FAIP Q&A

[Hacker]

I don't understand why some people have this weird itch to be FAIPs. I still can't fathom why someone would desire to become a USAF pilot, yet want to put off getting qualified in an MWS and going to do the real J-O-B.

There are a couple decent things about being a FAIP -- the problem is that none of them are any better than the benefit of just going to a real MWS and being a MR pilot.

Family life? Yup, it's nice to be at a non-deploying 730-1630 job in the CONUS. Someone all ready said it earlier -- remember that there's a career beyond your first assignment, and you may very well want that cushy AETC job in 3-4 years when your kids are older. Your back-to-back ops assignments, or worse, your ops-to-remote-to-staff, or any other combination that leaves an AETC tour out of the picture may not be as good as it sounds now.

A bunch of flight hours early in your career? Whoop de doo. FAIPs that come through IFF and FTU are exactly the same as any other student. They don't get treated any differently and, for the most part, they don't perform any differently either. I think they upgraded to flight lead just as fast as anyone else did in my ops unit (translation: nobody in a fighter unit gives a crap about the 1 hour you had in a T-6 1,000 times over with a student). I hear that in the heavies you'll get a faster upgrade to AC, though -- and you'll still be years behind the guys who were in your UPT class.

I was in a non-rated job for the first 3-4 years I was in the AF. Although I learned a lot there and I feel it not only helped me in UPT but also my development as an officer, I would never recommend that someone that wants to become a pilot go do a tour as a non-rated guy first.

I feel the same way about FAIPing. If it happens to you, then fine...make the best of it and you may be able to turn that flight/instructional experience into some benefits later in your MR career. But why would you voluntarily stiff-arm getting to the meat of the reason you wanted to become a military pilot??

[Toro]

I was a T-38 FAIP at Columbus - ditto to most of what Tweet FAIP said on the pros and cons.

Originally posted by LT4Life:

and yet another instructor told me if you FAIP then after that you will have at least 2 back to back MWS tours.

Not necessarily. If you take a FAIP tour, then there is little to no chance of you going back to another UPT tour since you've already fulfilled your ALFA tour -- but that doesn't mean you'll stay in your jet. Of three FAIPs who were with me and are now on their post Ops assignment, one is in the FTU, one is doing non-flying work at Nellis, and one got a remote.

Originally posted by *:

Do you all think that being a FAIP helps when you actually make it to your MWS?

I do in the sense that there were no Strike Eagles in my UPT drop and I received it as my first choice from my FAIP tour. I think it helped in IFF because I could fly a T-38 pretty well after three years and I got a lot of CT BFM. I think it helped a little in the FTU with respect to airmanship, but that was pretty much evened out once we got out of the contact phase.

Originally posted by sky_king :

How many hours does a FAIP end up with when it's all said and done for both T-6 and T-1 FAIPs? I'm interested how FAIPs do with their number one choices after FAIPing as well.

I know you're not asking for T-38s, but I got over 1000 (figure the sortie duration is about the same as a tweet).

[163 FS]

Originally posted by sky_king:

How many hours does a FAIP end up with when it's all said and done for both T-6 and T-1 FAIPs? I'm interested how FAIPs do with their number one choices after FAIPing as well.

ASD is a little less in the T-38 vs the T-6, so in the T-6 I'd say the avg is about 1400 +/- 300 depending on what jobs you get and how much you are willing to go X-C. There are several dudes who leave their T-37/T-6 FAIP tours with 1800+ hours b/c they went X-C all the time.

Not sure about the T-1.

[Guest Hoser]

Originally posted by *:

Do you all think that being a FAIP helps when you actually make it to your MWS?

No. I know dudes that are in the 15E community that were FAIPS and some of them didn't do so well. One of them (T-38) never upgraded to Flight Lead by the end of his first ops tour, and now he's flying Predators. Another guy (T-38)that was in my B-course went back to teach T-38's after his first Ops tour. A dude (T-37) from my last squadron has about 1.5yrs left and it's already been decided that he will not upgrade to flight lead. Another (T-38) volunteered for the FTU following thier first ops tour and got a Predator assignment, only to 7 day out, and the FTU is way short on IP's right meow (I've been averaging 4 flights per week for some time meow).

Being a FAIP does not put you on the fast track when you get to your MWS. Like Toro already said, I did feel that the amount of airmanship I had allowed me to focus earlier on the tactical/employment aspect while some of the younger wingman were just hanging onto the stabs, but it all evens out fairly quickly.

Hoser

[Vetter]

Hoser, any examples of FAIPs doing well in their repective RTU? All I ever hear around the sqaudron is the dumb shit us FAIPs do...I never hear of anything we do good in our follow on assignments.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by Vetter:

Hoser, any examples of FAIPs doing well in their repective RTU?

Sorry, not Hoser, but I've seen plenty of FAIPs come through Blue jets. I know of plenty examples of FAIPs that have gone through the pipeline in the last 5 years that have done well.

The point of this thread is not that FAIPs are doomed to mediocrity, but that FAIPs aren't really any different than any other pipeline produced pilot. They're just on a slightly different timeline for the first 10 years of their flying career.

IMHO, part of the problem that Hoser mentioned about guys going to crappy assignments after their first ops tour has nothing to do with them being FAIPs. That's indicative of the really strange state of the fighter force currently. Reference the earlier discussions about fighter guys being unable to get TX courses from non-operational tours. It's because of BRAC, and USAF downsizing, and the rise in prominence of the UAV sect, and a half dozen other factors that are tearing apart the "traditional" fighter career of the last 10 years.

[Guest jad1900]

I was looking at houses for sale at work one day, since my wife and I are considering buying a house when we get to Columbus.

Someone asked me if that was what I was doing, and when I said "Yes" another guy in the room looked up from his paperwork, didn't miss a beat, and said, "You're buying a house? You're going to get FAIPed."

The guy who said it was a Tweet FAIP himself. So I pose the question: Does buying a house (and being married) really equate to raising your hand for FAIP duty, whether you like it or not?

By the way, I'm not for or against a FAIP assignment. No bias here, just asking.

[Hacker]

The reality is that your Phase III Flight Commander is going to have the largest impact on you getting selected to be a FAIP.

Buying a house in and of itself has no bearing on if you will be FAIPed. Your Flight/CC might, however, use that as one of his datapoints to decide who will get a FAIP assignment. Personally, I think that's a totally dumb datapoint to use, but it's up to each Flight/CC.

[Toro]

Lame argument - if you want to buy a house but don't want to get FAIPed (I personally wouldn't recommend that), then just don't tell your IP or flight commanders that you own a house. If they specifically ask (which I don't see why they would), then go ahead and tell them.

I can see how buying a house could be construed as wanting to stay, but if you make it clear on your dream sheet and by talking to your IP that FAIPing is not you first choice, it shouldn't matter.

[BADFNZ]

Do all FAIPs start at Randolph? If so, how long are they there?

[HuggyU2]

Yes. After you graduate, you'll go TDY to PIT. It lasts just about 4 months,... maybe a tad less. I don't think FAIP's will proficiency advance much, although many of the MWS types might.

[Guest pencilpusher]

VFR800...the answer is yes you can be FAIPed if you are #1 but only if you want it. By regulation (I can't remember which one right now, it's been a while since I was an AETC Flt/CC) the top 10% of the class get their #1 choice if it's available, even from another base. Of course with only 12-16 per class in T-1s and 5-8 per class in T-38s, usually means that only #1 is guaranteed not to FAIP. In fact #2 if often a good candidate if there's a non-vol. There are other factors as well, they typically don't want to FAIP anyone over the rank of 2Lt, but I have seen a 1Lt FAIPed.

I would argue that a T-1 FAIP is as good, probably not better, as heading out to be a CoPilot from SUPT. The advantages are murky for a MAF FAIP depending on career aspirations...high PIC time, never slinging gear, respect from the leadership for your demonstrated maturity...and so on. On the other hand, the Copilot gets a very good opportunity to figure out the MWS, the mission, go see/participate in what we actually do, travel to awesome/and not awesome locals, and determine what type leader he or she wants/doesn't want to be watching more senior ACs.

For a fighter/bomber guys FAIP is probably a bad thing. The goal of every fighter type is usually 2/4-ship FL, IP, FWIC...probably won't happen if you FAIP. Of course if worked out for the current CSAF...and A LOT of others.

The absolute worst part of being a FAIP seems to be no follow on. You will compete (for three years) with all the rest of these sharp, mature (in most cases) folks and someone is guaranteed to not get what they want. Even though, more than likely, a FAIP finished high enough in their SUPT class to get their 1-3 choice they could end up with their last choice of airframe depending on the needs of the AF. How they are perceived in their Sq/CCs eyes means everything. That means lots of extra additional duties to stand out.

Before I left the AETC gig I did see that Gen Marne Peterson was working to remedy this at AETC level. I haven't heard whether on not the situation has improved.

BL- Your career's not over if you FAIP, It's just on standby...and there's a war on.

[The Kayla]

Can you be considered for a FAIP slot if you have X-amount of years already in?

My husband is "open-minded" to FAIPing, and I have been told that he won't FAIP because he'll hit 10yrs this July, and I have been told that he can be FAIPed.. Was curious if anyone on here knew the "story".

[Guest Light the Wick]

Yes. After you graduate, you'll go TDY to PIT. It lasts just about 4 months,... maybe a tad less. I don't think FAIP's will proficiency advance much, although many of the MWS types might.

Not if you go through ENJJPT - they have an in house PIT

[sky_king]

I'm just finishing up PIT as a FAIP. FAIPs will fly all the sorties. Proficiency advancing is an option but there is no way they will do it... I've tried...

Also, anyone who is a 1st or 2nd Lt is on the hook for FAIPing (even if you have 10 years prior enlisted). Captains are exempt because of the limited MWS time they'd have when they hit there Major's board, or so I hear.

[Spartacus]

Nicht on the proficiency advance thing for FAIPs. (usually) It really depends on what type of impression you give them... I no kidding was flying with the OG and had to basically stop him from doing something wrong/dangerous (yes, I was sweating the consequences of that move) and when we got back in the flight room he went to the Flt/CC and told him to proficiency advance me. I reminded him that I was a FAIP and even stated that I had several more rides and a lot of special syllabus left and he said that he still wanted to proficiency advance me. (I actually still wanted a few rides.) I'm not saying this to brag but just wanted to let people know that there is no rule against it. I've seen other FAIPs proficiency advance too and it is usually because of their maturity and the impression that they give, and it is also worth noting that a FAIP should do pretty good in PIT because they just flew that jet that they are FAIPed into recently.

[Toro]

Can you be considered for a FAIP slot if you have X-amount of years already in?

As sky king said, it's not time in service, it's rank - so a Capt (or 1Lt close to pinning on Capt) will not be FAIP'd, but a new O-2E could be (they started that in about 1997). I believe you said somewhere that your husband is prior E, so he could potentially be FAIP if he is not close to pinning on Captain.

Proficiency advancing is an option but there is no way they will do it

That's lame - especially if you're going to a T-1/T-38. You just finished UPT, I would hope they would consider you proficient in flying the jet and you should definitely be proficient on the general knowledge and systems knowledge. They proficiency advanced me through all but a couple of my initial rides prior to my first Form 8, and they prof advanced me through a couple of the instructor rides.

[usaf36031]

Are FAIPs predator immune?

[sputnik]

I was FAIPed as a 1LT, the other two FAIPs from my class were both Capt's. Granted, I was the only one to finish PIT but that's something else. FAIPing a Capt is a dumb idea, but it has happened. If they don't do it right now, doesn't mean they haven't in the past or won't again in the future.

Pencilpusher had some excellent points. It was nice to come into my MWS with a rapid upgrade, but there's a lot to be said for being a copilot. While it's true that the days of copilots not having jobs have passed, 'growing up' in an MWS would be nice.

On the other hand, even now I have more IP time than primary, and relatively little of the dreaded "other." I think most heavy drivers have few hours issues, but if you do the FAIP thing you do get a lot of quality hours.

[The Kayla]

As sky king said, it's not time in service, it's rank - so a Capt (or 1Lt close to pinning on Capt) will not be FAIP'd, but a new O-2E could be (they started that in about 1997). I believe you said somewhere that your husband is prior E, so he could potentially be FAIP if he is not close to pinning on Captain.

Thank you! My husband will pin on 02 next year, right after he graduates UPT.

Guess I gotta start being "open minded" to FAIPing...

[sky_king]

AETCI 36-2205 5.15.2.5.5. For rated management reasons, do not assign FAIP duty to captains (as of graduation), even if they volunteer.

Captains cannot be FAIPed.

However, take that with a grain of salt. That same reg says this...

AETCI 36-2205 5.15.2.2. FAIPs will be identified with an MWS and guaranteed a follow-on assignment to that MWS (fighter, bomber, tanker, strategic airlift, or theater airlift). WG/CCs are not authorized to change this FAIP assignment process.

Nobody has told me anything about what I'll be flying next.

[Ram]

As sky king said, it's not time in service, it's rank - so a Capt (or 1Lt close to pinning on Capt) will not be FAIP'd, but a new O-2E could be (they started that in about 1997). I believe you said somewhere that your husband is prior E, so he could potentially be FAIP if he is not close to pinning on Captain.

That's lame - especially if you're going to a T-1/T-38. You just finished UPT, I would hope they would consider you proficient in flying the jet and you should definitely be proficient on the general knowledge and systems knowledge. They proficiency advanced me through all but a couple of my initial rides prior to my first Form 8, and they prof advanced me through a couple of the instructor rides.

I started PIT immediately after getting my wings and I was prof advanced a LOT. Much more than I expected.

I heard "well, you just did this in UPT so we dont' need to worry about teaching it to you too much..." Maybe it's a function of your performance in pilot training or something, I dunno.

I thought PIT was a gentleman's course, especially compared to ENJJPT. Your milage may vary.

[HuggyU2]

Do you have any visibility on how different Sheppard PIT and Randolph PIT are? Different culture? Unlikely anyone here has been through both, but I'd be curious. When I went through in 2001 at Randolph, it seemed a bit tough on the 2Lt's.

[RangerMateo]

Just curious about FAIP assignment process as it stands currently. Someone said that there are still occasions where you can go to the U-2 or even B-2 if you tracked T-1's and then FAIP. Is there any truth to that at all? I can't imagine it would be real common, but is it doable?

[brabus]

A guy FAIP'd T-6 out of T-1s and went U-2s...that was about 1-1.5 yrs ago. So yes, it's possible, but I would think pretty hard to do. I'm sure Huggy can expand on it. I heard a rumor that as of now you have to be 38 trained to go to the B-2, but I have nothing concrete to back that up.