Laughlin Buffoonery

[M2]

Wow, what an entertaining thread!

I can see the Major's point, but I gotta agree that it would be much more effective it he got out from behind his desk and implemented his "policy change" instead of transmitting it via email. In the words of the great Sheriff Bud Boomer, "There's a time to think, and a time to act; and this, gentlemen, is no time to think!"

But it has always been policy that higher ranking individuals can call you by your first name or whatever they want, but that doesn't give you the right to address them similarly. If you are close buds, and no one's around, then fine; but in general the person of higher rank determines that privilege, not the subordinate.

Hell, I never really liked to be called ‘sir,’ but I damn well expected it from lower ranking individuals who I did not tell otherwise. One day you’ll achieve rank and expect the same, so don’t be a hypocrite now.

And back in the early 80s we did have a customs and courtesy guide. I still have a copy somewhere at the house, it was signed out by Gen Gabriel if I recall correctly and it was pretty clear about how people were expected to act. I think most of it has been rolled up into the PME guide, so most officers don’t see it anymore. Honestly, there should be a similar document for officer accessions, it there isn’t already…

Cheers! M2

[Guest Boom]

One day you’ll achieve rank and expect the same, so don’t be a hypocrite now.

Unless you're Enlisted. There's always a few Lt/Captains that want to address Chiefs by their first name.

[Stiffler]

Unless you're Enlisted. There's always a few Lt/Captains that want to address Chiefs by their first name.

Boom, just curious why about 69% of your posts are either dissing officers (usually junior ones), talking about how NOT to show respect as an enlisted guy, or showing some sort of chip on the shoulder about being enlisted?

Just curious man.

[M2]

Unless you're Enlisted. There's always a few Lt/Captains that want to address Chiefs by their first name.

Well, I was enlisted...

Anyhow, one of my all-time favorite chiefs went by 'Jimbo;' and there was no disrespect involved and I had the utmost respect for the man!

For some reason there always seems to be a biggest Johnson contest going on between lieutenants and chiefs. Both sides are guilty of it, I've had to call out a few chiefs (yes, chiefs can be called out) about what I considered to be a disrespectful attitude towards lieutenants, and I've also had to talk with a few butter bars over their condescending tones. It seems to be one of the most contentious relationships going between officers and enlisted.

And since someone brought up avoiding saluting, I’ve seen both sides guilty of that as well. Back in my two-striper days, anytime we saw an officer blatantly avoiding us just to get out of saluting (it is obvious), we’d chase his ass down and make him salute anyway! I’ve also been the victim of “enlisted spacing,” where troops space themselves out so you have to salute each and every one of them instead of one gaggle salute. I knew what was going on and would always smile about it, but the truth of the matter is that both sides play their little games…

Cheers! M2

[brickhistory]

Boom, just curious why about 69% of your posts are either dissing officers (usually junior ones), talking about how NOT to show respect as an enlisted guy, or showing some sort of chip on the shoulder about being enlisted?

Just curious man.

stiffler, I'll let Boom answer for himself, but I've seen here and in real life some (ok, a lot) of buffoonery/condescension by, usually, junior officers towards enlisted.

My opinion is that by E-5/O-3, most folks have figured it out and just want to get on with the job.

Play by the rules, both written and unwritten (customs), and most things sort themselves out. Sock/reflective belt police and those O-6s who love them excepted...

But unlike M2, I was never enlisted. My parents weren't related prior to marriage and were married well before I was born.

Edited December 15, 2008 by brickhistory

[Stiffler]

Ya i suppose the condescension thing could be there. Guess I just havent noticed. Im one of those "lets just do our job" guys, of course Im in the Guard where no one uses "sir" anyway, so maybe its a different culture.

[DFRESH]

But unlike M2, I was never enlisted. My parents weren't related prior to marriage and were married well before I was born.

LMFAO

[brickhistory]

dfresh, it's a very old line...

stiffler, check on the Guard thing.

I was 13 years AD, then almost 9 Reserve AGR, very different mentality.

Guard is mostly the same, I would think. As most guys are hired or commissioned from the unit, you don't get a lot of folks that won't fit in do you?

There is also the 'will be there a long time' factor vs. the active duty 'gone in 2-3 years' mindset.

Pluses/minuses on both sides.

[BQZip01]

Well, I was enlisted...

Anyhow, one of my all-time favorite chiefs went by 'Jimbo;' and there was no disrespect involved and I had the utmost respect for the man!

For some reason there always seems to be a biggest Johnson contest going on between lieutenants and chiefs. Both sides are guilty of it, I've had to call out a few chiefs (yes, chiefs can be called out) about what I considered to be a disrespectful attitude towards lieutenants, and I've also had to talk with a few butter bars over their condescending tones. It seems to be one of the most contentious relationships going between officers and enlisted.

And since someone brought up avoiding saluting, I’ve seen both sides guilty of that as well. Back in my two-striper days, anytime we saw an officer blatantly avoiding us just to get out of saluting (it is obvious), we’d chase his ass down and make him salute anyway! I’ve also been the victim of “enlisted spacing,” where troops space themselves out so you have to salute each and every one of them instead of one gaggle salute. I knew what was going on and would always smile about it, but the truth of the matter is that both sides play their little games…

Cheers! M2

Then there was the converse of that. I remember being at ASBC at lunch time when the school dismissed everyone from Polifka Hall (a.k.a. the big blue bedroom). 600+ Lts all walking back to their dorms and some poor airman walks out of clothing sales and has to pass all 600.

[Guest joethet]

I think that's the worse part. Take 5 mins, get everyone together and practice, wait for it.......LEADERSHIP! If discipline is lax in a military unit, it comes from the top, the bottom totem pole dudes just don't decide to act that way all at once and on a whim.

2!!!

[Hacker]

And back in the early 80s we did have a customs and courtesy guide. I still have a copy somewhere at the house, it was signed out by Gen Gabriel if I recall correctly and it was pretty clear about how people were expected to act. I think most of it has been rolled up into the PME guide, so most officers don’t see it anymore.

When this thread was first posted, I actually pulled out a copy of the PFE (although it's called something else now, I just can't remember the new name) from my NCOIC's desk, and that information is NOT in there. The only thing even related is a chart showing the appropriate way for subordinates to address superiors.

Edited December 15, 2008 by Hacker

[M2]

Actually, it was AFR 30-1 (4 May 1983) and it was called Air Force Standards. In this small, 40-page document, the Air Force environment, conduct and appearance were aptly spelled out in plain English that was easily understood by even the dumbest of airmen. Basically, it said get your shit straight and keep it there.

There was a second document that I also hung on to titled Leadership (AFP 35-49 dated 1 September 1985). It too contains infinite wisdom in a mere 29 pages, most of which seems to have been lost on today's brass.

These two little booklets provide more insight than sixteen AFIs combined. Maybe the USAF screwed the pooch by getting rid of such outstanding publications, and instead started worrying about what kind of socks people were wearing...

I highly recommend snagging a copy of either or both, if you can. Trust me, you will be amazed at how simple things were back then...and how well it worked!

Cheers! M2

[Guest pown3d]

This discussion reminds me of an "AFI" I saw back in the late 90's -- looked 100% legit, but obviously wasn't -- on Wall to Wall Counseling. Similar to this one:

www.section-viii.com/Stuff/AFI%2036-106%20Wall-to-Wall%20Counseling.pdf

Good stuff.

[Guest Smoke_Jaguar4]

And back in the early 80s we did have a customs and courtesy guide. I still have a copy somewhere at the house, it was signed out by Gen Gabriel if I recall correctly and it was pretty clear about how people were expected to act. I think most of it has been rolled up into the PME guide, so most officers don’t see it anymore. Honestly, there should be a similar document for officer accessions, it there isn’t already…

Cheers! M2

Customs and Courtesies and Forms of Address are now buried in AFI 34-1201, Protocol and AFPAM 34-1202, Guide to Protocol. And the only reason why I know that is because I'm now a Protocol Officer (yes, go ahead and me. thanks). Otherwise it would be a needle lost in the AFI haystack. There is some good stuff in there, like Rank Has its Priviledges (RHIP) and some kooky stuff they still do on Army and Navy installations.

SJ4.

[Danny Noonin]

It's not petty, it's protocol, and it's something that someone can do instead of saying "Sir" or "Ma'am."

Yeah, dude, it is petty. Not because it is incorrect protocol wise, it's because of your REASON for doing it, sts. Read your own post..."IF YOU DON'T WANT TO CALL SOMEONE SIR, call them by their rank...that usually pisses people off..."

Why don't you "want" to call someone sir? I'm sure you've got a really good reason that has nothing to do with your own ego.

I think dudes who do that are juvenile. And it's always obvious when dudes are doing that and why. But if it makes you feel better about yourself to not say sir to someone, go crazy. You can always hide behind "protocol." And then keep wondering why LTs don't show you more respect in return. After all, you've earned it with your highly professional attitude.

[Stiffler]

Yeah, dude, it is petty. Not because it is incorrect protocol wise, it's because of your REASON for doing it, sts. Read your own post..."IF YOU DON'T WANT TO CALL SOMEONE SIR, call them by their rank...that usually pisses people off..."

Why don't you "want" to call someone sir? I'm sure you've got a really good reason that has nothing to do with your own ego.

I think dudes who do that are juvenile. And it's always obvious when dudes are doing that and why. But if it makes you feel better about yourself to not say sir to someone, go crazy. You can always hide behind "protocol." And then keep wondering why LTs don't show you more respect in return. After all, you've earned it with your highly professional attitude.

M*ther F@ck!ng shack T-bone.

My point exactly.

[brickhistory]

Count me in with Boom then.

If/when a superior officer is a complete and utter d1ck, as demonstrated repeatedly, I, too, have adopted the use of calling him/her by rank. UCMJ says I have to respect the rank. Professional competence and custom gets the individual.

"Sir/ma'am" is one I use for someone I respect. I start with that but once it's unearned, f>ck 'em.

I've also done it with enlisted as well - use the full rank, "Technical Sergeant Bag o'" or even, very rarely, "Chief Master Sergeant Schmuck."

Respect is assumed until it's no longer earned. Then it is the rank and not the man.

A commission, or lack thereof, is not a bye for being a jerk.

[Guest Boom]

Count me in with Boom then.

If/when a superior officer is a complete and utter d1ck, as demonstrated repeatedly, I, too, have adopted the use of calling him/her by rank. UCMJ says I have to respect the rank. Professional competence and custom gets the individual.

"Sir/ma'am" is one I use for someone I respect. I start with that but once it's unearned, f>ck 'em.

I've also done it with enlisted as well - use the full rank, "Technical Sergeant Bag o'" or even, very rarely, "Chief Master Sergeant Schmuck."

Respect is assumed until it's no longer earned. Then it is the rank and not the man.

A commission, or lack thereof, is not a bye for being a jerk.

That's the point I was trying to make. If I respect a higher ranking individual as a person, then I have no problem calling them Sir or Ma'am. I am required to respect their rank, and if they're a douche bag, then I'll call them by their rank. Don't be confused and think I'm required to call anyone Sir or Ma'am. Call it juvenile, cool, life goes on.

brickhistory :beer:

[Vertigo]

Now that I am in the guard and off of active duty I actually have a VERY hard time calling my officers by their first name... which is what they want. My OIC pulled me aside one day and asked me if I didn't like him because I always called him either "Captain" or "Sir" and not Mark. I just chuckled and said "No sir... in fact I like you quite a bit and respect you even more. I'm not comfortable calling you Mark because to me that is a show of disrespect. I have no problem with you calling me by my first name. But don't expect me to reciprocate." I then told him that when not at drill and not in uniform, if we're at a social gathering then I'll "work" on calling him Mark.

Guess that's just the two different mentalities- him being guard his whole career and me being active for the vast majority of mine.

To that note I actually like saluting. Call me weird.

[Hammer]

I was in a T-6 squadron at Laughlin up until August and in the 4 short months in phase 2 I've dealt with a couple of similar situations.

I will never forget day one of UPT when a Captain came into the classroom to remind us to quiet down during a break from death by powerpoint and one of my fellow STUDS simply said "Sorry Sir, we thought the meeting next door was finished." He was immediately stood at attention and harshly reminded that he was speaking to an IP and that he needs to stand at attention when addressing superior officers. This all took place in front of the entire class and an A1C that was giving us our Life Support brief on day 1. Awesome.

Throughout the rest of phase 2 there were a couple of similar occurrences simply because after 3 months of being on formal release everyone starts to get a little chummy. Especially some of the new FAIPS and the STUDS since we are so close in age/time since they were in our shoes.

I have a feeling that what this DO saw was someone who was close to Track Select stepping to their jet with a FAIP who has been out of PIT for a short period of time. Big deal, it happens. If this was the case the situation should have been handled at the weekly FAIP Mafia meeting where they could have all been reminded about customs and courtesies over beer.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I think.

[nsplayr]

I will never forget day one of UPT when a Captain came into the classroom to remind us to quiet down during a break from death by powerpoint and one of my fellow STUDS simply said "Sorry Sir, we thought the meeting next door was finished." He was immediately stood at attention and harshly reminded that he was speaking to an IP and that he needs to stand at attention when addressing superior officers. This all took place in front of the entire class and an A1C that was giving us our Life Support brief on day 1. Awesome.

Not to thread-jack too much but I'm just surprised by some of the stories on here about UPT. I completely agree with the sentiment of not getting too close with students if you're an instructor and vice-versa and giving higher ranking officers the proper respect and etc, but I guess it was just a different environment down here at RND, even among the 3 different squadrons I've flown with.

In that kind of situation, I think the stud's response was completely fine and there's not too many instructors down here I know that would disagree. If the student said something like "you bet chief," then sure, stand him up and make sure his sh*t is straight. But saying "sorry sir, we'll quiet down" or something to that effect when an instructor pokes his head in your room and tells you to shut up seems reasonable to me. Instructor-student relationships should not be too friendly and err on the side of professional, but there's no reason it needs to be adversarial either. If it was the squadron commander or another O-5 or above, I'd stand up for sure and address him/her a little more formally. But among CGOs and espicially aircrew (or future aircrew in the case of students), even between instructors and students, I've just always believed the relationship should be one of respectful camaraderie. Instructors who had that kind of attitude (i.e. tact > ego) tended to get a lot more respect than the ones who would chew you out for having your zipper 1 inch too low...

But I suppose on day one it couldn't hurt to start students out on the right track either...

[Hammer]

But I suppose on day one it couldn't hurt to start students out on the right track either...

After that we did have a pretty solid foundation on what was expected as far as customs and courtesies goes minus a couple of SA lapses here and there, but that Cpt. made his mark on our class in a negative way. He definitely had a bad rep with everyone from that point on and it was never forgotten.

[HerkDerka]

I will never forget day one of UPT when a Captain came into the classroom to remind us to quiet down during a break from death by powerpoint and one of my fellow STUDS simply said "Sorry Sir, we thought the meeting next door was finished." He was immediately stood at attention and harshly reminded that he was speaking to an IP and that he needs to stand at attention when addressing superior officers. This all took place in front of the entire class and an A1C that was giving us our Life Support brief on day 1. Awesome.

You where in a formal training program on day one. Suck it up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I think.

Your guess about what happened to spark the email wasn't close.

HD

Edited December 22, 2008 by HerkDerka

[Rocker]

Wow. This thread is a good example of why I don't really feel the need to check this site much anymore. A discussion on ROE at UPT (with reg references)?? Sweet. If you are a UPT student, you are not a real human being for about a year, you have no rights, and should understand that you will be subjected to daily nut-kicking and varying levels of the standard fear, sarcasm and ridicule. You should embrace that. When an IP steps into the room to tell you to be quiet, he's not looking for a f_cking explanation about what you thought was correct. Snap to, say "Yes, sir" and then sit down and keep your yap shut. Maybe take the ops limits sheet that you should have in your pocket out and study it to keep busy. It really is that simple. Yep - it's a small picture environment, get used to it. This is NOT leadership by e-mail - just an advisory to peers about tightening the screws on wayward, soft-handed, entitlement generation p_ssies who think it's OK to blur the line a little. Not at UPT. And if you haven't gone through Air Force pilot training, you probably can't relate to the real issue. That makes me sound like a dick - I'm totally not at all, but fine - but things are this way for a reason. Always have been, and hopefully always will be.

[StainedClass]

I can't believe dudes in UPT have enough spare time to make a few thousand posts complaining about UPT. Why don't you study, work out, spend time with your sig other, go find a sig other if you don't have one, go shoot guns, volunteer, or do something, anything, than endlessly post quibbling queep on a friggin' aviation website?

Leave message boards for when you're a bored O-4/O-5 sitting behind a desk writing OPRs.

Oh, and it's been said here before: You're in UPT. STFU.