The Columbus cheating scandal

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by DC:

We're playing for keeps, here.

Not yet you're not.

Originally posted by DC:

I may just be a dumb LT in UPT, but its my Air Force too, and I don't want cheaters in it. Especially in the air with me.

You better think damn hard about that. You will have to quit because you'll be too damn busy ratting out everyone in your squadron for falling below your seemingly pious standards.

There is a giant "it depends" gray area you'll have to learn to deal with. Until you learn to deal with it you are best off doing the right thing yourself and staying quiet about everyone else.

Originally posted by DC:

The only question that remains is what exactly constitutes cheating.

Here's and example of what you will have to filter:

Someone has gouge for a Stan Eval test.

versus

Someone is cheating on their Top Gun scores.

Originally posted by DC:

Also, lying is a breach of integrity no matter how you slice it. After being approached about it and denying it, my sympathy for them completely disappears. I'm glad their classmates ate them alive.

So you are never dishonest about anything?

You might find it a little of lonely in an ops squadron with that attitude.

Originally posted by DC:

I know it might seem silly to review the Core Values all the time, but its not. If there's ever a question about what's going on bring those babies out and more often than not the question will be answered. It doesn't take years of Air Force experience to know that.

Uh, ok. Fine.

I can only hope you don't end up in STAN/EVAL or on the IG team...although those are the two places people with your black and white perspective tend to be attracted.

I am proud to hold the title of "World's worst SEFE."

Originally posted by DC:

o those that don't have a problem cheating go run for Congress or something. I also hear Enron is hiring accountants...

Stay out of the fighter community. If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'.

I never liked liars and I believe in doing the right thing for the right reason, even if it's harder. However, I didn't stuggle with the purity of conscience you seem to have.

I wish you luck.

[DC]

Fair enough. Hey, I gotta start somewhere!

Thanks for the perspective from the other end of the tunnel, though. I imagine I will hardly recognize the young, naive Lt that I am today when I'm looking back at it all.

There is a giant "it depends" gray area you'll have to learn to deal with. Until you learn to deal with it you are best off doing the right thing yourself and staying quiet about everyone else.

I won't turn a blind eye to something I'm not sure is right just because I don't have experience. That's why I'd talk to the person first. Maybe there's an explaination that I don't have the experience to understand. But how am I supposed to get that experience by walking around with blinders on? I'm asking seriously. When do I cross that line where I can stop ignoring things and finally question whether someone is doing something wrong? I wouldn't imagine that I'd be any different a person because I pin on a new rank or aquire one more year of service.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by DC:

I may just be a dumb LT in UPT, but its my Air Force too, and I don't want cheaters in it. Especially in the air with me.

I don't think that there are any fighter squadrons that are located high enough for you to fit in with your Ivory Tower.

You may want to look into a career that does not involve killing people and breaking things for a living with airplanes.

Or, perhaps, you might just want to take your Lieutenant Smalley (remember the guy who sent out the email about not drinking as an AF officer??) look at this topic and reserve judgment for when you actually have wings and are in an operational squadron.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by DC:

When do I cross that line where I can stop ignoring things and finally question whether someone is doing something wrong? I wouldn't imagine that I'd be any different a person because I pin on a new rank or aquire one more year of service.

That's just a gut check that you'll gain with experience. Although you might like th think so, but you do not have the complete picture while sitting there at UPT. You have seen some aspect of the AF up until now, but you have not seen that place where you're going to spend the next 10 years as an officer. Most importantly, you'll be able to see what the social norms of an operational flying unit are and make your decision against that backdrop.

I think you'll find that it will be very clear to you where "the line" is eventually...but the line you're towing currently isn't going to work in the real world.

[Skitzo]

I'll just put it this way, the current philosophy about cheating is zero tolerance, and if you know about it and you don't report it you are just as guilty.

However if that wasn't the current philosophy maybe instead of ratting out people after confronting them half-assed a person might have the guts to tell them that if they don't knock it out their ass is going to get reported. And if that doesn't work they might decide hey, these guys are getting an advantage over me but if I report them who is going to burn besides them? In other words, how are my actions going to be judged by or how will my actions affect others? Are my seemingly noble actions going to affect others?

I'm not advocating cheating or what happened at Columbus, I'm simply saying that if we are going to fight the "one mistake Air Force" philosophy it's gotta start out by doing everything you can to help your bros out before taking it up the chain. That way the nonsense that does get to the commander for his/her decision is worthy of their time and decision.

I don't know if everything possible was done to save these individual from themselves but I know the usual reaction to being accused is for the guilty party to deny it. Maybe if they were bugged more than once their conscience would have kicked in.

Then again that would take people with intestinal fortitude and the ability to think about their actions before making them instead of throwing people to the fire.

I'm not saying cheating is right and I'm not saying those that are guilty of things shouldn't be punished but if people could just realize that virtually anything now-a-days can be a career ending proposition then we might be more apt to take it a little easier on our bros or maybe be a little harder on them ourselves.

Then you can bring it up the chain, with a sickening feeling in your gut, because it should kill you to do it. But being okay in the end because you know deep down you did EVERYTHING possible to help the person.

Then again this post is a little self-righteous and speaking about decisions that I have never had to make.

[ 10. June 2006, 17:14: Message edited by: ktulu34535 ]

[HerkDerka]

Originally posted by DC:

If they ignored me and continued to deliberately cheat, I'd probably turn them in utilizing the chain of command.

In all of your idealistic honor code training did you ever learn about things like taking care of your bros or camraderie? You outlook on cheating is the exact same type of "f*ck-your-buddy, look-out-for-myself" rhetoric that the shoe clerks use to destroy our AF

If you keep that attitude, you won't make it far in any ops squadron. Remember, things change when you leave AETC and go to the real AF.

HD

[ 10. June 2006, 18:31: Message edited by: HerkDerka ]

[Guest OL' Patch]

To this entire thread I say, "It Depends!" You either get that or you don't. This is not a 7th grade Algebra exam gents, you'll be faced with multiple MQFs, OV exams, abosolute useless paper drills, etc. How your squadron handles it will be different, "It Depends!" If you KNOW the important killing things part--you're golden. Knock off of the sanctimonious BS and focus on what is important. Feel free to open one each pie hole and respond.

[Rocker]

At UPT we'd meet up right after an EPQ to discretely put all the questions and correct answers together to give to the other flight since they'd usually have theirs a day after ours. Cheating? Maybe, maybe not, but they certainly didn't complain, and the few times they were in a position to help us out, they did. The strong swimmers make themselves apparent most of the time.

As for me, I'll make every attempt to do things the "right" way, but if that doesn't work, I'll do what I have to do to get the job done, bottom line. And at the crud table, forget about it. I am a cheatin' motherf*cker.

The people (not the whole flight I guess) in question from Columbus sound like a bunch of idiots.

[Rocker]

And oh yeah, I don't know anybody these days who doesn't have the IRC test bank in with their 217 when they go to take the test. Look it up, but don't get it wrong if you can't find it (and don't know it).

Ditto OL' Patch.

[FireMission]

Originally posted by Rocker:

At UPT we'd meet up right after an EPQ to discretely put all the questions and correct answers together to give to the other flight ...

Ah the gouge - there's definitely a distinction between the buddy system and word of mouth gouge versus flat out cheating.

"Cooperate to graduate" - After all, cliches wouldn't be cliches if they didn't hold some water (read: booze).

EDIT: spelling

[ 10. June 2006, 21:47: Message edited by: Airp ]

[Guest talondriver]

Originally posted by GuardDude:

Ya. I got a buddy that was burned by this (one of the guard guys) and so folks like that are the victims. The top of the problem (IP and initial chick student) should be the ones in trouble, not all the others who did what we all would do.

Victims???? I don't think so. They should have known where/how the info was acquired. If not, they can plead ignorance but should still fry for not asking.

"victim" is a word used by SNAPs and lawyers.

[ 10. June 2006, 21:54: Message edited by: talondriver ]

[Flare]

Originally posted by HerkDerka:

Remember, things change when you leave AETC and go to the real AF.

Sigh......people get to leave AETC? What? How?

As for the whole Columbus thing, I'm gonna go with the "he who is without sin cast the first stone." I ain't gonna throw it, and if you're all as honest as some of you are claiming to be, I bet no one else will, either.

For all you "black-and-white-there-is-no-grey" future ENJJPT types, remind me who you are when I'm giving you a checkride......I'll grade you accordingly...and you'll wish you wouldn't have said that!

Me thinks OL'Patch and Rainman are twins. :D

EDIT: spelling

[ 10. June 2006, 22:14: Message edited by: ENJJPT IP ]

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by ENJJPT IP:

Me thinks OL'Patch and Rainman are twins. :D

That's one way to look at it. Others would say we're both victims of the same brainwashing machine.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by DC:

But how am I supposed to get that experience by walking around with blinders on? I'm asking seriously.

Roger that. Here's an attempt at a serious answer.

You get a more SA from listening to the aircraft radios than you get from talking on them. A lot more.

It takes time and experience to learn the skill of building an SA picture in your mind's eye. The debriefs are painful when you're young but they are the tool your IP is using to help you acquire those mind's eye SA building skills.

You will fly better offensive BFM if you look out the big window and only check the HUD when you know you are in a position to take a shot than you will looking through the HUD the whole time. A lot better BFM.

It takes time and experience to transfer Ps diagrams into sight pictures in the jet. Again, painful debriefs.

You will drop better bombs if you learn to recognize corrections for wind while still on base by looking out the big window before you roll in than if you just roll in randomly to put the thing on the thing and let 'er rip.

It takes time and experience and a couple thousand times down the chute before it becomes obvious what corrections are required. You guessed it, painful debriefs.

So, what's my point?

I don't advocate blinders or earplugs. I do, however, advocate a muzzle until you feel like you PID what is a legitimate target, what is a friendly and what is chaff/decoy.

You don't wear the muzzle forever. Remember, time is the best teacher but, unfortunately, it kills all its students.

[JS]

Originally posted by DC:

Maybe I'm missing something here...

But what about what was described above was acceptable? People had the ANSWERS (no kidding A, C, D, A, C, B) to the test? How is that not cheating?

You are missing something - it is called the Master Question File, and they are totally legal in "real" flying squadrons.

Here is something black and white in all of this gray stuff:

Studying and learning from the squadron-issued MQF = Good

Taking answers from the MQF written on a Post-it into a test = Not So Good

[ 11. June 2006, 13:49: Message edited by: JS ]

[Guest Hoser]

Any gouge, whether it be from the MQF, or some words passed in the hallway to a sister flight, are all OK in my book. You still have to remember that bit of info in your cranium. The MQF is just a bank of possible test questions, not the actual test your are going to take.

Getting a copy of "EPQ 7", then writing the 1)A 2)B 3)C on a post it note is a totally different beast.

Apples and Oranges in my opinion.

Hoser

[ 11. June 2006, 16:51: Message edited by: Hoser ]

[Guest talondriver]

Ok. last post...I promise.

The bottom line is someone sang like a canary when put under the lamp and got a lot of people a new start in life.

Obviously, this person didn't do RT at survival school prior to UPT.

[ 11. June 2006, 21:44: Message edited by: talondriver ]

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by talondriver:

The bottom line is someone sang like a canary when put under the lamp and got a lot of people a new start in life.

Obviously, this person didn't do RT at survival school prior to UPT.

Shack.

What a waste.

[BattleRattle]

Thread revival...

Has anyone been in contact with members from this class in the last few years? What was the final conclusion of this incident?

[Hacker]

I see one of the members of this class all the time here at Lakenheath...but I don't ask him about it.

[BattleRattle]

Was he one of the guys that they allowed to continue and get winged?

[Spoo]

Thread revival...

Has anyone been in contact with members from this class in the last few years? What was the final conclusion of this incident?

I read somewhere that the IP avoided trial by resigning his commission and was discharged under "other than honorable conditions". I guess he won't be able to use the AF as a job reference... The students that were kicked out of UPT (11?) all received non-judicial punishment, e.g. forfeitures of pay, Article 15's, etc.

[Toro]

I read somewhere that the IP avoided trial by resigning his commission and was discharged under "other than honorable conditions". I guess he won't be able to use the AF as a job reference... The students that were kicked out of UPT (11?) all received non-judicial punishment, e.g. forfeitures of pay, Article 15's, etc.

That sounds about right.

I am very good friends with the guy who was the class leader of the whole thing. He was a prior WSO who upgraded to instructor as a Lt in the F-15E and whooped ass in the portions of UPT he completed. He was on his way to a DG when the whole thing came down, and is the first to admit that he could have handled the whole situation better. When the hammer was falling, he went back to his bros in the F-15E community to write letters of recommendation to prevent him getting a dishonorable discharge, and it should come as no surprise that we all come forth. In the end he received an honorable discharged and is now working for Boeing making three times as much as he would be in the AF.

Another retarded decision made by the Air Force - a great fighter pilot was lost because some idiot FGO/GO was trying to prove a point.

On the other hand, the wife of the IP in question actually tried to petition this board for help. She started a thread titled something to the effect of "Help the students at Columbus" that said she wanted to start a petition for BOps members to sign which (in her mind) would clear the students (but mostly her husband) of all charges. When I tried to take the discussion off-line to tell her to not disclose details of the incident, she took offense. I don't think she knew I was friends with the class commander (who had provided many details of her husband's "issues") and she threw down the gauntlet with an "I'll contact your commander" speech.

So I found her .mil e-mail (she was a SVS civilian) and basically told her my commanders name and number, as well as my own, and told her that she'd have an ugly road if she wanted to pursue the matter.

Funny....I never heard from her again.

This is a sad sad example of how the Air Force distributes justice with an uncalibrated scale.

[JS]

Thread revival...

Has anyone been in contact with members from this class in the last few years? What was the final conclusion of this incident?

Some of the guys from that class were allowed to graduate and are currently doing fine.

Not sure if that is what you were looking for.

[Techsan]

I heard that one of the girls was getting the test answers from the instructor by way of oral pleasure

Nothing wrong with that!