The Columbus cheating scandal

[Guest Youngnita]

Wow, didn't realize this was SOP. And shameful as it might be for those involved it just reflects badly upon the AF as a whole IMHO. Just from some of the replies here it appears as though the "whistleblowers" are getting slammed here. On the other hand I can possibly, although not completely, see how it can be confusing to students when approached with such a proposition.

Now I have no problem with playing devil's advocate so here we go.

1) There is a difference between cheating and gouge. The fact that there is even a debate or rationalizing of cheating as using gouge is laughable. Having the actual test is obviously cheating, bottom line.

2) In a competitive environment it is unfair to those who follow the rules and go through the struggle to bust their @ss to make it through. Does it really matter if those accused were the top sh*t if they cheated? Says alot about their character.

3) On the other hand say you do get the test materials from an instructor. Then what? Here is an instructor, the insider, and you, the outsider. Do you say something go against the grain, let it go and just bow out gracefully and say "no thanks", or do you use it and give thanks that your instructor is "looking out for you"?

4) Say you do blow the whistle. So are you then blackballed by your fellow peers? How are you viewed in the community?

The sad thing is that yes, this could possibly get even bigger. But the thing that is so abhorrent is that what happened to good officership? It might be secondhand to some but come on now...integrity? What happened to that. As simple as that may sound, it really is that simple. We as people can have a way of distorting the facts, or convoluting a matter to the point that the basic princples are lost in translation.

Unfortunately doing the right thing isn't necessarily the easiest or personally beneficial thing to do.

[Guest deweygcc]

Nice post gearpig.

I must ask Whats the point of EPQs if some STUDS at some bases are getting "given" the tests complete with answers?

Personally Im not a huge fan of the gouge that basically hands you the missions in a nice little bag.

Theres a bunch of different gouge. I use the stuff that was some studs idea to make something easier. Maybe its a new way to hit a control point etc. But its NOT GOUGE if a monkey could use it and pass the test etc. ITS CHEATING, its a lousy way to get wings.

MQFs? whats wrong with them? I learn MORE about eps with that, and a 400+ question MQF must be studied before attempting a 20 question test.

Blaming an IP for "studs attempting to PLEASE" is wrong. If you bust for your lack of study you deserve it. I cant believe one of you would blame the IP.

FRIGGIN STUDY HARDER if you cant get a good grade. I dont want your cheating A$$ providing me CAP, because if YOU dont have that gouge to know when the enemy fighters are showing up, we all f#$@$#inG DIE.

[TheInner]

This post is starting to get out of hand, seriously folks, everyone understands that gouge is out there and hopefully everyone understands the proper way to use it. IMHO gouge is there to help out in a time of need, NOT to be the sole source of one's education and from what I've read from previous posts that seems to be everyone's opinion, BUT the case of the scandal (if you can even call it that) here at CBM goes above and beyond guys and gals having the gouge and unless you are privy to details on the situation you aren't going to realize the true extent of what happened. Flylady, great post and deweygcc, you have something against FAIPs or something, just remember most of us didn't ask to be condemned to AETC, I personally am just trying to survive until I get a shot at the "real" air force.

[Beaver]

You non-ers are missing the f-ing point. UPT isn't college; I wasn't there to get magna-cum-bullshit and a job at IBM. The point of EPQ's isn't to rack and stack guys. The point is to ensure that the students KNOW the material on the test. Because their life depends on it, not their career. That's why active duty squadron's have MQF's. So guys know the answers to the IMPORTANT questions. That's also why they aren't essay tests. Because usually there is only 1 right answer.

So if students get together to make sure they know the answers to questions that their lives depend on, good for them.

And guess what, Dewey, if I was going to the merge with a Mig-29 and forgot the Alamo's max range, I'd ask my bro. It's called teamwork, douche.

[Hacker]

What this all seems to come down to in my book is this:

1.) Everyone with USAF wings has used gouge or had a bro help them pass an academic exam in one way or another -- that is part of the pilot culture, just precisely as Beaver posted above.

2.) Nobody in a leadership position is willing, once the spotlight of publicity is shined on that practice, to stand up publicly and say, "yep, that's how we do things." They have to get suddenly self-righteous, hide behind "integrity first", and point fingers at those who have _obvious_ integrity issues because they've cheated! Burn the witch!!

This is the exact thing that happened to me in my OSI investigation in 1999 at SJ, folks. The specifics of my case and the CBM one are slightly different, of course, but the core two issues I noted above are the same.

I had an ADC lawyer that told the representative from the ACC IG at the time (an O-6), "if you charge my client with cheating, then I'm going to demand that you level those charges against virtually every other pilot and WSO on this base!"

So, my question is this: Is academic gouge -- and the razor-thin line between that and outright cheating -- going to be the AF's next witch hunt? Hoooooo-boy, if it is.

[Guest KoolKat]

The tests are designed to ensure students maintain "the highest level of proficiency in knowledge and application of emergency procedures," base officials said.

"These are things the students have to know on the flight line because in an emergency, there's nobody there to help them or to ask," said one Air Force official.

Is it just me, or is this not a factual depiction of what these tests are anyway. Some of the questions deal with EPs, but there is a great deal of queep on them...

And, I think, it is the queepy stuff that started all these problems. If it were straight up designed to ensure students maintain the highest level of proficiency in knowledge and application of emergency procedures, would anyone need to cheat to get a good grade?

[JS]

EPQ's are obviously really general knowledge tests covering EP's, systems, instruments, formation, etc. There is nothing emergency-proceduresque about a buttload of questions on how to time a holding pattern and how far out a localizer can be received.

[Vetter]

Response #6 from the MAFIA here...

Cheating is memorizing only the letter answers to the questions in sequential order. Using gouge is looking at the question and being able to pick out the answer if the test is given in a different order. We had the "gouge" (ie, every test question to every EPQ in order) during Phase 2 and 3, but usually there were 3 or 4 wrong answers in the gouge. Each Sunday night, we'd go through and look up every answer to the questions we had in front of us. The IPs knew we did this and even expected it, but to make sure we weren't just memorizing the questions and answers, they would make us point out where some of the answers were in the regs.

When the facts come out about this incident at CBM, I suspect that a hell of a lot more was going on than just people "cheating".

[Vetter]

And if gouge becomes off limits, there are going to be a bunch of Sr Officer types in AETC that get grounded because they can't pass tests...

[HerkDerka]

Shack one Beaver.

I absolutely couldn't have said it better.

Rant Switch - ON

To those who are posting on this topic and acting like they are a Mr. Integrity: If you're not a pilot or a student, STFU. If you are a pilot, I say eat a bowl of dick. You know you gouged. And if you never did gouge, it's probably because your classmates thought you were an individual and hated your guts.

Gouge is part of our culture and always has been. The real test is in the plane folks. The tests are just window dressing so the leadership can send some numbers out to the generals.

If the test were just enough, then why did I have to discuss TOLD with my evaluator when I was at FTU? It's because ground training is BS. You cannot even try to get a working knowledge of Herk TOLD in a two day, four hour class. It just doesn't work that way. That class is to put some numbers on paper. PERIOD.

Furthermore, after UPT you are required to have an up to date MQF as part of your pubs. This goes to show you that all pilots and those who will be know that you should use gouge, but you have to learn stuff on your own.

Gouge is one of the most effective teamwork-teaching tools I have ever seen. Alot better than the "leadership" techniques you read about every Friday in the base paper.

Ground pounders live in a black and white world. The aircrew live in the grey. Because that's how you fly combat. Bending, Breaking, and even Smashing the rules to bits.

Remember,

No combat ready unit ever passed inspection and no inspection ready unit ever passed combat.

It all comes down to this: I don't care if someone is gouging or not because a real pilot can pick out the information that he truely needs to know. I know I do.

Rant Switch - OFF

HD

[Guest deweygcc]

Originally posted by Beaver:

You non-ers are missing the f-ing point. UPT isn't college; I wasn't there to get magna-cum-bullshit and a job at IBM. The point of EPQ's isn't to rack and stack guys. The point is to ensure that the students KNOW the material on the test. Because their life depends on it, not their career. That's why active duty squadron's have MQF's. So guys know the answers to the IMPORTANT questions. That's also why they aren't essay tests. Because usually there is only 1 right answer.

So if students get together to make sure they know the answers to questions that their lives depend on, good for them.

And guess what, Dewey, if I was going to the merge with a Mig-29 and forgot the Alamo's max range, I'd ask my bro. It's called teamwork, douche.

here let me help the $@#$#@HEAD. IF you FRIGGIN cheated through UPT, IM not talking about helping a bro out. Im talking about stealing the answers cheating off others. I dont want you covering MY ASS, if the shoe fits slap it on.

Giving a bro a hint during a standup, or even during a ride, if its possible is FINE. Leeching of the WORK of the TEAM is wrong and shouldnt be tolerated regardless if someone "feels pressured" to do so. Its the guys with the answers written on the insides of their fingers, written on the floor near their desk etc that need to be booted.

If you have a problem with that, I dont understand. If you feel comfortable flying with a guy that has no clue, except someone handed him his wings, you fly with him.

Everyone has that guy they met that you all wonder "how did he pass?"

Theres always one or two guys that you would NEVER fly with that manage to eek by. Its not the guy that busted his ass that bothers me, its the guy that looked over someones shoulder, the guy that couldnt do a THING unless someone told him what was gonna happen first, so he could practice it 1000 million times. Of course he cant do a darn thing ad lib.

[Guest KoolKat]

My FAIPs are two of, not only two of the coolest mothers on the planet, but people that thought me a damn lot about flying, and ain't noone gonna shit on them, or you should take a HAMMER to the face!

THIS IS IN NO WAY TO CONNECTED TO FAIPS.

I thought I made a good post. I'd like to have more feed back on it.

The tests are designed to ensure students maintain "the highest level of proficiency in knowledge and application of emergency procedures," base officials said.

"These are things the students have to know on the flight line because in an emergency, there's nobody there to help them or to ask," said one Air Force official.

Is it just me, or is this not a factual depiction of what these tests are anyway. Some of the questions deal with EPs, but there is a great deal of queep on them...

And, I think, it is the queepy stuff that started all these problems. If it were straight up designed to ensure students maintain the highest level of proficiency in knowledge and application of emergency procedures, would anyone need to cheat to get a good grade?

[ViperStud]

Beaver, HD: I could not have said it better.

In the end we hopefully hear the full story and realize there was a lot more then having EPQ questions ahead of time that led to all this trouble. One point has been brought up that I think needs to be stressed a little more. EPQ's are 99% NOT about handling emergencies. They often ask completely queep questions, and the answer is often some obscure -1, 3-3 or chap. 8 number that has little to do with actual flying skills. Answering EPQ questions amounts to little more than study a "Nice to Know Numbers" handout (i.e. "gouge").

Big picture: Gouge/EPQ/N2KN do not help you become a smooth pilot, nail an ILS or grease a landing. They do not help you understand HOTAS, fly formation or bfm, find the perfect wire for your LADB deliveries, get a good snapshot or get to the merge behind that Fulcrum. The academic tests ARE a formailty. True evaluations happen in the cockpit. Non-rated don't even comment in this thread. I know that sounds like us rated guys being @$$es but it's not, you simply don't know what the training and the community are like. To the rest of you, who fail to see the big picture, get off your damn high horse. To quote a former IP of mine who got sh!t on by a toolbag CC for hosting a safe and well organized assignment night celebration..."We'll take this Air Force back one party at a time."

[Guest deweygcc]

Originally posted by KoolKat:

My FAIPs are two of, not only two of the coolest mothers on the planet, but people that thought me a damn lot about flying, and ain't noone gonna shit on them, or you should take a HAMMER to the face!

THIS IS IN NO WAY TO CONNECTED TO FAIPS.

Do you even READ? My Gawd, dude friggin read the post. I dont think its fair that they get faiped, everyone of those guys deserves their #1 choice, its just that the CC would rather them stay there. From what I hear it was a Faip that did it but I may be WRONG. Hence my comment

[Guest deweygcc]

Look, get your IPs from the ops squadrons instead of jamming other unwanted tours down their throats.

Give the guys that busted their butts the jets they wanted.

Yeah #1 gets his pick, but lots of times they FAIP the guy that is either to good to let go ( which is unfair to him) or they didnt have his #1 choice. FIND IT!!

[TacAirCoug]

Trust me, there are a ton of operational guys who would love a tour in a white jet and a break from spending 6 months+ per year in the desert. Put some of those FAIPs in operational assignments and give the workhorses a break!

[Guest TheBobGoat]

sorry bout that koolkat. i just hit the little quote button.

dewey, if the guy is too good to let go, he may be number 2 in the class. all i was saying, the number 1 dude will have his choice and if they dont have his first choice avail (example..no KC10 to travis in the drop) then they will try to get his second and third choice and so on. but if he doesnt want that FAIP spot, he prob wont get hosed

[Beaver]

Deweygcc -

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul!

[Vetter]

Chuck, you're wrong. If a guy doesn't have the maturity, SA, or skills enough to be a freakin co-pilot, the last place you want him is teaching others those same basics in AETC.

I got FAIPed...sure. But who else can say they led a 4-ship full of 05s and above as a 2LT. Also, it was pretty cool telling a certain Ops group commander he owed everyone in the flight a beer because his cell phone went off in this lowly 2LTs brief. That said...I'd give my right testicle to be at IFF right now.

[Ram]

Wow, all of the sudden, this is the FAIP thread. I don't think we asked for that...

I have no problem doing the job the AF has asked me to do. I'm in a jet every day. I could not ask for more. Thousands of people would literally kill for a chance to fly the '38 the way I do...the way I usually take for granted.

When Uncle Sam wants me to go kill Iraqis or North Koreans (or whoever...don't flame), I'll go do that. And gladly. I guess I'll miss-out on being an LT in a fighter squadron, but whatever, dude...my alcohol tolerance will be much higher by the time I get there just from the dependency I'll have on Weed to get me through 3 more years of AETC.

I have no opinion about the usefullness of FAIPs, even though I could only hope to be as helpful as the FAIPs who taught me here at ENJJPT. I'm but a young pup, and the silver polish on my wings hasn't even dried yet. You'll get no complaints/gripes from me...just the best flying and instruction I can offer.

As far as the gouge, I'll say this: There is a fine line between the appropriate and the inappropriate. Understanding where that line sits is just another part of being a military pilot. I don't think we have enough intel to make a "right/wrong" call on this debacle, but the discussion we've engaged in has doubtlessly left many prospective UPT-ers (and current studs) with a lot to think about. This is a good thing.

We're getting so emotional in here. Everybody please take a deep breath, or go rub one out. Whatever makes you relax just a little. I think I'm off to do both -- my freaking gf is in Dallas right now

See ya

[Guest Pilot135]

Two more quotes that live on...Cooperate to graduate", and "If you're not cheating, you're not trying". There are of course limits to these ideas...

[Guest kcuf0408]

one word.....****! ok 2.... YOU! Man, I can't beleive what I am hearing, don't cheat, wholy shit any herc drivers in here not pass the Academic tests @ FTU with either gouge A, B, or C tests??? HercDriver24 hit it on the head, the classes are bullshit anyway. The only time they weren't was phase 1 before tweets when you didn't know dick. Dude 2 things are happenin here, 1. WE got ourselves another General comin soon & 2. 19 more dudes are about to live on wellfare! in my book....that sounds like STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURES!!! I feel their pain but infortunately the Faip and Lt Mafia can't help you now....

SORRY! YOU'RE FIRED!

[Toro]

This thread is going to be locked for a couple reasons.

Mainly, it has gotten seriously sidetracked and none of the comments relating to the original subject have come any new conclusions in the past 20-30 posts.

In addition, as has been alluded to by this and other posts, there are people throwing in their two cents who know nothing about the subject at hand. I am good friends with somebody who is directly involved with this and I have most of the story direct from the source. It seems that there are a couple people posting who have details on what happened, and their posts are fairly cryptic and non-informative...as they should be. Others are making assumptions based on a situation where they don't know the whole story.

I think the original discussion on 'gouge' and the UPT atmosphere that permits it was a great one, but it has stagnated and taken a nose dive.

If you want to talk about FAIPs, feel free to start another thread.

If you want to talk about who is in the wrong with this situation, wait until the investigation is complete and all the findings are brought forth, then start casting stones.

[Guest ledbyexample]

If you would like to help out the Studs at CBM who are getting removed from pilot training for using EPQ gouge you can send letters to their ADCs at:

Troubleatcolumbus@hotmail.com

The ADCs are looking for letters describing UPT culture including attitudes regarding gouge, EPQs and any similar situations. If you have any first hand experience you think might help these fellow officers with their case please chime in. Letters should be addressed to "All Reviewing Authorities". Hopefully with your help we can make a difference.

[Toro]

This should actually say, "If you would like to help out the studs at CBM who are getting removed from pilot training for cheating on EPQs." Not to dredge up the whole 'Gouge' thread again, but this issue isn't about gouge. It's about flat-out cheating on EPQs and involves other issues "unbecoming" of officers.

Back to the subject at hand...don't take this the wrong way, and I'm not trying to be overly cynical, but I don't think this is going to do you a whole lot of good. If you are directly involved with this case then you know that there is more involved than simply cheating. The people directly involved know that and the discipling authorities will, if they don't already, know that.

This is a good concept in theory - let the world know that the atmosphere of cheating is widespread throughout UPT and to some extent these guys are being penalized for something that has generally been overlooked in the past.

But what would you expect to happen from this?

Judge:What have you got there?

ADC:Sir, this is sworn testimony from rated pilots, all of whom swore that cheating occurred throughout their pilot training as well.

Judge:Wow. Well, if everybody else was doing it, then I guess it's okay. We've obviously jumped to quickly to our conclusion here, lets reinstate these students.

Not quite. Probably something more like this.

Judge:Wow. This shows a disturbing trend that needs to be dealt with. We're going to ensure it doesn't continue and we're going to start right now by making an example of these 11 officers.

Apply this rationale to what has happened at the Academy in recent years. What if the cadets had tried to use the "Well, everybody's doing it and it's been going on for a long time" defense to charges of sexual assault and drug use. No, I'm not saying cheating is anywhere as bad as those two charges, but it's the same irrational defense and it's not going to work.

Next question - why are responses being gathered to a hotmail account vice a representative with a .mil account? And what's an ADC and why aren't they soliciting these responses directly?

As I now step off the soapbox, I'll add that I will send a message...while it may get the UPT leadership to open their eyes, it's not going to save the 11 students who have been removed from the program. If the intent of this collaboration of UPT accounts was to change the atmosphere at UPT, then this might work. But the intent is to save these guys who are in trouble. Too little, too late.