Law School

[Guest ski&fly fast]

I'm a casual right now, but thinking about taking my LSAT before JSUPT starts. The test expires in five years, so I am looking for any law school advice as something further down the road in my career. Would it be beneficial to get that out of the way now? Or, wait until later in my flying career to apply to AFIT? How long usually does it take after training to pursue a professional degree?

Any input would be appreciated!

[hd5032]

Of course its possible!

[Guest Sandlapper]

I'm a casual right now, but thinking about taking my LSAT before JSUPT starts. The test expires in five years, so I am looking for any law school advice as something further down the road in my career. Would it be beneficial to get that out of the way now? Or, wait until later in my flying career to apply to AFIT? How long usually does it take after training to pursue a professional degree?

Any input would be appreciated!

I'd say if you were going to a reserve unit, it would make sense. You'll have a 10 year ADSC after pilot training. Assuming you had the time (doubtful) to successfully finish law school & meet all of the obligations that go along with being in an active duty squadron, what would be your goal? Getting hired by a law firm after your commitment is up? Your legal education would be 6-7 years old at that point, with no relative experience in the field. Not trying to discourage any ambition...I've heard of guys at Seymour-Johnson getting MBA's from Duke's night program. It's doable, I suppose...if that's what you really want, just realize you've got a lot of sacrifices ahead of you. BTW...waiting until later in your AF career, you might find that you've now got even more responsibilities & perhaps your priorities will change (wife, kids?)...food for thought.

[Guest IncompletePete]

I'm currently at law school and unless you're a genius, you'll struggle to re-apply the information once you're finished with the AF. The amount of information you need to learn is vast and the constant changes in statute and common law means that by the time you're looking to practice, there's a good chance your education will be out of date in certain areas.

So yea, unless you're looking to practice law soon after you've completed your education, I'd probably advise you to shy away from it.

Edited December 3, 2008 by IncompletePete

[Guest ski&fly fast]

I'd say if you were going to a reserve unit, it would make sense. You'll have a 10 year ADSC after pilot training. Assuming you had the time (doubtful) to successfully finish law school & meet all of the obligations that go along with being in an active duty squadron, what would be your goal? Getting hired by a law firm after your commitment is up? Your legal education would be 6-7 years old at that point, with no relative experience in the field. Not trying to discourage any ambition...I've heard of guys at Seymour-Johnson getting MBA's from Duke's night program. It's doable, I suppose...if that's what you really want, just realize you've got a lot of sacrifices ahead of you. BTW...waiting until later in your AF career, you might find that you've now got even more responsibilities & perhaps your priorities will change (wife, kids?)...food for thought.

Thanks for the info, I suppose after my commitment it wouldn't really make much sense at that point. After my AD career, I have always wanted to get into politics, so a legal background would be helpful, but might make more sense to get a masters in International Affairs or political science (my BA background) due to time constraints --

Although I'm running through the list:

Wife: haha

Kids: ..............

[Ill Destructor]

Thanks for the info, I suppose after my commitment it wouldn't really make much sense at that point. After my AD career, I have always wanted to get into politics, so a legal background would be helpful, but might make more sense to get a masters in International Affairs or political science (my BA background) due to time constraints

And why is law a good route to politics? Yeah, th majority of the guys running the show these days are so-called lawyers, but that doesn't mean that's the way it should be. Today's politicians are career politicians... not lawyers. I'd like it if more politicians were trained economists. Just an idea... If you plan on sticking with the AF for a considerable amount of time, I'd think you'd be better served acquiring an MBA or some other multipurpose degree coupled with extensive networking. Retire from AD and go straight to a executive position with a moderately-sized company.

But politics is a shitshow.

[Tone deaf]

It all depends on what your priorities are. An old friend of mine flew and before his commitment was up, the RIF in the mid-90's was kicking in and he applied for the Air Force Funded Legal Education Program and got accepted. He's the only flyer I've ever heard of that either applied or got accepted. If your goals are to be in the AF and want to gamble that the AF requirements for FLEP will allow (right now it is 2-6 years commissioned service, max), then you can't beat the deal. The Air Force sends you to school, you continue to get paid (nothing like being paid officer salary to be a law student), and then you have a guaranteed job when you finish law school, which could lead to a nice military retirement and subsequent career. I wouldn't bank on the program, but it has been around since the early 90's so I doubt it will disappear anytime soon. If there's another career field with a shorter commitment that interests you, you may want to consider that instead of flying with a 10 year commitment.

Check out this article for details:

FLEP

Good Luck!

[Guest Sandlapper]

And why is law a good route to politics? Yeah, th majority of the guys running the show these days are so-called lawyers, but that doesn't mean that's the way it should be. Today's politicians are career politicians... not lawyers. I'd like it if more politicians were trained economists. Just an idea... If you plan on sticking with the AF for a considerable amount of time, I'd think you'd be better served acquiring an MBA or some other multipurpose degree coupled with extensive networking. Retire from AD and go straight to a executive position with a moderately-sized company.

But politics is a shitshow.

Uhhh...politicians in the Statehouse & Congress are called "law-makers"...I think that might have something to do with why being a lawyer helps.

[magnetfreezer]

Uhhh...politicians in the Statehouse & Congress are called "law-makers"...I think that might have something to do with why being a lawyer helps.

The normal people are those who have to implement/obey the law... maybe if a law is so complex only a lawyer can understand it it shouldn't be passed.

[Guest Fogo]

And why is law a good route to politics? Yeah, th majority of the guys running the show these days are so-called lawyers, but that doesn't mean that's the way it should be. Today's politicians are career politicians... not lawyers. I'd like it if more politicians were trained economists. Just an idea... If you plan on sticking with the AF for a considerable amount of time, I'd think you'd be better served acquiring an MBA or some other multipurpose degree coupled with extensive networking. Retire from AD and go straight to a executive position with a moderately-sized company.

But politics is a shitshow.

"2" to everything.

Did Poli Sci as an undergrad and am currently working on an MBA. Leadership experience + MBA should equal a good job if you get out. At the end of the day; military experience, an MBA, maybe some kind of executive work in the business world... There's no set path to political office; just a few different things that work.

I'm a political junkie, but hope I am never "seeking" an office... Just something that may come along and you could take advantage of.

Done rambling... damn TDY lodging with a room full of beer.

[Guest Sandlapper]

The normal people are those who have to implement/obey the law... maybe if a law is so complex only a lawyer can understand it it shouldn't be passed.

The "wal-martification" approach...just because the yokels (myself included) don't understand the intricacies of every law on the books doesn't mean there's not a place for them. Kind of like your Dash-1...it's not enough to just say "don't break it, dumbass"...instead, we've got an 1100 page document explaining how & why. I, for one, would prefer that the author of THAT book knew what the hell he's talking about. Rough analogy, but you get the idea.

[Guest CAVEMAN]

President Bush did not go to law school.

Now if you are the President of US, I do not think your political ambition can be any higher.

Now, I have always wanted to be the Supreme Allied Commander(SAC). I think that is some cool title!!

[Guest ski&fly fast]

It all depends on what your priorities are. An old friend of mine flew and before his commitment was up, the RIF in the mid-90's was kicking in and he applied for the Air Force Funded Legal Education Program and got accepted. He's the only flyer I've ever heard of that either applied or got accepted. If your goals are to be in the AF and want to gamble that the AF requirements for FLEP will allow (right now it is 2-6 years commissioned service, max), then you can't beat the deal. The Air Force sends you to school, you continue to get paid (nothing like being paid officer salary to be a law student), and then you have a guaranteed job when you finish law school, which could lead to a nice military retirement and subsequent career. I wouldn't bank on the program, but it has been around since the early 90's so I doubt it will disappear anytime soon. If there's another career field with a shorter commitment that interests you, you may want to consider that instead of flying with a 10 year commitment.

Check out this article for details:

FLEP

Good Luck!

Just read the article- that is really interesting. I agree, taking a rated pilot and making them a JAG officer would probably be unlikely. I would never give up my flying career and that is my number one priority. I have always been interested in law and know I won't be in the cockpit forever, so just looking at possibilities farther down the road. I think the best route for this stage in my life would be to start working on my masters, then see what happens. That program would be a really awesome deal though-

Thanks for the info!

[Guest Nova]

Theres always this option:

"Maybe I should be a truck driver. Hey Mav, you have the number of that truck driving school we saw on TV? Truck Masters, I think it was...I might need that"

[Guest TwoDogs]

Ski&Fly

I know about 11 pilots who did that. All of them were pilots first then either they left AD joined the reserves, and flew as Reserve/Guard bums while attending law school full-time. Some even ended up with the airlines. Two of them did that good deal thing the FLEP(sp?) and were paid full-time without a break and attended law school, and stayed on as JAGs. Talk to a JAG and ask them about how they like it, from what I can see, you will earn more in the Air Force as a pilot.

On the other hand, upon retirement these JAGs slide easily into the high grade jobs for state or federal government, so they might have more options post Air Force, plus the JAGs can get opportunities for earning a Masters in Laws (LLM), which is good for dressing up your "I love me wall" or getting a teaching job. The other two were airline pilots who became very senior in their pilot seat so they could move their schedules around, or they became instructors to have a more flexible schedule---heck one guy actually had a full-time legal practice and taught in the sim on weekends. Just search the terms pilot and law firm and you will find a wide variety of attorneys who smashed air and then went on to convince juries that coffee can be too hot, or that their client did not know how 500lbs of cocaine ended up behind false panels of his car AND he only meant to save his wife from throwing herself off the cliff, it just looked like he pushed her.

As far as taking the LSAT, this might be the best time for you to take it. All of my friends have said to only take a prep course if you are really serious about getting into a premiere law school, but I would think why not try and ace it anyway to give yourself more options. Later with family and career, studying for the LSAT on top of everything else in your life will become harder. All of that being said, if you have a pilot commitment that is longer than the viability of your test scores then no sense in taking the test now. Of course, you never know how pilot commitments can work out, sometimes they can let people get out of them.

Also look at potentially doing a tour in Legislative Liaison (LL), but you might be too junior before that opportunity presents itself, it's the AF's lobbyist office I heard that is a good gig for getting an up close look at how policy is made and maybe then try for a masters. Of course take it in something you truly like, but I wouldn't pay $40k for a masters in anything unless it was a truly elite institute and I was going for a PHD in that stuff--save that kind of dough for law school.

So for now, enjoy flight school and your flying career, best of luck to you, hope this helps!

Edited January 2, 2009 by TwoDogs

[Guest IncompletePete]

I'm in the process of tidying up my OTS and UPT application (rolled over from the last OTS rated board) and was curious to find out whether someone who is currently studying at law school would be looked upon well? My primary concern is that in attending law school, my commitment to the AF would possibly be brought in to question as I seek a backup career should the AF not work out.

I'd like to think that it serves to demonstrate my abilities to work well under pressure (I'm doing a one year course to achieve what most students at law school manage in three years ) and deal with monumental workloads, but on a day to day basis as an officer would the skills and knowledge as a lawyer be particularly applicable to the AF?

These may be dumb questions but I'm keen to nail my application!

Cheers

[brickhistory]

Not qualified to comment so sorry for the waste of time/electrons, but I can't help but think that showing that you can successfully work your ass off and improve yourself is a good thing for any board.

Good luck!

[HiFlyer]

I've had several friends who did this very sucessfully. In each case they were pilots or navs who were beyond their intial flying careers (12-17 years in). They found a law school (that would take them) in an area with an AF installation, then found a job available which did not require much (if any) travel....jobs like HQs-level command post controller, support desk staff at a major depot, etc. In each case they had a three year (or more) tour, a fairly predictable work schedule, and bosses and office mates who understood what they were doing and didn't get in the way (helped them out with scheduling if a semester had tricky issues). What made this work was they were near the end of their careers, the school and work did not interfere with each other to any noticeable degree (i.e., they continued to be dedicated and effective officers while on duty!!), and the leadership did not perceive it as dodging their career responsibilities. They also usually worked the night shift, which was less active and gave them time to read or work assignments when things were quiet. It might be a little different if they were 5 year Captains trying to ditch their flying careers for the JAG...neither the JAG nor their current bosses would likely support that approach! Every one that I know of finished the programs, retire, and then went into active legal careers of some sort. Common threads...past 15 years active service, no desire to go beyond twenty, Lt Cols or Majors (Majors either passed over to LtCol or didn't care if they were). I also know one pilot Captain who applied for the JAG thru an AF program, was accepted, resigned his regular commission and became a reserve 2nd Lt while the AF paid for Law School, then graduated and was commissioned as a JAG Captain, with promotion to Major a short time later. But, that was a long time ago and I don't know if the AF still has that program!

[Guest Sparky]

I also know one pilot Captain who applied for the JAG thru an AF program, was accepted, resigned his regular commission and became a reserve 2nd Lt while the AF paid for Law School, then graduated and was commissioned as a JAG Captain, with promotion to Major a short time later. But, that was a long time ago and I don't know if the AF still has that program!

That program is called Funded Legal Education Program (FLEP)...and it is still around, the local JAG offices is the POC and provide any support for the application process.