Flight Evaluation Board (FEB)

[HeloDude]

It appears that the FTU/convening authority think your flying skills are sub-par and don't wish to pass you on to the next/3rd airframe which could also potentially be a challenge for you.  

I have been a reviewing/voting member (whatever that role is specifically called) on an FEB and IMO it's a pretty fair process.  The board members, covening authority, and the MAJCOM CC will take this process very seriously and most likley give you the benefit of the doubt, not to mention they are also very aware of the pilot manning situation. If your record shows that you should be reinstated/keep your wings, then that is what will happen.

Good luck and make sure you are taking care of yourself outside of the FEB process by going to the gym, eating well, getting adequate sleep, keeping positive relationships, etc.

[kaputt]

50 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

I have been a reviewing/voting member (whatever that role is specifically called) on an FEB and IMO it's a pretty fair process.  The board members, covening authority, and the MAJCOM CC will take this process very seriously and most likley give you the benefit of the doubt, not to mention they are also very aware of the pilot manning situation. If your record shows that you should be reinstated/keep your wings, then that is what will happen.

I think whether its fair or not really depends on who ends up being in that approval chain. All it takes to change things is the opinion of one, especially if they happen to be at the MAJCOM level. Since my FEB I have spoken with multiple others who went through a FEB as well, and even those that ultimately got a favorable result had shenanigans go on during the whole process. Examples range from taking months over the AFI prescribed timeline for completing the FEB, but lambasting the respondent earlier in the process for submitting a waiver request one day late; to, one vocal person in the chain disputing the findings of IPs and CCs that have flown with the individual and either ultimately causing reversal of the FEB findings, or coming really close.

Not to mention how the process works would be a lot like a trial by jury finding you innocent, and then one judge just reading some paper summary of the case and changing the verdict to guilty. But I guess that's kind of how justice works in the military regardless.

In any case though, the best way to avoid this is to not go to an FEB in the first place. Which is something I still put on myself as far responsibility goes. But I still think its fair to say the process could use some tweaking. 

Edited December 6, 2018 by kaputt
Can't type

[viper154]

1 hour ago, herkbier said:

I’m not an 11R.. but I can’t imagine the multitasking in a E-3/8 or RC is that difficult for the front end.. I’m gonna guess U-28 since he’s looking to move to a crewed aircraft. 

I would guess CV-22, that thing doesn't fly like anything else.  I'm about to head to the U-28 schoolhouse my self, everything I have been told by U-28 guys is that the plane is  very easy to fly stick and rudder wise, its meant to be flown by doctor/lawyer types, the hard part is the mission/tactical side. Original poster said it was the initial check ride that caused the FEB, so from my understanding he would have been hooking the initial qual phase that doesn't incorporate any of the tactical U-28 things. 

Someone please correct me if any of that is wrong, my U-28 knowledge comes from a 3 hour fam ride and bs ing with the 28 guys getting some info on the schoolhouse. 

[HeloDude]

20 minutes ago, kaputt said:

I think whether its fair or not really depends on who ends up being in that approval chain. All it takes to change things is the opinion of one, especially if they happen to be at the MAJCOM level.

For what's it's worth, I personally know of an enlisted flyer whose FEB recommended keep his wings, the NAF CC non-concurred, and the MAJCOM CC concurred with the board and retained the member's wings.  

Again, the FEB is his chance to make his argument and defend his record...which is very fair.  None of us have an inherent right to fly for the Air Force, and if we give our leaders legitimate cause to question whether we should be in this business, then there is a process to make this decision.  The MAJCOM CC knows how bad the AF is hurting for pilots and if he believes the Air Force can benefit from giving someone another chance/keep them flying, then that is what he will do.  But let's face it, on the rare occasion, we have all met that guy who we scratch our head and wonder how they made it through UPT/graduated X course, passed their checkrides, etc. Well, the FEB is the formal process to decide whether that person should continue or find a different job.  And as for the U-28 (if this indeed in the aircraft in this situation), I'm not aware of the community having a high washout rate during initial qual (but perhaps I'm wrong?).  So if the min standards are successfully achieved by 98% of their students, this unfortunately doesn't say much about the rare exception. Just food for thought.

[ThreeHoler]

If everyone is following 11-402 there are only a few situations where they can take your wings:

“4.5.3. An FEB, or any subsequent authority in the FEB review process, may recommend the respondent be prohibited from wearing the aviation badge. This recommendation is appropriate only when: (a) An individual is disqualified for discrediting the badge through misconduct or willful violation of flying regulations or procedures, (b) fear of flying, © cowardice or refusal to fly in combat, or (d) when the aircrew member fails to become a productive member of the aircrew force through factors over which he or she has control to include attempts to resign from training, attempts to impose limits on rated/CEA service, and/or failure within rated/CEA specialty clearly due to lack of effort or motivation. If an FEB recommendation is to prohibit wearing the aviation badge, separation action according to AFI 36-3206, AFI 36-3208, or AFI 36-2209 as applicable should be considered with respect to the needs of the Air Force.”


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[HarleyQuinn]

2 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Good luck and make sure you are taking care of yourself outside of the FEB process by going to the gym, eating well, getting adequate sleep, keeping positive relationships, etc.

This and good luck. 

[ThreeHoler]

I’ve been on the FEB for someone. It is heartbreaking to be the judge of an aviator at their FEB when they care and have been trying but just don’t have the aptitude. I can tell you the four of us (3 voting, 1 non-voting) took the job seriously and it weighed heavy on the 3 voting members.

But like the others have said, the true purpose of the FEB is to evaluate your ability to continue in aviation service to the USAF. And, yes, we do wind up with people who have been ACs in one community fail out of training in another. It sucks for everyone involved.


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[HarleyQuinn]

20 minutes ago, Sua Sponte said:

I didn't go to jail, get a punitive discharge, had no legal fees, and kept all of my VA benefits. A prior Lt Col/C-17 guy I know paid $20K+ for a civilian attorney facing similar charges I was and got a dismissal (Officer equivalent of a Dishonorable Discharge), losing his career at 19 years and losing all of his VA benefits.

One of us walked away in better shape than the other and the one in worst shape still owed $20K+ in attorney fees.

YMMV

 

????? 🤔

Edited December 6, 2018 by HarleyQuinn

[di1630]

?????

What type of thing gets you FEB’d and booted at 19yrs?


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[Runr6730]

3 hours ago, di1630 said:

What type of thing gets you FEB’d and booted at 19yrs?


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Probably drew a sky penis

[JeremiahWeed]

3 hours ago, di1630 said:

What type of thing gets you FEB’d and booted at 19yrs?

Maybe whatever occurred immediately after he said “Watch this”? 😁

[Hacker]

8 hours ago, Sua Sponte said:

I didn't go to jail, get a punitive discharge, had no legal fees, and kept all of my VA benefits. A prior Lt Col/C-17 guy I know paid $20K+ for a civilian attorney facing similar charges I was and got a dismissal (Officer equivalent of a Dishonorable Discharge), losing his career at 19 years and losing all of his VA benefits.

One of us walked away in better shape than the other and the one in worst shape still owed $20K+ in attorney fees.

YMMV

My mileage does, hence my recommendation.

I don't claim that I'm some oracle of the FEB process, or an attorney, but I do have a bit more insight into the process than your average pilot.  In addition to some other factors, I was also the FEB manager at an AETC Group and managed the cases of more than a dozen different FEBs and a few BOIs (discharge boards).  The differences in outcomes of those cases for respondents with civilian counsel vs those with ADCs was statistically significant. 

Its great that it worked out for you, but your result more than likely had more to do with the circumstances of your case than the skill of your ADC.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Hacker

[Hacker]

5 hours ago, di1630 said:

What type of thing gets you FEB’d and booted at 19yrs?

A very good question, because an innocent "oops" won't do it.

Remember that the FEB process and the Board of Inquiry process (the "discharge board" that is responsible to decide to kick someone out) are two completely separate processes, with separate board members, and most importantly with very different criteria on which to evaluate the evidence in any particular case.

But the big deal is that the two are not automatically linked, e.g. getting sent to an FEB does not automatically trigger a BOI, nor do the Convening Authorities in most FEBs I've seen also initiate a BOI without other additional circumstances in an officer's history that, combined with whatever the FEB was about, lead to questions about the officer's fitness for continued service.

There are plenty of potential circumstances (in fact, probably the vast majority of them) where someone would be found unfit to continue aviation service by an FEB, but that whatever conduct led to that finding was not sufficient (or directly relevant) to not continuing service as an officer.

Just as a couple examples I know of:

- The case of an AETC IP who, on a cross country, did the ol' "flyby of your relatives house" act. That person was FEB'd and lost their wings, but was not sent to a discharge board, and went on to a Reserve job as a non-flyer.

- The case of an ACC pilot who intentionally violated some flight rules by showboating in one of Uncle Sam's aircraft at low altitude while in a deployed location, was FEB'd and lost his wings, and went on to become an active duty intel officer without going to a BOI, either.

 

[Hacker]

11 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

If everyone is following 11-402 there are only a few situations where they can take your wings:

“4.5.3. An FEB, or any subsequent authority in the FEB review process, may recommend the respondent be prohibited from wearing the aviation badge. This recommendation is appropriate only when: (a) An individual is disqualified for discrediting the badge through misconduct or willful violation of flying regulations or procedures, (b) fear of flying, © cowardice or refusal to fly in combat, or (d) when the aircrew member fails to become a productive member of the aircrew force through factors over which he or she has control to include attempts to resign from training, attempts to impose limits on rated/CEA service, and/or failure within rated/CEA specialty clearly due to lack of effort or motivation. If an FEB recommendation is to prohibit wearing the aviation badge, separation action according to AFI 36-3206, AFI 36-3208, or AFI 36-2209 as applicable should be considered with respect to the needs of the Air Force.”

Realize that "taking someone's wings" and not continuing with aviation service are two totally separate outcomes.

One has to do with what you wear on your uniform and what your AFSC reads in the system (and that's the one you're quoting).

The other has to do with your ability to continue to fly as a crew member.

Plenty of folks have been grounded by FEBs, but not had their wings taken.

[ThreeHoler]

Yup. But for some reason there is this fear of losing wings when the real concern is will you be grounded or not. I think you and I are in agreement.


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[Sua Sponte]

9 hours ago, di1630 said:

What type of thing gets you FEB’d and booted at 19yrs?


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Court martial. It was more of an example of civilian defense counsel isn’t always “better” than military assigned counsel.

[the g-man]

I was talking about the C-17 not landing like an airplane.  I dunno what Defnotapilot is talking about.  

You get used to it. I probably couldn’t land a regular airplane now though


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[Fuzz]

On 12/5/2018 at 4:26 PM, matmacwc said:

I’ve heard it’s ass backwards.

That's one way to put it, it's more like a controlled impact, but she can stop on a dime.

[Sting89]

11 hours ago, Fuzz said:

That's one way to put it, it's more like a controlled impact, but she can stop on a dime.

No kidding. Just ask these guys..

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tampabay.com/news/military/macdill/air-force-blames-pilot-fatigue-for-c-17-landing-4-miles-from-macdill/1272014%3ftemplate=amp

[stract]

23 hours ago, Fuzz said:

That's one way to put it, it's more like a controlled impact, but she can stop on a dime.

At least, within 3500 ft... Too soon?

[Rodriguez1]

On 8/15/2016 at 3:07 AM, ViperStud said:

The only waiver I've ever seen is to waive the board itself. When one washes out of our FTU because they just can't hack single-seat fighters, leadership often offers them a waiver to the FEB. The terms of the waiver are generally acceptance of an ACC crew aircraft, basically anything but single seat fighters. Not sure how the B-15 fits into the mix. The WG/CC is the waiver authority.

Sometimes the waiver is not offered.  A dude washed out of my FTU class and was not offered a waiver because he washed out for reasons that the leadership deemed "safety of flight" problems.  They went after his wings.  His own words - it was the shittiest experience of his life.  He won and got a B-1.  That's my only data point for a waiver not being offered.  If problems are due to SA and safety of flight, the waiver may not be offered.

 

 

Hi, 

What was his safety of flight if you don’t mind me asking? 

[ViperStud]

4-year thread revival!  This was over 15 years ago and I was a student so I didn’t have total insight into what happened, so there is that. From what I recall it basically came down to risk management, decision making and SA. His next-to-last flight, he ended up beak-to-beak at Gila Bend doing an SFO the wrong direction. His last flight he landed super-fast and passed the preceding aircraft on the runway. Dude, just go around. He also spent basically all of A-A phase in CAP due to something in TR we never knew about. 
 

I’ve seen more dudes wash out for basics - formation and landings so bad they’re dangerous in later stages of the course. It’s ultimately due to poor cross-check and misprioritization. Now that I’m on the dealing end of those decisions, I will say it sucks. Nothing about this job is as much of a downer as telling someone they’re done and the dream is over, even when you know you’re doing it for the right reasons. 

[wannabepilot341]

What happens to a guard/reserve pilot who does not survive an FEB? Must they serve out their 10 year commitment in another role? IRR? Wondering If anyone has heard of that happening

[Vito]

 We had a C-130 pilot who had issues transitioning to the C-17. Turns out he was a weak sister in 130’s and his unit dumped him on us to cull the herd. He was pretty bad. I flew his “elimination” sim and he screwed up often. The Sq CC basically told him to take a non-flying job at the ALCE or face a FEB board. He took the ALCE job and finished his career there.

[RASH]

 We had a C-130 pilot who had issues transitioning to the C-17. Turns out he was a weak sister in 130’s and his unit dumped him on us to cull the herd. He was pretty bad. I flew his “elimination” sim and he screwed up often. The Sq CC basically told him to take a non-flying job at the ALCE or face a FEB board. He took the ALCE job and finished his career there.

Mid-late 90s transitioning from Pope?


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