MC-12 Liberty info

[Guest Safe&Clear]

It appears the moderators don't want this thread out there. But that's ok, cause the "AMS Robot" took care of the topic for us.

Check your inboxes at work, guys. If you're an eligible volunteer, you'll find info there (and lots of it!)

S&C

[LJ Driver]

This is not a secret fellas. The cat is out of the bag and should be discussed within normal opsec common sense rules.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/09/...d_rc12_091708w/

https://www.tsjonline...y.php?F=3729972

https://www.airforce-magazine.com/DRArchive...piAirGuard.aspx

https://www.fox40now....l/28454504.html

[M2]

In LJ Driver's defense, he may not have seen the buffoonery in the previous thread (that no longer exists)...

At least I hope so. That had to be the most blatant display of low/no SA I have seen in a long time! Just for LJ Driver's edification (and anyone else who is interested), a bonehead who shall not remain nameless (di1630) posted the AMS automated email message concerning the RC-12 complete with the caveat that said it was not for public release! Not surprisingly, numerous people reported the post, and the entire thread was shut down (by me).

I understand there is a lot of info on it via open sources; but the problem is that this site already falls under the scrutiny of the USAF and stupid moves like posting unclassified but non-releasable information (which includes FOUO) on here only causes us great asspain! If people want to share official or sensitive information, it should be done via official channels such as .MIL email addresses or SIPRNET.

This saves us from a lot of grief, so we appeciate everyone's cooperation!

Cheers! M2

[Guest FCI]

Here's a blanket answer for most of the questions posed.

-Right now, IQT will be about 2.5 weeks at Flight Safety International in Atlanta flying the 350 sim.

-MQT will be about 4 weeks with the Guard in MS.

-179 tdy to the desert immediately after MQT.

-Some people who are in the initial ranks will stick around and see the program through to the end (if there is one). Others will only be part of the program for a tdy before they move to a number of different things throughout the AF.

-Those sticking around will PCS to the yet undecided base(s) after their 179 and continue with the MC-12 program. They are eventually looking at an East and West coast base option.

A lot of the figuring out "how this thing will work" is just going to have to happen overseas. Bottom line is they've got a plan and are moving forward.

[pittsdriver]

From what I hear the MC-12 is going to stay in ACC, so we shall see. Also, after my initial training and 179 when I come back to Barksdale, I will only have a year left on my commitment so I will not be PCSing anywhere unless it is my choosing (one of the few advantages of being right near the end of my committment). So, if for some reason after my deployment I come back and they don't hold their end and send me to AETC (which I would voluntarily extend my committment for), there will be no PCS in my future and I will just hang out at Barksdale for a year and when my committment is up and I will pull chocks and go my separate way from the AF. I am in a lot better position than say someone who have 4-5 years left and being sent to this type of assignment. On another note, I don't mind flying the B-52, its just the fact that I hardly fly at all here.

Edited December 5, 2008 by Pittsdriver

[Guest Safe&Clear]

The Army's had a fleet of C-12s very very similar to these for years; you'd think they (the Army) would just buy more and/or upgrade their existing systems if there's such a pressing need for this type aircraft. The planes, pilots, subject-matter-expertise, and basing!! already exist-- at least to some degree.

Is the Air Force trying to re-invent the wheel again?? Or is this another turf-war? Granted, the "new mission" may be so completely different that this is a necessary endeavour. But somehow I doubt it.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Safe&Clear

[HiFlyer]

The Army's had a fleet of C-12s very very similar to these for years; you'd think they (the Army) would just buy more and/or upgrade their existing systems if there's such a pressing need for this type aircraft. The planes, pilots, subject-matter-expertise, and basing!! already exist-- at least to some degree.

Is the Air Force trying to re-invent the wheel again?? Or is this another turf-war? Granted, the "new mission" may be so completely different that this is a necessary endeavour. But somehow I doubt it.

Nope, the Air Force isn't inventing this wheel, and it isn't a turf war. The SECDEF decided the Services (all of them) weren't focusing enough on what was working well in the current fight, so he put together a special team and tasked them to figure out what we had (in the ISR world) that worked well and what we needed to do in the short term. Then he went into the budget and identified money that was not getting spent (i.e., production money that couldn't be spent in that fiscal year because the project was not ready to move to the production phase), or excess funds from completed projects, or lower priority projects, etc. The task force came up with over a billion dollars. He then personally reviewed proposals to apply those dollars to projects that could be made operational in the FY 09 and 10 time frame and allocated the money to those projects. Project Liberty was one such project. It took a very successful Army program and applied the lessons learned to a "new" set of equipment. He gave the project to the AF because they had the capability to organize and apply the assets. The Army didn't have enough structure to quickly (in one year) absorb all the new requirements, but the AF did (people, ground infrastructure and assets). The Air Force saluted smartly and accepted the mission (a smart move, I suspect, or the new CSAF would have been the former CSAF the next day). Frankly, its a kick-ass mission, even if it may not sound sexy to the un-informed! And who gives a s**t what they call it? By the time you fly it, it'll have a name.

Edited January 26, 2009 by HiFlyer

[Guest Hueypilot812]

The Army RC-12s focus primarily on SIGINT, whereas the USAF MC-12 is essentially a manned Predator, much like the airplanes the Iraqi Air Force operates over here. Primarily an optical camera platform with the ability to beam the images to users on the ground. I have a strong suspicion that the USAF aircraft will be more capable than the IqAF aircraft.

And regarding the MC-12T, there's already a C-12T in the system. Those aircraft are essentially B200s that were designated C-12Fs and upgraded with glass instrumentation. Looking at all the current models in the inventory, MC-12V or MC-12W is appropriate. I don't know of a C-12V, unless there is an RC-12V currently in the works for the Army (they upgrade the Guardrail aircraft every so often and redesignate it).

I had asked about info regarding these assignments (actual AFPC info I can find online) because this does appeal to me, but as something in the future. Now I'm slated to go to the C-130J. Beyond that, I'll have one, maybe two more assignments before I retire, and I want to avoid that staff/desk job like the plague...

[M2]

To preempt any questions, the MC-12 thread has been temporarily set to invisible due to a question concerning sensitive information being posted in it. We moderators will review and adjust the thread as necessary, and will bring it back online as soon as possible.

In the mean time, everyone who was posting in that thread needs to review the 'OPSEC and this site' thread which you can do conveniently by clicking on the aforementioned title (it is linked).

If you want to go into detailed discussions on this airframe and there is even the remotest possibility that what you post is sensitive, then take it to NIPRNET or even SIPRNET. If there is even the slightest chance it is classified, then DON"T POST IT on this unclassified forum! If there is any question as to what is being posted is sensitive, the mods will err on the side of caution and delete it. Don't bitch about it as that is our jobs, and if you like BaseOps then you can thank the mods for the thankless job of making sure it doesn't get shut down completely.

Honestly, I wish we could start a version of this forum on SIPRNET and direct people there. In all seriousness, I may take a look at doing so on Intellipedia or some other forum on there, just to have one central place where these discussions could occur without the risk of causing an OPSEC violation.

But in the mean time, curb your enthusiasm for posting information that may catch the attention of those monitoring this forum. It's not just the mods on here who are watching what is being posted...

Cheers! M2

[Guest Crew Report]

Because you take a Form-8 check in the MC-12 at MQT, you're no longer qualified in your old MWS.

If your Form 8 hasn't expired in your old MWS, how are you NOT still qualified?

[HeloDude]

If your Form 8 hasn't expired in your old MWS, how are you NOT still qualified?

Can't be dual qualified unless there is specific guidance (regs, waiver, etc) to let you do so. I lost my qual in the Huey once I had a FM 8 saying I was qualified in the Mi-17. When I got back I was given a CC's directed requal to get back in the Huey.

[Jughead]

Because you take a Form-8 check in the MC-12 at MQT, you're no longer qualified in your old MWS.

Not necessarily--depends on how your Sq/CC reads 11-202V1, which is where that "new Form 8 makes the old Form 8 expire" rule comes from:

2.2. Requalification Training. An aircrew member is unqualified upon expiration of his or her qualification

evaluation, loss of currency exceeding 6 months (for currency items specified in applicable

AFI 11-2 MDS-Specific, Volume 1, according to paragraph 3.4.3.2.), or completion of a qualification

evaluation in a different MDS (EXCEPTION: multiple qualification, see paragraph 2.4.), whichever

occurs first. [emphasis added]

That exception is where your commander can authorize you to fly in your "old" aircraft after IQT/MQT and before you deploy (assuming you're otherwise still qualified in the airplane):

2.4. Multiple Qualification. MAJCOMs may authorize qualification in more than one MDS aircraft

for crewmembers only when such action is directed by command mission requirements and is economically

justifiable. This authority cannot be delegated below the MAJCOM level, except HQ

AFMC, which may further delegate, but not lower than wing commander. (Does not apply to aircrew

members selected for reassignment to another MDS who attend training prior to PCS. Flying squadron

commanders will review reassignment training and validate requirement for multiple qualification

prior to aircrew member flights in original aircraft. Multiple qualification authorization under this

exception terminates when the aircrew member signs out from the losing organization.) [...] [emphasis added]

Yes, there's room to interpret this as n/a (since you're "deploying" not "PCSing." That's why I say it boils down to what your CC wants to do. BL, several folks who have gone the MC-12 route have flown their original aircraft after IQT and before deploying, based on this exception.

BTW, if you really want to barracks lawyer this one, you could also argue that the MC-12 isn't an MDS, so the para 2.2 criteria don't apply....

[Kikuchiyo]

BL, several folks who have gone the MC-12 route have flown their original aircraft after IQT and before deploying, based on this exception.

The above line is true, but the situation and timelines have changed. You could quite legally fly after IQT, because you didn't take a Form 8 check from the civilian sim instructors. Then you headed straight from MQT to the AOR after taking your checkride. Folks didn't have a chance to fly their old MWS after their Form 8. But now, guys will return to their base for a few weeks after their check. So the fact that guys flew after IQT and before deploying is not relevant to whether they can fly after MQT and their checkride.

[Jughead]

The above line is true, but the situation and timelines have changed. You could quite legally fly after IQT, because you didn't take a Form 8 check from the civilian sim instructors. Then you headed straight from MQT to the AOR after taking your checkride. Folks didn't have a chance to fly their old MWS after their Form 8. But now, guys will return to their base for a few weeks after their check. So the fact that guys flew after IQT and before deploying is not relevant to whether they can fly after MQT and their checkride.

The IQT is being treated as a full-up Form 8 check--your QUAL and INSTM dates are the date of the sim check. The final Form 8 is produced at Meridian, w/ that INSTM/QUAL date and the MSN date of the checkride. The reason no one has flown after MQT has more to do with the timeline (i.e., you're en route to the desert w/in a week of MQT completion) than the paperwork.

I don't doubt doubt for a moment that this is being handled differently by different bases, different commands, different commanders, or even on different days of the week. I would argue, though, that this exception pretty clearly applies to this situation (in spirit, if not by the letter)--and several others have done so, at least up to now. YMMV, of course.

[kapilot]

Second question, can a reservist volunteer for the U-28/M-28/Dash-8 program?

Cheers.

[Combat Platypus]

Reservist pilots and CSO's are involved in the U-28 via the 5th SOS. See the jobs section on this site. https://www.guardreservejobs.com/viewprofile.php?sel=profile&id_vac=348

There is currently no reserve structure at Cannon except for nonflying IMA's. Cannon is on the list for the 2nd SOS (pred's) to move to, but many have threatened to quit if that happens.

Cheers'

[Baseops.Net]

1.) Regarding this platform and anything else that even remotely infringes on the OPSEC "grey area" -- we have a Baseops site on the SIPR side... and not long ago I added a ton of stuff on this platform. When in doubt, go on the Red LAN.

2.) As far as your customer not knowing what your platform can do (capes) - that can only be overcome by closely marrying your unit (supporting force) with your user/customer. This means close integration, sitting side-by-side with your customer, spending as much time learning/listening/studying their CONOPs as you do mission planning on the aircraft side, and building relationships (which will be hard to do with one-and-done rotations by the aircrew). How do I know what I am talking about? I did that mission 6 years ago - the one that spawned the current generation of platforms.

[Hacker]

2.) As far as your customer not knowing what your platform can do (capes) - that can only be overcome by closely marrying your unit (supporting force) with your user/customer. This means close integration, sitting side-by-side with your customer, spending as much time learning/listening/studying their CONOPs as you do mission planning on the aircraft side, and building relationships (which will be hard to do with one-and-done rotations by the aircrew). How do I know what I am talking about? I did that mission 6 years ago - the one that spawned the current generation of platforms.

This is a significant difficulty when:

- Manning comes from a wide range of platforms and a wide range of experience, many of which have no core knowledge of CAS, ISR, or the related disciplines, and

- Personnel are only in the platform for a very short, temporary tour, which makes a VERY steep learning curve for the crews and a challenge to maintain corporate knowledge in the organization.

[contraildash]

This is a significant difficulty when:

- Manning comes from a wide range of platforms and a wide range of experience, many of which have no core knowledge of CAS, ISR, or the related disciplines, and

- Personnel are only in the platform for a very short, temporary tour, which makes a VERY steep learning curve for the crews and a challenge to maintain corporate knowledge in the organization.

1)is there anything someone like myself can do prior to/and durring IQT that can help prepare for that?

2)With Beale being the beddown, is the plan to start holding onto folks and treating it like a MWS?

[Bluto]

1)is there anything someone like myself can do prior to/and durring IQT that can help prepare for that?

2)With Beale being the beddown, is the plan to start holding onto folks and treating it like a MWS?

Just focus on learning the plane especially the FMS and autopilot during IQT. You'll have plenty of time to self study during MQT and there are more and more IP's (Active Duty) showing up at Meridian that have experience in both theaters.

As far as I know they are still asking for permanent party to start standing up the squadron but not making you stay.

[Hacker]

For folks who don't have a background in ISR or CAS, and know they're headed to an MC-12, you need to start getting familiar with the JP 3.09-3 and the JFIRE.

It's all fine and well to be pragmatic and say, "you can study all that at MQT", but the reality is that in order to even understand how to apply MC-12 CONOPS and tactics, one has to first understand the larger backdrop in which the airplane operates. Those documents and more are unclassified and available on the MC-12 CoP for download.

It's NEVER too early to begin to try and understand that, especially for someone who doesn't have practical experience in that area from their primary MWS.

[Baseops.Net]

This is a significant difficulty when:

- Manning comes from a wide range of platforms and a wide range of experience, many of which have no core knowledge of CAS, ISR, or the related disciplines, and

- Personnel are only in the platform for a very short, temporary tour, which makes a VERY steep learning curve for the crews and a challenge to maintain corporate knowledge in the organization.

I concur; the 100% RFF manning for this program poses many problems - this program was definitely not dealt a good hand of cards. Back when the concept of this program was still on paper-only, I wondered how this would evolve. When CDR AFSOC did not express interest in resourcing/manning/owning this program and it was handed over to ACC, followed immediately by the Message stating there would be no PCS, and all manning would be single rotations... I knew this platform would not be interoperable with its SOF Air counterparts in theater.

One of the biggest advantages to the way we did (and still do) business is the establishment of long-term relationships between the SOF Air (whether it be ISR or other mission set) and the "user" on the ground. Training with the same people back in garrison, seeing the same faces on VTC at home and deployed, multilat training, and of course the many, many rotations supporting the same teams leads to a comfort level with you as a person, your unit, and your platform. I'm not sure how to overcome this one without completely changing the manning for the unit.

[HuggyU2]

Some MC-12 guys I know asked me to pass this on for them.

If you are going to the MC-12, your lodging options in Atlanta for your ~18 course at Flight Safety are varied.

Lodging rate is $132.

Many choose the Atlanta Hilton on Virginia Ave. It's walking distance to FSI or 4-5 minutes driving. If you call FSI, the concierge (Bridgette) can book your room, or you can get their Corporate Code and do it yourself. With that code, it's $105/night, including free internet, parking, and a $15 coupon for food (no booze) in the hotel. Hilton HHonors points. Not the best Hilton out there, but ok.

A gazillion other hotels are in the same area.

Marriott and Renaissance good choices if you collect Marriott points. But you might pay for internet, parking,... and probably no food voucher unless you can convince the manager to cut you a good deal.

Probably the best deal is a townhouse that a guy owns as a rental property. Military pilots pay $132 night, and he gives you a $30/day food credit for anywhere you want: restaurant, grocery store, whatever.

You do not have to find a 2nd person, but finding another pilot in your class to live there too would be ideal.

Owner is a Delta ground instructor, and former Marine pilot. Great guy.

Two master bedrooms, each with private bath. Full kitchen. Free internet. Garage parking. 5-6 minutes to FSI. 3 minutes to the interstate. About 2 minutes to Manchester Arms (popular watering hole). The place is less than a year old, and was built to a high noise standards, due to proximity to airport. You can't hear a thing.

https://www.atlflyinn.com/

Edited April 8, 2011 by Huggyu2

[2xAGM114]

Intel current as of April 2011.

-Stay at the Hilton Atlanta Airport as others have suggested. $15 meal voucher x 18 days, plus free parking, plus wi-fi, plus the executive lounge (free breakfast/snacks/drinks/appetizers). Nice perks when you're on the crazy sim schedule.

-memorize the boldface which is available for download on the myflightsafety.com website. Learn it before showing up. Won't be required to pass the academic test, but crucial as you approach the checkride.

-academic test at the end of week one, correctable to 100%. The "focused test review" just prior to the test was nice, but unnecessary.

-most USAF peeps take an "End of Course" type checkride, non-punitive. Means the evaluator can change hats back to instructor mode if needed to reteach if you screw up. Near 100% pass rate. Different if you elect to take the FAA ATP or type rating checkride. In that case the FSI evaluator is FAA only and cannot conduct remedial training on the ride. If you hook, it's a pink slip on your permanent FAA record.

-Other way to get the type rating is walk into your friendly neighborhood FSDO with your post-Meridian or post-Beale form 8. FAA will issue a type rating for military equivalency in the BE-300. The type FSI gives you will have a "copilot required" limitation on it unless you take the FSI checkride single pilot. Your choice. The type rating from the FSDO does not.

-There's a coin laundry in Hapeville (one mile from hotel) which will do your laundry for $0.80/lb. Or you can spend all afternoon on your only day off doing it yourself.

Edited May 3, 2011 by 2xAGM114

[contraildash]

I'll add to that a bit:

Before you make your hotel reservation, make sure you call the FSI folks and talk to the MC-12 program folks (Steven Bone was who I talked to). He hooked me up with a corporate rate ($79) at the Hilton Garden Inn. Parking/wifi/printing/copying are free. Because FSI booked my room for me, I also got vouchers for free made-to-order breakfast everyday. Dream it up, they'll make it. They also serve dinner for a decent price, and have some local brews on tap. Hotel laundry costs $2 and they sold detergent at the front desk. Fresh cookies everyday in the lobby...so you can get your fat kid on. It's a quiet/laid back hotel, the staff has been great.

Everything else 2xAGM114 has said is spot on. Although I didn't study before coming here and had no issues. The note cards they give you are legit and make learning memory items and limits easy. Some things are weird, but just play their game and be done with it.

As far as getting your type, there is no reason to get it here. After your deployment, just go to the local FSDO with your Form 8 to get your type. No checkride, just paperwork. If you want your ATP have at it. But if you want your ATP and have a centerline restriction, get it removed before coming here.

EDIT: Check out the Manchester Arms. Don't order off the menu (standard pub fare), ask for the specials. F'n good food.

Edited May 3, 2011 by contraildash