channels. If the Wing Commander wants to make a stupid rule, we have to follow it. Passive resistance, to a certain extent (to emphasize the problem is all right; people have to able to blow of steam or they will explode), is fine. But outright disobedience is not.

A squadron commander should take orders (even those he protested) and say, "Guys, we are doing XYZ now." He is a leader and those orders from the commander need to be appropriately followed and disseminated. It shouldn't matter if they came from the CAOC, NAF, Wing, Group, or Squadron level. As long as it is a valid order, it should be followed. Passing the buck by saying, "The Wing Commander says we have to do XYZ from now on," is poor leadership. The squadron commander should stand up and say, "We're gonna do XYZ from now on. If you have any concerns, bring it up through your chain of command," and deal with those concerns appropriately. It is BS to say to a subordinate, "Listen, I know you have a concern about it, but I'm not going to bring that up. It'll just get shot down." That is acquiescence, not leadership or followership.

Stand up and tell the Wing King this is bullshit! I'm a CGO and I certainly tell my leadership (O-5 level) when something is bullshit. Why are so many people afraid?! Your leaders will respect your opinions as long as you have a real and achievable solution. I know some commanders are way past using common sense, but keep fighting for what is right!

This is exactly why there is such an uprising (in the form of passive resistance). Leadership is focused on all the wrong things while our guys in the fight have it all right. Common sense and focus on the fight has completely been thrown out the window. Maybe the Wing leadership realizes this, but they are too afraid to make the changes necessary to correct the wrongs of past Wing Kings. In other words, they don't want to be leaders. They just want to follow and say, "I'll do my time and get my next rank." That's the easy way out, but it's not leading.

This all stems from the systematic de-balling of our officer corps with the way we operate at so many levels. To all you officers out there, I say don't give up hope and lets take our Air Force back! It will take years to make the changes we need, but there is hope if we are willing to see the change through. For those of you that care, please, please, please have the courage to do the right thing!

The Squadron Commanders answer to the GROUP Commander, not the Wing King. They should voice their concerns to their Group Commanders, preferably en masse. The solution here is for the group commanders to get together and discuss it and come up with a unanimous concern to bring to their Group Commander WITH a solution. That way, the Gp/CC can tell the Wg/CC, "100% of my commanders have a problem with this and propose the following to alleviate that concern..."

The rest of your assessment is right on the mark or at least is the impression that leadership is giving.

[HoHum]

I like it. BQZip bringin' a solution and some good advice.

[capt4fans]

This post brought to you by the IHRB Group on Facebook.

"This conversation took place between 4 Air Force Security Police and 1 Marine at Al Udeid AB last week...

AF: Hey man, you know you can't eat in here (Dining Facility) without a reflective belt at night.

Marine: No. Why?!?

AF: There's a sign on the door, I know you saw it.

Marine: Nope, must have missed it.

AF: Well you have to leave until you get a belt.

Marine: Can I just finish my food.

AF: No.

Marine: Well, I'm just going to sit here and finish my dinner, then I'll leave. It's a ridiculous rule anyway.

AF: You have to leave now sir, its an order.

Marine: What's an order?

AF: You can't be served food at night without a reflective belt.

Marine: That makes no sense.

AF: If you don't leave immediately, we will have to arrest you.

Marine: Are you f*cking kidding me?

AF: That's it, stand up.

Marine: You guys can go to hell (leaves his tray on the table and storms off)."

[magnetfreezer]

This post brought to you by the IHRB Group on Facebook.

"This conversation took place between 4 Air Force Security Police and 1 Marine at Al Udeid AB last week...

AF: Hey man, you know you can't eat in here (Dining Facility) without a reflective belt at night.

Marine: No. Why?!?

AF: There's a sign on the door, I know you saw it.

Marine: Nope, must have missed it.

AF: Well you have to leave until you get a belt.

Marine: Can I just finish my food.

AF: No.

Marine: Well, I'm just going to sit here and finish my dinner, then I'll leave. It's a ridiculous rule anyway.

AF: You have to leave now sir, its an order.

Marine: What's an order?

AF: You can't be served food at night without a reflective belt.

Marine: That makes no sense.

AF: If you don't leave immediately, we will have to arrest you.

Marine: Are you f*cking kidding me?

AF: That's it, stand up.

Marine: You guys can go to hell (leaves his tray on the table and storms off)."

UFB...

Hope the Marine's chain of command brought down some pain afterwards.

[pawnman]

I've never seen a Marine in a reflective belt...Not sure, but I think it may be part of their parent uniform reg. In any case, I'd have been sorely tempted to force them to arrest me. At what point did this level of disobedience begin warranting arrests? (See also, Crocs and the EFSS commander).

Somehow, this Marine was safer walking back to his room, in the dark, sans belt, than he was inside a brightly lit chow hall. It's become sheer idiocy.

[BQZip01]

This post brought to you by the IHRB Group on Facebook.

"This conversation took place between 4 Air Force Security Police and 1 Marine at Al Udeid AB last week...

AF: Hey man, you know you can't eat in here (Dining Facility) without a reflective belt at night.

Marine: No. Why?!?

AF: There's a sign on the door, I know you saw it.

Marine: Nope, must have missed it.

AF: Well you have to leave until you get a belt.

Marine: Can I just finish my food.

AF: No.

Marine: Well, I'm just going to sit here and finish my dinner, then I'll leave. It's a ridiculous rule anyway.

AF: You have to leave now sir, its an order.

Marine: What's an order?

AF: You can't be served food at night without a reflective belt.

Marine: That makes no sense.

AF: If you don't leave immediately, we will have to arrest you.

Marine: Are you f*cking kidding me?

AF: That's it, stand up.

Marine: You guys can go to hell (leaves his tray on the table and storms off)."

This explains the Marine O-6 going jarhead on Wing leadership...

...do these brain donors realize that Marines are not legally allowed to wear reflective belts?!?! This is just asking for a lawsuit.

[Guest Sandlapper]

This post brought to you by the IHRB Group on Facebook.

"This conversation took place between 4 Air Force Security Police and 1 Marine at Al Udeid AB last week...

AF: Hey man, you know you can't eat in here (Dining Facility) without a reflective belt at night.

Marine: No. Why?!?

AF: There's a sign on the door, I know you saw it.

Marine: Nope, must have missed it.

AF: Well you have to leave until you get a belt.

Marine: Can I just finish my food.

AF: No.

Marine: Well, I'm just going to sit here and finish my dinner, then I'll leave. It's a ridiculous rule anyway.

AF: You have to leave now sir, its an order.

Marine: What's an order?

AF: You can't be served food at night without a reflective belt.

Marine: That makes no sense.

AF: If you don't leave immediately, we will have to arrest you.

Marine: Are you f*cking kidding me?

AF: That's it, stand up.

Marine: You guys can go to hell (leaves his tray on the table and storms off)."

There are few among us who have the power and/or nutsack to derail this nonsense. Pretty soon, the reason for wearing disco belts will become, simply, "we've always done it that way". Unfortunately, the Robin Olds of today is a passed-over Major watching the fashion channel in his trailer, waiting to get alerted for another 18-hr mission. Those are the guys that *would* fix this insanity...but it's jut not going to happen. FYI - you won't find the up-and-coming elite in today's USAF bothering themselves with such pettiness as a deployment to the 'Deid. Tomorrow's decision makers are (by design) cut from the same cloth as those who "strat" them on OPR's. Most haven't developed the healthy cynicism most of the crew-dogs of the world have - and they should be ashamed. Of course - there are exceptions - but don't get too giddy about a facebook page changing anything. It's a great outlet for frustration...but nothing more than a modern twist on the Desert Penguin, eDodo, etc.

Can anyone here name a previously ridiculed policy that was actually overturned by a majority's outcry? I can't. TQM doesn't count, and AFSO21 is next...that, too, will die a slow & meaningless death in time, once all the promotions are wrung out of it & folks realize its ineffectiveness - but that'll be the only reason. So if anyone really feels like stepping on their crank in front of the Wg/CC regarding reflective belts - have at it. There's an Italian chick on the fashion channel...I'm busy.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Arresting people for not wearing a reflective belt? Really? I'd like to find out how that's legally justifiable. Sure, commanders have a pretty wide berth when it comes to things they can enforce, but they are still accountable for making sure they have some kind of reasoning. IE, that's why they can't give someone an Article 15 for busting their PT test the first time, etc. Arresting someone for not having a reflective belt? Wow. I would be embarrassed to say I was responsible for that kind of madness.