FAIP Q&A

[Chuck17]

In the recent past, the AF in its infinite wisdom has decided to stop giving 'follow-on' assignments to FAIPs as they have in the past. (For example, 37 FAIP with a Fighter follow-on or a TONE FAIP with a Strat. follow-on). For the T-1 FAIPs at XL, I have heard that recent FAIP follow-on drops have included an E3, E8 and a 135 to the Forks (Bergman you might know this guy), as well as a couple of C17s and a C5. Recent fighter type drops from XL have included numerous 16s and a Mudhen. Just wondering how the FAIP mafia is fairing as far as the other bases go...

[C17Driver]

There are no guarunteed follow-ons... I think they stopped doing that at the end of FY 01 or 02. This included T-1s and T-38s. I have buddies that are in both tracks, neither one of them know where they are going in three years.

[ 12 February 2004, 21:23: Message edited by: C17Driver ]

[Bergman]

IMHO the "no follow-on" policy has got to be the #1 reason to NOT be a FAIP. You get to work like a dog, in competition with all of your friends and peers, for an entire year at pilot training. Then, once you've graduated, you find out you get 3 more years of that competition. Of course, everyone wants to get their top pick after their FAIP tour, so they work their asses off for "the man" during that 3 years, then end up getting screwed (potentially) with a crappy assignment anyway. Hell, you could get your last choice of assignment without busting your ass for 3 years. (seems to me that UPT IPs work WAAYY harder (STS) and longer days than your average line-squadron aviator).

[BFM this]

Question: Aside from the fact that this development now opens the door to $#!++Y assignments for FAIPs, has anyone heard of FAIPs actually drawing these undesirable slots?

Yes, it kind of sucks that the possibility exists and leaves the light at the other end of a FAIP tunnel at least shrouded. But a lot of the choice assignments are choice because they need the best quality--the top grads, the sharpest people. The best are still going to be those FAIPs, not against their peers when they graduate neccessarily, but measured against the new grads that will go out into the assignment pool at the same time as that FAIP finishing their tour.

This is the line of reasoning given to new UPT studs. Is this flawed reasoning and/or smoke/sunshine?

[C17Driver]

Actually, the statement that FAIPs compete against other studs that graduate at the time they are up for a follow-on is not true. A FAIP is in a different category because of their experience. And yes, I do know of FAIPs getting the not so desired job. I know at least two that both got E-3s after being FAIPed and both wanted either C-130s or KC-10s. Both of those FAIPs did extremely well during their tour (moving all the way up to check flight, getting recognized as CGO of the quarter, etc)

[ 13 February 2004, 17:55: Message edited by: C17Driver ]

[Skitzo]

How long is PIT

Where is it conducted besides Randolph?

Would a T-6 primary driver ever get a T-37 FAIP?

Would it be a good time to start a family during a FAIP tour or are you likely to go remote immediately following your qualification in your MWS?

[BFM this]

Dunno,

Only at KRND

Yep, happened in one of the last classes here. Assignment read something like: "you've excelled at two of the most advanced cockpits in the AF inventory, now you will move on to one of the most advanced...nevermind"

The rest, I dunno

[Bergman]

You can look up the length of any AF formal school in AFI 36-2223. I would have looked it up, but my IP was blocked (probably a .mil only link).

If you're a T-6 student, you would almost certainly be a T-6 FAIP. Reason being that by the time you finish UPT, PIT, then survival, the base you are at will have finished its conversion to T-6s. Other than going to Moody, if you FAIP you now stay at the base where you went to UPT.

It's a matter of opinion, but a FAIP tour probably would be a good time to start a family. 3 years with no OCONUS TDY! And when you are TDY it's only 2-3 days at a time.

[Flare]

PIT is also conducted here at Sheppard... Randolph produces PIT guys for all other UPT bases, but we have our own in house PIT.... if you go to PIT here, you'll be an instructor here.

The saying for the length (sts) is it's 2.5 months crammed into 4 months... a pretty relaxed time, or at least that's what I've heard.

The other guys have answered your other questions already.

[Toro]

Originally posted by Bergman:

IMHO the "no follow-on" policy has got to be the #1 reason to NOT be a FAIP....<snip>... You get to work like a dog, in competition with all of your friends and peers, for an entire year at pilot training. Hell, you could get your last choice of assignment without busting your ass for 3 years.

Welcome to the Air Force - you're going to be competing against guys in your squadron for the rest of your career. Do you think that when you get to your first Ops Squadron you can relax and do nothing? Try that and I guarantee that you'll end up with an ALO or AETC IP tour next.

(seems to me that UPT IPs work WAAYY harder (STS) and longer days than your average line-squadron aviator).

YGBSM! You've obviously never been in an operational squadron.

Originally posted by flyingjunky:

This is the line of reasoning given to new UPT studs. Is this flawed reasoning and/or smoke/sunshine?

Smoke/sunshine. I've seen FAIPs coming up on their follow on assignments who couldn't fly their way out of a paper bag. Three extra years in a trainer doesn't mean $hit if you're retarded to begin with. A FAIP who went through IFF with me hooked 3 rides and barely made it through FTU. But like Bergman said, you don't compete against UPT stud - you compete against other FAIPs.

[ 14 February 2004, 18:18: Message edited by: Toro ]

[Hacker]

Originally posted by Bergman:

seems to me that UPT IPs work WAAYY harder (STS) and longer days than your average line-squadron aviator.

Not sure what kind of Ops squadrons you've been in, but that is nowhere near the experience I've had in the fighter community.

[Guest Hoser]

"2's in from the East"

I, like Toro, have done the FAIP tour and am in an Ops squadron currently, and I agree 100% that I work longer now than I did as a FAIP. I worked many 12 hours days as a FAIP, because that is what I chose to do. I could have just as easily went home and played Playstation 2 when I didn't have anything going on, but my goal was to get as much flying time as possible during those 3 years and I was shooting for at least 1,000 hours. Might not seem like a lot to the heavy guys but we did it (STS) 1.0 - 1.1 hours at a time. I wasn't going to get that sitting on my ass playing games. I did accomplish it by hanging around the squadron, jumping in the empty seats for an FCF (thanks Toro) and volunteering to go pick up a jet that broke during the recent XC and is now fixed. Volunteering to go XC with a flight not your own becuase they need extra IP's. Flying at least 2 times, sometimes 3, every work day. Again, I did these things because I wanted to. There was a FAIP with us that was barely considered experienced in the T-38 when he PCS'd becuase he chose the "2/1Lts work MAYBE a couple of hours a week if they're not flying" route. Maybe good for him, but not even close to exceptable for me.

Bergman posted 15 February 2004 00:57

My impression is that fighter types spend a lot of time in the vault, briefing, debriefing, and so forth in order to keep current on the threats, intel, etc....the constant studying and rivalry would get old quick

I don't really think studying threats becomes boring, since it is in my best interest to know the capabilities / limitations of the weapon systems that are going to be shooting at my pink back side. Getting shot down isn't on my 'Things to do' list. I will take repititious studying of threats so I know them cold any day. Don't know what you are a nav on, but I am guessing the likely hood of you getting shot at is low, hence your stance on studying of threats. If I guessed wrong, let me know.

As for the rivalry, I think that is just one ingredient that makes a fighter pilot who he is, not settling for second best. We all know that second place is the first loser, and there is no place for that in combat, and no one wants to be 'that guy' that screwed the pooch, didn't bring his A-game, and caused someone in his squadron / flight to get hurt.

Just because you fly fighters, doesn't mean you are a fighter pilot. There is a lot more to it than just strapping the jet on and taking off.

"Splash one Mig-29, Green North"

Hoser

[ 15 February 2004, 11:01: Message edited by: Hoser ]

[Guest whairdhugo?]

Ok, moron posting...

What does the FA in FAIP, and STS stand for?

Why do I get the feeling that no one wants to be a FAIP?

[Guest Hoser]

First Assignment Instructor Pilot

So To Speak

As with anything else, it is all about what is important to you. A tour in AETC, whether it be as a FAIP or after a MWS tour has it's benifits. The work days are shorter for fighter guys (but apparently longer for heavy drivers, see the 'FAIP follow on?' thread under General Discussion for that on-going discussion). You don't deploy, and your TDY's consist of 1, maybe 2 weekend cross countries with each class of students you get. Great time to catch up with you family if you were deploying a lot in a previous assignment. There is nothing classified about the trainer jets, so no vault and classified studying, minimal planning for sorties. You can also get approx 1,000 hours in a 3 year tour, if you put in a little extra effort.

Just depends on what is important to you at that particular time.

Hoser

[ 16 February 2004, 10:34: Message edited by: Hoser ]

[Guest deweygcc]

I want to clarify this FAIP thing. First there are too many of you stars in the eyes studs that think anyone saying NO to a FAIP is EVIL. THere are what like 5 operational guys that post? All the rest of you are on the way, in or going back to UPT.

I DO NOT think a FAIP is LESS qualified. I think its AETC's way of screwing the guy that is GOOD ENOUGH to teach... yet not good enough to be a operational guy? Comeon thats a crock and you all know it. Hes TEACHING friggin dudes that are going to op sqd. You know why AETC loves a FAIP? Because they can stick 2 people at once. Get a IP billet filled all the while jamming that poor 0-3 up the ass with an ALO or predator assignment.

Are FAIPs good? is it cool to be a FAIP? Yes and YES. However you get to lead a flight of 0-5s etc, yet you get to be the 0-3 with a bunch of 0-1s that you taught when its time to go to your ops squadron... oh dont forget You GET to be an ALO or a UAV driver in a few years TOO.

Who wins in the FAIP thing?

1. AETC wins wins wins

2. the Studs the FAIP is teaching

Who loses?

1. The FAIP who is good enough to teach but somehow not able to go to his/her choice.

2. The poor bastard in the desert that GETS to go back as an ALO because he couldnt get a white jet, or gray if you fly Tones.

This little part is a ? to Beaver... so Beav whos looking out for YOU? I think AETC should give the guy his choice. I think the FAIP is getting mistreated Its NOT a KNOCK on him, its a knock on AETC. I was trying to figure out why my post was incoherent, then I realized your comprehension problem. I HONESTLY hope this clears things up. Don't get offended, PLEASE.

[ 28. January 2005, 08:24: Message edited by: deweygcc ]

[Guest TheBobGoat]

14 dudes in the class, everyone racked and stacked, bottom 7 are out, 7 to choose FAIP from. all are good enough to get an operational jet (all graduating upt)

sometimes guy wants FAIP, sometime he doesnt. like JS said..needs of the AF first..then in rank order after that as much as possible. top guy is pretty safe. need some good guys to FAIP though because its a tough job -

go find one of your buff guys that FAIP'd and see what he has to say about it.

[Guest mrharvester]

When you finish a FAIP tour and you have a fighter/bomber follow-on, do you upgrade to a 2-ship flight or A/C faster than a dude with new wings? What effect does being a FAIP have on your career in the long term?

[Murph]

I don't think studs lose out with FAIPs. The quality of instruction in my flight was outstanding. And having been a previous flight instructor I'd like to think I have an eye for that sort of thing. I was extremely impressed with the caliber of individuals who were FAIPs.

[Toro]

Speaking as a former FAIP, I think a dude who finishes first or second in his class and gets FAIPed against his wishes loses out. Guys who finish top in their class have the most potential to go on to bigger and better things. When I got to my first Ops Squadron, I saw my former students getting upgraded to flight lead and instructor while I was a wingman. Guys who went through pilot training with me were leaving for weapons school. While being a FAIP and subsequently going to Weapons School or Test Pilot School is not impossible, it's tough to do with the how fast you need to upgrade. Most guys don't upgrade to instructor on their first tour, and it's not likely you'll get picked up for WIC as a major (which you'll be close to as a FAIP finishing his first Ops tour).

Originally posted by MrHarvester:

When you finish a FAIP tour and you have a fighter/bomber follow-on, do you upgrade to a 2-ship flight or A/C faster than a dude with new wings? What effect does being a FAIP have on your career in the long term?

You can upgrade faster in the F-15C and E. The regs say that FAIPs can start 2-ship flight lead upgrade with 200 hours vice the 300 hours required for everybody else. Any subsequent upgrades depend on your performance.

As far as your career, it hinders your potential to go to Weapons School like I talked about. Most flying squadron commanders and above are patch wearers, so it could affect your career if you want to be a leader.

Originally posted by Mike Murph:

I don't think studs lose out with FAIPs. The quality of instruction in my flight was outstanding.

Good deal. I would argue that FAIPs can potentially be a little better than Ops guys. All they've ever flown is trainers - they tend to know the regs and procedures better because they don't have any negative transfer from previous aircraft

[HookEmAll]

As a current FAIP, I can say I was pissed for months about my job, as are many of the others I know. Of everyone I know though, not one of us would let hating our jobs affect our performance. It's not the student's fault I hate my job, and the military isn't about liking what you do. You do your best because it's your job to perform to the best of your abilities at all times.

Can it be a screw job? Sure. Most Faips are minimum top half, most likely top third. As an IP, I've been pissed at the way I've seen some students picked to FAIP. When assignment time comes in three years, whatever you get WILL AT THE VERY BEST, be the same thing you could have gotten three years ago. (Unless something new like the 767 pops out).

Can it be a totally excellent experience? Sure. A married guy can spend time at home. I on the other hand am so jealous of my friends in the desert and other parts of the world. As a heavy guy, it is a great career move regardless of whether you want career air force or to get out. Tons of IP hours now means little copilot time later. It does, however, force you (somewhat) into two consecutive operational tours, which might burn you out.

In the end, it doesn't matter what you want... you can be pissed, but it's needs of the Air Force, as little solace as that is, and you gotta do your job.

I could write a book on this though. Just my 4 cents worth.

[Vetter]

I was one of the guys who finished 2nd in my class and got FAIPed. I am still pissed and here's why. Our class was not the best of classes and we ended up washing back a few dudes who got behind the timeline for one reason or another (not weather). What didn't get washed back with those dudes were the FAIP slots. So, we get to assignment night and have 4 active duty assignments and 2 FAIP slots to fill. Hmmm, I knew I wasn't first and I knew I wasn't last, so what was I going to get? Plus, the week before I went in and had a 30 minute conversation with my flight commander how I wanted to go to TPS. I have the grades from college and the engineering degree...he just looked at me and nodded, knowing that I already had my FAIP assignment. He didn't even try to change it. Who knows how many fighters are going to be left in 3 years for the FAIPs. With the budget drawdowns and UAVs, I can see the "FAIP Other" drop coming our way full of heavies. Sure, being disgruntled isn't a reason to not do my job...but it is a reason to get out when the 10 year point comes around. As it has been said, "I love the f^cking Air Force, and the Ar Force loves f^cking me!"

[Vetter]

Let's change the direction of this tread...let's hear some good things about getting FAIPed.

1. Tons of IP hours

2. Not deployable (for you married f^ckers)

3. Umm

[Guest Tweety]

Does anyone know if there is any level of preference given to Instructor Pilots as far as choosing which base you will be assigned after being FAIPed? Just curious.

[Flare]

Originally posted by Vetter:

Let's change the direction of this tread...let's hear some good things about getting FAIPed.

2. Not deployable

Ha! Used to be....however, we just had a Tweet FAIP pin on Capt while he was deployed for 4 months over in the desert. Had something to do with safety.....so even the FAIPs aren't safe anymore.....

[Baseops.Net]

ENJJPT IP,

That isn't new either. During Southern Watch, 1998, I ran into a long-lost buddy of mine over in Saudi - he was a FAIP at Columbus (Toro might remember him...) TDY to the desert for non-flying duties (PSAB, Tent City, no less!) for approx. 90 days...