Car Makers giving up their biz jets

[DeHavilland]

The biz jet community and the car makers especially are getting beat up pretty good about their use of corporate jets. Maybe if you are getting Gov't money, you shouldn't be using too many jets. However, Congress needs to take a close look at themselves. More than one person in the civilian chain has no problem requesting VIP acft to transport themselves around.

[nsplayr]

The biz jet community and the car makers especially are getting beat up pretty good about their use of corporate jets. Maybe if you are getting Gov't money, you shouldn't be using too many jets. However, Congress needs to take a close look at themselves. More than one person in the civilian chain has no problem requesting VIP acft to transport themselves around.

I think the difference is that these guys are coming to DC hat in hand asking for billions of dollars, and did so in private jets that are expensive to operate and maintain. Government officials that use VIP transportation aren't begging the government for emergency money, they're using money that was already appropriated for air transport.

The second time the auto execs came to DC they drove hybrids form Detroit and it was a whole thing...

[StoleIt]

Congress also approved their own raise. Now the lowest making member of congress makes a lowly 170k or so.

[Guest ATC]

Flying in a Hawker / Citation / Lear / whatever is appropriate for someone at the CEO level. The cost of flying from DTW-DCA in a business jet is a drop in the bucket. They are talking BILLIONS of dollars - small jets cost in the thousands for such a trip.

[Champ Kind]

Flying in a Hawker / Citation / Lear / whatever is appropriate for someone at the CEO level.

Tell that to the people that are losing/have lost their jobs.

[Guest rlb]

The biz jet community and the car makers especially are getting beat up pretty good about their use of corporate jets. Maybe if you are getting Gov't money, you shouldn't be using too many jets. However, Congress needs to take a close look at themselves. More than one person in the civilian chain has no problem requesting VIP acft to transport themselves around.

Corporate jets are often more efficient than airlines. Take a well paid CEO for example. With a private jet he can depart/arrive at an airport closer to where he needs to conduct business. He doesn't have to show up early, make connections or wait around for baggage. What might take 6 to 9 hours traveling by airline will take 3 to 4 hours by private jet. This is a better use of time for a well paid executive. Additionally, He will be more productive on a private jet. Add to that a group of executives travelling together and it's all the more efficient.

look at a company like Wal-mart. They are known for their cost cutting methods yet they have a fleet of aircraft. They probably wouldn't use them if it was wasting money.

Edited December 24, 2008 by rlb

[Bergman]

Tell that to the people that are losing/have lost their jobs.

Oh, you mean those poor, put-upon UAW workers who are being "laid off" in January? The ones who get 95% of their salary for NOT WORKING??!?!

[Goblin]

Its easy to make fun when you don't live here...

[Champ Kind]

Oh, you mean those poor, put-upon UAW workers who are being "laid off" in January? The ones who get 95% of their salary for NOT WORKING??!?!

Ok - I'll admit. I don't know a whole helluva lot about labor unions and the like. However, I do know that a shitload of people are losing their jobs, and they are people who have worked for these companies for a long time, and know nothing else. As such, they may

or may not have higher education, thereby limiting their abilities to smoothly transition to another career with comparable pay/bennies. I am just saying that it sucks that these people were just trying to make an honest living for years and years, while their CEOs were squandering money away with lackluster "innovation" and marketing strategies.

I am a firm believer in Smith's "invisible hand" that is guiding the market along, and I feel like capitalism thrives on survival of the fittest. I don't think that we should be bailing out the Big Three. But, it does suck for the people that have lost/will lose their jobs, and their families.

[JarheadBoom]

Tell that to the people that are losing/have lost their jobs.

99.69% of the general public has no clue how much business is conducted by CEO's and other high-level executives when they are traveling on corporate aircraft. There's a reason they've got multiple satphones and 'Net connections in the cabins... and it ain't so Rick Wagoner and his CEO pals can have phonesex with their wives/girlfriends, or play World of Warcraft at FL510.

I work (at my civ. job) with a guy who was a mechanic for a big-name corporation's flight department. He said on CONUS trips, the Aircell would be dialed in to the company switchboard almost non-stop (one of his many responsibilities was tracking the Aircell's airtime for the beancounters). On international trips, he (and sometimes another mechanic) would go along as a flying crewchief; they also served as cabin attendants in-flight. He said there'd be times that he'd be asked to go sit in the jumpseat with the pilots for an hour or so while they conducted what amounted to a board meeting via Aircell conference call.

It's not all HD movies and endless champagne on a bizjet...

Its easy to make fun when you don't live here...

And it's hard to accept that my grandkids will still be paying this shit off (and my kid's not even born yet...) because, among other reasons, the automakers spread'em for the UAW at contract-negotiation time for all these years.

It's basic business sense to reduce/eliminate costs associated with things that don't produce positive results for a company. I'm no MBA, but I'd say that paying thousands of people (who, BTW, have NOT contributed to any kind of production for the company in years) 95% of their salary & benefits to sit naked in a beanbag chair and eat Cheetos is fucking ridiculous, and a colossal waste of company resources.

Yeah, it sucks to lose your job. I know it firsthand; I was "downsized" at a previous civ. employer, along with a half-dozen other mechanics. However, I have zero sympathy for anyone who was on that "jobs bank" gravy train. ZERO.

[Goblin]

Nobody in my family works in the auto industry currently, but I can guarantee that if the white house had allowed the big 3 to collapse, that you ALL would be feeling it. Without getting into UAW politics (which I dont know anything about, and I'm pretty sure most of you are just going off of media bias, same as the public hears shit about whats going on in the middle east and believe it without second thought), but 1 in 5 jobs nationwide are related to the autos somehow. If any one of them were to collapse, it would be a blow to the other 2, and EVERYTHING relating to the industry would fall apart.

Nobody can keep track of the $700B that the banks had, while their CEOs still fly in their jets as previously mentioned, but the autos asked for a small fraction of that and everything is blowing their tops.

Detroit is unique in that it ONLY has the autos. If they fail, the state fails, the region fails, the country fails. I sure as hell don't want to come home to Detroit worse off than it already is.

My $0.02

[pawnman]

I think the difference is that these guys are coming to DC hat in hand asking for billions of dollars, and did so in private jets that are expensive to operate and maintain. Government officials that use VIP transportation aren't begging the government for emergency money, they're using money that was already appropriated for air transport.

The second time the auto execs came to DC they drove hybrids form Detroit and it was a whole thing...

Asking congress for billions = no jets.

Asking taxpayers for billions = jet whenever you want it.

Tell that to the people that are losing/have lost their jobs.

Tell'em what, that a round-trip ride to DC would buy them about a month of additional employment, if that?

[Murph]

Taking a Hawker 1000 to a congressional hearing about bailout was pretty retarded, but, a CEO at that level MUST have the flexibility of corporate travel despite the extra cost. Having flown these tards around for a while before joining, I noticed corporate travel gives the CEOs a substantial advantage over his air carrier riding competition.

[DigDug]

I noticed corporate travel gives the CEOs a substantial advantage over his air carrier riding competition.

Except for the PR ramifications when CNN and SOME members of congress get ahold of the fact...

[SocialD]

If they get rid of their bizjets, they'll just buy a share at NetJets or some other fractional. The exec's need to travel to conduct business and traveling on the airlines will waste alot fo time and money for the company.

Edited December 25, 2008 by SocialD

[Guest Almost There]

I noticed corporate travel gives the CEOs a substantial advantage over his air carrier riding competition.

Doesn't seem to have done jack for the big three....

If you can justify the cost of a bizjet to your shareholders and they agree... have yo'salf a bizjet. If you come to the American taxpayer (like the banks, too) asking for us to buy your bad debt... we are now your defacto shareholders. If you want to keep your bizjets, you better prove that they are worth it... by not being insolvent a year after we loan you the money.

Much is made of the "work" that CEO's and other BOD members do... and how difficult and challenging it is.

I work with these "captains of industry" daily, and many of them are no smarter or more capable than anyone here.

I fly private jets for a living now, and I have to disagree with some of what I've read here. Maybe one in ten of the people we fly around are working constantly.... That 10% is working hard (the calls, meetings, etc. inflight), but most of our customers are watching movies, reading magazines about golf, or sleeping.

The UAW obviously shares blame in this, but I have a hard time blaming it all on them. People who make decisions about which cars to design, market, and sell (NOT THE UAW) have been asleep at the wheel for well over a decade while foreign cars figured out our domestic market.

You can blame a UAW worker for taking too much pay and benefits for putting a dashboard in a car... you can't blame him for the fact that it's a crappy dashboard.

[Lumbergh]

Nobody in my family works in the auto industry currently, but I can guarantee that if the white house had allowed the big 3 to collapse, that you ALL would be feeling it. Without getting into UAW politics (which I dont know anything about, and I'm pretty sure most of you are just going off of media bias, same as the public hears shit about whats going on in the middle east and believe it without second thought), but 1 in 5 jobs nationwide are related to the autos somehow. If any one of them were to collapse, it would be a blow to the other 2, and EVERYTHING relating to the industry would fall apart.

Nobody can keep track of the $700B that the banks had, while their CEOs still fly in their jets as previously mentioned, but the autos asked for a small fraction of that and everything is blowing their tops.

Detroit is unique in that it ONLY has the autos. If they fail, the state fails, the region fails, the country fails. I sure as hell don't want to come home to Detroit worse off than it already is.

My $0.02

FAIL...

excuse me, i'm going to call a giant, heaping serving of bullshit on this one. you have no idea just like the rest of us what would happen if they failed. and it's not the government's responsibility to prop up a failing company. if you or i, or anyone for that matter, had a company and it failed, no one would bail us out. did you ever stop to think about the profitable companies that are going to be affected by this? the ones who did not build shitty cars and lack foresight into the future? why should a good company suffer and have to compete against a failing one who gets magically rescued with taxpayer dollars? i don't believe capitalism or the free market requires the government to step in when things go a little south, especially when the ineptitude starts at the top with these incompetent CEOs. furthermore, filing for chapter 11 doesn't mean that everyone just packs up their bags and goes home. (no doubt, people will still lose their jobs.) it's a reorganizing of the company while creditors can't collect their payments. so, bringing in someone with competence to take over (and hopefully make the company profitable again) during this time instead of the current jackass CEO would be a brilliant idea. obviously, you're against logic.

also, the government is simply going to borrow most of the money from china or japan, pushing the country further into debt and further devaluing the dollar. but hey, i'm sure we won't "feel" those things either. i'm not against people wanting to invest in the auto companies. i think they should invest with their own money.

now, go choke yourself, not with my taxpayer dollars, but with your taxpayer dollars if you feel that strongly about the big 3 auto companies succeeding, i'm sure they won't mind you buying some of their stock. the markets open monday morning at 8am. feel free to further evaporate your 401k and make another charitable donation. but as a sound-minded individual, i would strongly advise against it.

ps the lions suck!

Edited December 26, 2008 by Lumbergh

[Goblin]

Thats a lot of BS with no real information. All I did was make a comparison to the banks, and how they're a) not keeping track of the money and b) worse off than the Big 3.

Toyota reported a pretty big loss too, must be all those shitty cars too...

...or the market for cars just sucks.

And trust me, I already have stock in Ford and GM...and I lost a lot of my investment, why dont you make fun of me for that too?

[slacker]

Detroit is a losing business model. They lose thousands per car sold. How do you stop that? Quit selling cars. Do not throw good money chasing bad, you'll only go broke. Cut your losses, painful now or more pain later, your choice.

Go to any bank with a business model showing a loss per widget produced and see if you walk out with money. I do not think this is a bailout of the auto industry as much as a UAW bailout. Your company is FAILING take concessions morons! This is another example of unions killing their own industry.

Here's my solution: Make the UAW match money from congress with their pension funds. This way UAW will have a stake in the company and will not be the parasite seeking the last drop of blood before the veins run dry. Their pensions and retirement well-being will be tied to the company making money, I would imagine change would come.

Just because failure is painful- banking or industry- it doesn't mean we should spend our children's future chasing bad management or business models.

Sorry your so close 100LL, that sucks. My bro-in-law is a big hedgefund guy- I heard his horror stories too. Look how much that bailout helped.....

Edit- realized this is fairly incoherrent- too much holiday cheer, my apologies.

Edited December 26, 2008 by slacker

[Lumbergh]

Thats a lot of BS with no real information. All I did was make a comparison to the banks, and how they're a) not keeping track of the money and b) worse off than the Big 3.

Toyota reported a pretty big loss too, must be all those shitty cars too...

...or the market for cars just sucks.

And trust me, I already have stock in Ford and GM...and I lost a lot of my investment, why dont you make fun of me for that too?

was it my description of chapter 11 that was BS or was it that taxpayer dollars shouldn't bailout failed companies? which part? seriously, if you think ford and GM are going to recover, you should take advantage of the sale price right now and buy some more stock and try and make some of your money back. just don't do it with my money. and if they don't recover, the government will have wasted billions of dollars we currently don't have. i just think the american people should have a say before making a bad investment. hell, we don't even know where most of the money went that we loaned to the financial companies!

sorry, that you lost some of your investments. i think most people in this economy have. but it's not the taxpayer's job to prop it back up. that's the real BS! companies should be responsible for their actions. it's not my fault that GM loses $2k every time they make a new car. i'm no financial expert but i wouldn't invest in that!!

and to your last statement about Toyota...how come they're not begging for a bailout? and yes, they are about to take a hit too, but why are they better positioned than Ford and GM? i think that would be what we call a lack of leadership and vision. these idiots thought cheap oil would be around forever. these are the same companies who lobbied against higher fuel efficiency standards for decades. (this is just one example of bad practices) and now that their plan has failed, they want my help. umm, no thank you.

[Goblin]

We might as well argue politics and religion while we're at it..

Difference of opinion I suppose, no use in bickering...

I just hope we can all get out of this recession soon

I don't disagree that the Big 3 did some stupid shit, I admit that! I invested well over 10 years ago, didn't think it would ever get this bad! They need new CEOs (except Ford, whos not even part of the bailout), and a new business model.

My whole point is this: If the auto industry is required to give dollar by dollar detail to where the $17B is going, I think the banks should do the same for their $700B.

And Lumburgh, I'm sure if you owned a business that employed 20% of the country in some fashion, the gov't may help you out too.

Read: https://www.autoobserver.com/2008/12/7-myth...free-press.html

Edited December 26, 2008 by 100LL

[Bergman]

Ok - I'll admit. I don't know a whole helluva lot about labor unions and the like. However, I do know that a shitload of people are losing their jobs, and they are people who have worked for these companies for a long time, and know nothing else. As such, they may or may not have higher education, thereby limiting their abilities to smoothly transition to another career with comparable pay/bennies. I am just saying that it sucks that these people were just trying to make an honest living for years and years, while their CEOs were squandering money away with lackluster "innovation" and marketing strategies.

Having been laid off by an auto industry company a few years ago, I know what it's like - and can sympathize with the workers. Having said that, it is not my job as a taxpayer to bail an auto worker out because he chose to not get an education or a more broad work experience and thus can't find a job when his industry tanks. These union workers have been bending the Big 3 over a barrel for decades and laughing all the way to the bank. Now it is time for them to pay the piper, too. While I agree that poor management is a huge factor for the Big 3's problems (Pontiac Aztek, anyone?) - I think you have to admit that if the union workers were giving a 100% effort and truly turning out a top-notch product, their companies would not be struggling as much right now.

I am a firm believer in Smith's "invisible hand" that is guiding the market along, and I feel like capitalism thrives on survival of the fittest. I don't think that we should be bailing out the Big Three. But, it does suck for the people that have lost/will lose their jobs, and their families.

Agree completely.

[slo_goin]

Last time I checked... Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, etc... have all done very well and have invested BILLIONS in building manufacturing plants in the USA. Screw Detroit and their UAW mafia / failed business model. The future of the auto industry is in Alabama, Texas, Tennessee, Indiana and everywhere else these foreign guys are propping up large scale high-tech manufacturing facilities. Will jobs be lost if we don't bail Detroit out? Sure! But it's only in going to bankruptcy that the Big 3 will have the power to reorganize effectively against the UAW.

[StoleIt]

Last time I checked... Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, etc... have all done very well and have invested BILLIONS in building manufacturing plants in the USA. Screw Detroit and their UAW mafia / failed business model. The future of the auto industry is in Alabama, Texas, Tennessee, Indiana and everywhere else these foreign guys are propping up large scale high-tech manufacturing facilities. Will jobs be lost if we don't bail Detroit out? Sure! But it's only in going to bankruptcy that the Big 3 will have the power to reorganize effectively against the UAW.

But when you purchase an import vehicle, the money goes to that nations GDP. Granted, some of it might come back here in the form of salaries, industry, R&D. But it is still only a fraction.

Also it isn't like the Big 3 are the only ones hurting. Toyota and Honda both posted losses. And they have both been bailed out by their respective governments before.

Source: https://jalopnik.com/5114286/toyota-may-pos...oss-in-70-years

What I think is really unfair is:

That while American cars are allowed to be sold in Japan and some other Asian countries, they are given an Import tax that adds a very large cost to the vehicle. Talk about unfair. I am all for forcing parallel taxes. Japan charges an extra (lets say) 20% to buy an American car...we add a 20% tax to Japanese cars sold here.

Now the public would never go for that, since that would be unfair...so why is it allowed in Japan? Hmm maybe because the Japanese industries like their monopoly. And US sheeple like their imports.

Forcing our domestic automakers out of a large population where they should be allowed to sell cars. I imagine after China gets the hang on producing cars they will do the same thing, but only after expanding into our market, of course.

[slo_goin]

I agree, and I am all for levying tariffs on all goods entering the US. I think that would help our economy in a number of ways!

Btw... This is the first time I've used my iPhone to access this site. I picked it up yesterday and I've got to say - this phone kicks ass!