Pave Hawk

[farva]

Anybody know why they call it a Pave hawk? Is the pave short for pavement? For example, the Navy uses Sea hawks...becuase they are on the sea. And the Air Force likes to pave 18,000ft runways? Anybody.

[dmeg130]

Search function works on other sites as well.

From Wikipedia:

PAVE is a U.S. Air Force program name relating to electronic systems. Some state that it is just a codename, rather than an acronym. Others point to the definition of PAVE in some military glossaries as "Precision Avionics Vectoring Equipment" or "Precision Acquisition Vehicle Entry".

Just get a large, Farva...

[Guest Clinstone]

I'm fairly certain that the PAVE acronym is used for any of the Air Force's high tech doo-dad's, ie Pavelow, Pave Penny, Pave Spike, Paveway etc. The Pave designation was added after the USAF converted the H-60 to have all of the gadgets that the then MH-60's utilized. If I'm not mistaken, the original MH-60's were actually called Nighthawks due to the heavy use of night flying and NVG use by Spec Ops.

[338skybolt]

I'm fairly certain that the PAVE acronym is used for any of the Air Force's high tech doo-dad's, ie Pavelow, Pave Penny, Pave Spike, Paveway etc.

Not really. They use Senior, Have, Pave, Pacer, Compass, Quick and others. The navy has a set assigned to them as well.

https://www.designation-systems.net/usmilav/codenames.html

[Guest rotorhead]

There is way too much history to type here tonight. Eeyore, JollyGreen et al can add more, but here is your start:

The original Sikorsky Blackhawk (one word) was a company quick fix for a cool attack helicopter, which was basically an H-3 they put in a vise and squeezed skinny. Very cool, but the military didn't bite. It was loosely a US Hind. Check here: S-67 Blackhawk. So, to be technically correct, the S-67 (Sikorsky model 67) is the one word Blackhawk. The UH-60 (Sikorsky model 70) is the two word Black Hawk. For those who haven't clued in, Army aircraft typically use Indian tribe names (Iroquois, Apache, Black Hawk, Chinook).

The UH-60 is modded for a variety of users. Navy Sea Hawk, Knight Hawk, USCG Jay Hawk, Fire Hawk, etc. USAF has Pave Hawk.

When the Army had the relatively plain Jane UH-60A, the USAF helo bubbas wanted a very tricked out version, called the HH-60D. It was ahead of it's time, with advanced avionics, computers, nav, radar, and display equipment that sent the price tag way, way, up, surpassing front line fighters. The USAF said, "We'll have none of THAT." The couple of USAF birds that were modded test UH-60A were converted to HH-60D test birds, then converted "down" to MH-60G (later HH-60G). The HH-60D was "akin" to the Army's MH-60K, but earlier.

Some USAF tails were MH-60G aircraft when loaded out of Florida (AFSOC) and became HH-60G aircraft when they arrived in Osan. Then there was the whole rescue vs. special ops shenanigans, along with AFSOC vs. ACC, etc. etc.

The urban legend is that PAVE stands for something cool. You'll hear Precision Acquisition Vehicle Entry, Precision AVionics Equipment, Precision Avionics Vectoring Equipment, etc. etc. Depending on who was working the program at Wright Patt, as mentioned above, you might have a PAVE this or PAVE that, or "Senior, Have, Pave, Pacer, Compass, Quick and others" as mentioned above. It is a program not a cool acronym.

The early Pave Hawk had UH-60A parts, with a refueling probe, extra tanks, and a Carousel IV INS and Doppler added. It was later significantly upgraded with ring laser gyro INS, new Doppler, GPS, tons of nav/com gear. It later got other goodies. It was funny hearing tanker guys talking about getting the PACER CRAG mod, when the 60 had cool nav gear a decade earlier.

More to the story, but enough for now.

[Guest Jollygreen]

Rotorhead has it well covered. Only thing I would add is the USAF UH-60A, MH-60A [probed A-model...unofficial designation we used so we would know what we were flying], MH-60G/HH-60G, were never officially called Night Hawks.

The original squadron (55 ARRS/55 SOS) tried to get the name Night Hawk as the official designation, but what wasn't widely know at the time was that there was already another aircraft out there, the F-117, that had the name. So the AF turned the request down and the name PaveHawk remained. However the 55th did/does use the callsign "Hawk".

Eeyore was there before me...he may be able to add more.

[MD]

Rotorhead has it well covered. Only thing I would add is the USAF UH-60A, MH-60A [probed A-model...unofficial designation we used so we would know what we were flying], MH-60G/HH-60G, were never officially called Night Hawks.

Only other helo with an unofficial nickname/designation I remember was the MH-3E Pave PIG helos of the AFRES 71st SOS.

[pbar]

My uncle, a retired Pave Low driver, told me that MAC (now AMC) spent most of the money for the HH-60D on the C-17 and so we ended up with the G model.

Edited October 16, 2008 by pbar

[Guest Curt22]

Rotorhead has it well covered. Only thing I would add is the USAF UH-60A, MH-60A [probed A-model...unofficial designation we used so we would know what we were flying], MH-60G/HH-60G, were never officially called Night Hawks.

The original squadron (55 ARRS/55 SOS) tried to get the name Night Hawk as the official designation, but what wasn't widely know at the time was that there was already another aircraft out there, the F-117, that had the name. So the AF turned the request down and the name PaveHawk remained. However the 55th did/does use the callsign "Hawk".

Eeyore was there before me...he may be able to add more.

For those of you scoring at home...81-23718 was the T-1 test bed...HH-60D and for one fleeting moment the acft was called the "Nighthawk" (they had signs and decals made and everything!) , but as we've learned...there was a reason why this name was shot down...since it was already in use by the black jet boys...but no one knew about it!

Eeyoore was there BEFORE you huh? I heard Eeyore is so old he stood fire guard when they lit the sun!

[Eeyore]

Yes, Rotorhead and JollyGreen are correct in their tales of yore for the H-60 as we went through numerous upgrades. Curt22 is correct reference 718 as well. It took several weeks of work to get 718 ready to fly after years sitting in WRB hangar.

Now as for fireguard detail during lighting of the sun, one day somebody else will be rise to the occasion.

[Guest rotorhead]

Acft 718 was forever more "wired" differently. It had miles of wire that went nowhere (after the "demod"). In the electrical schematics, there were footnotes about "N/A acft 81-23718" etc.

Eeyore was also reportedly the first and proudest USAF Academy cadet, too.

(Yes, Eeyore, I'm ducking even as I type this a 1000 miles away!) Cheers Brother.

[busdriver]

So how many pounds of unused wiring are in these things? Not counting 718 that is.

[Guest Curt22]

So how many pounds of unused wiring are in these things? Not counting 718 that is.

That's something that always bothered me...as we found the need for new and better systems, we never seemed to be willing to remove many of the older systems and created some of our own weight problems over the years.

[busdriver]

I'd throw the damned ADF in the trash if they'd let me. Hell, MX doesn't even bother to keep them functional.

[JarheadBoom]

That's something that always bothered me...as we found the need for new and better systems, we never seemed to be willing to remove many of the older systems and created some of our own weight problems over the years.

That problem's not unique to the AF - older Marine -53E's still have wiring installed for OMEGA nav gear and previous-generation radios that were removed in the mid-'90s, among other things.

A USMC Huey avionics tech once told me they average 50lbs of unused, dead-weight wiring per airframe. Not good... especially when you've see a Huey with all the doors stripped off for weight do a hover check on the boat, then land so the crew can toss their helmet bags out onto the flight deck because they're too heavy to takeoff.

I will say this, though... after having done it in my civ. job a few times, removing unused wiring from an aircraft after an avionics upgrade is a slow, labor-intensive process to do correctly. You can't just grab-pull-cut... you've gotta de-pin cannonplugs, de-clamp, de-bundle, re-bundle, and re-clamp harnesses... it's a pain in the ass. Plus, you invariably get to the end of the most-difficult bit of wiring to remove, and find that someone, at some point in the past, was lazy and spliced/tapped into it rather than running new wire like they should have, and now you get to run that new wire.

[Guest Curt22]

I'd throw the damned ADF in the trash if they'd let me. Hell, MX doesn't even bother to keep them functional.

We have an ADF system? LOL

[stract]

I was told the 60 has up to 200 lbs of unused wiring from all the changing mods. I've also been told that when a bird goes to depot, they re-wire everything and thus get rid of the unused wiring, but I have nothing to back that up with. Just a couple rumors floating around...

wasn't 728 the other test aircraft?

Also, how many birds are still 700s? Kadena is all 701C now (and apparently the new engines have 701D compressor sections but obviously we don't have the upgraded DEC or HMU for that)...has Lakenheath finished the 791C upgrade? KIKR has at least 4 done, I've heard.

[Guest Curt22]

I was told the 60 has up to 200 lbs of unused wiring from all the changing mods. I've also been told that when a bird goes to depot, they re-wire everything and thus get rid of the unused wiring, but I have nothing to back that up with. Just a couple rumors floating around...

wasn't 728 the other test aircraft?

Also, how many birds are still 700s? Kadena is all 701C now (and apparently the new engines have 701D compressor sections but obviously we don't have the upgraded DEC or HMU for that)...has Lakenheath finished the 791C upgrade? KIKR has at least 4 done, I've heard.

I can't imagine there are 200# of unused wiring, since as I mentioned before, we never get RID of any systems so where woud this extra wiring come from?

I recall only one nearly full rewiring at depot (in the late 80's early 90s) and that was to get rid of the old "Kapton" (?) aluminum wiring that was found to be the cause of acft fires on other platforms. they certainly do not get completly rewired at each depot visit as a standard protocal. Also, we've never really "SLEP'd" the HH-60's, but SLEP's typcailly replace massive amounts of wiring.

I can't recall if 728 was the Nighthawk T-2, but sounds familar, for some reason, don't think it was 708.

[Guest rotorhead]

I can't recall if 728 was the Nighthawk T-2, but sounds familar, for some reason, don't think it was 708.

Yes, 728 was SUPPOSED to be the second Night Hawk prototype, but the $$$ were cut before the mod could be done. 728 crashed at Angel Fire, NM.

Here is a site with good info about PAVE and other names:

PAVE is not an acronym

I recall only one nearly full rewiring at depot (in the late 80's early 90s) and that was to get rid of the old "Kapton" (?) aluminum wiring that was found to be the cause of acft fires on other platforms.

Yes, Kapton wiring was to be replaced, due to the very troubled Kapton history. It was not the WIRE that was the problem, it was the insulation....Kapton is a DuPont insulation that became brittle, had poor tolerance to rubbing due to vibration (there's no vibration in a helicopter!) and when it charred, it became a flame conductor. Bad JuJu in an aircraft.

Edited October 20, 2008 by rotorhead

[busdriver]

I've heard similar unused wire claims from crew chiefs, mostly they thought it was due to clipping old problem wires and running new ones without removing the old ones. That and TO changes to the way things like AHHS are wired.

[MD]

I was told the 60 has up to 200 lbs of unused wiring from all the changing mods. I've also been told that when a bird goes to depot, they re-wire everything and thus get rid of the unused wiring, but I have nothing to back that up with. Just a couple rumors floating around...

On a sidenote, it's impressive to see what depot can do. When 90-26228 crashed in Hell's Hole, AZ in 1994, it was pretty well destroyed. Still, it was airlifted out of the canyon it went into, shipped to Corpus, and they rebuilt it from darn near scratch, IIRC. I believe it's still flying the line in Tucson.