FAIP Q&A

[Ram]

^yeah, they're sending some FAIPs to the F-117, as well.

And, of course, the top brass at ENJJPT is convinced that one of their FAIPs will end up in the F/A-22 someday. Don't hold your breath, though

[JS]

Originally posted by deweygcc:

Thats totally NOT fair and if the NEEDS of the AF demanded IPs, there are a shitload of OPS guys that would give their right arm for it. Like that Major that just loves to fly.

I would argue to say that a flying training squadron filled with 49% majors, 50% captains, and 1% Lt Cols is probably lacking a little balance. Without FAIPS, there would be no LT instructors.

Originally posted by KoolKat:

FAIPs bring something valuable for studs...a vivid recollection of what its like to be in UPT. Certainly, not all Ops guys still have that

I don't know about everyone elses experience at UPT, but some of our best instructors were FAIPS. As a matter of fact, our class voted a FAIP for our "best IP" awards in T-37's, T-1's, and T-38's. In T-1's the competition for best IP was between 2 FAIPS.

I say keep UPT instructors balanced with young, fresh FAIPS, some 2nd tour guys with some ops experience, and some crusty reservists with hundreds of thousands of Tweet hours.

[Toro]

You fill out a dream sheet very similar to the one you filled out in UPT and submit it to your commander. Unlike UPT, this is 100% commanders ranking. While your daily flying performance may play into this, your UPT performance holds no weight.

[Guest thtflyer]

When does the three year commitment for a FAIP start? Is it right after you graduate, or not until you return from PIT? What about if you go back to PIT for the T-6? How does that effect the timeline?

[Guest goldbar03]

I think the 36 month ADSC for FAIP starts when you graduate from PIT. When you get your orders for PIT, you should also get the ADSC letter that goes along with it... it will be more specific as far as dates are concerned, and the outbound assignments office should be able to answer any questions that come up.

As far as the T-6 is concerned, you wouldn't actually be going back to PIT to become an instructor, per se -- you would just be going to get qual'd in the T-6. I'm sure there's some obscure AFI out there that spells it out, but I haven't heard any transitioned FAIPs (i.e., those at Laughlin) that have complained about getting screwed after ramping up ops in the T-6 as far as commitment is concerned.

There may very well be some ADSC involved in getting qual'd in the T-6, but it may be shorter than your FAIP commitment and/or concurrently served -- so you may never see the commitment because you still have to finish out your initial 36 month instructor deal.

this is somewhat educated speculation, so other info would help!

[Flare]

Originally posted by thtflyer:

When does the three year commitment for a FAIP start? Is it right after you graduate, or not until you return from PIT?

It's 36 months from the day you take your last PIT checkride at ENJJPT..thats why I busted my a** off to finish on Jun 30 instead of 1 Jul last year....that 1 day bought me 1 less month until I finish my FAIP assignment.

[Guest ViperDriver98]

I left DLF about a year and a half ago, and they had me for about an extra 3 months (but I also was able to do SOS- and I definately recommend pushing to get this done if possible). My 38 Bro's currently there are approx 120 days overdue getting their assignments which in turn delays orders and when you actually get out the door. Another factor is how many slots FTU's have available. Some of the A-10 assigned guys actually left 2 months before their 3 years would've been up, another A-10 person got pushed back 3 extra months. I haven't heard any stories from guys going to heavies, so I assume they are getting on with their lives on the proposed timeline.

[Guest RaptorwannaB]

Now that the pilot slots are in, I've been wondering about the pros and cons of FAIP duty and what they look for in selecting the FAIPs (First Assignment Instructor Pilots for those who dont know).

Also, do FAIPs get a guarenteed or at least a better pick of what aircraft they want to fly after FAIP duty? I dont know much about this area of pilot training and have heard different things.

[HerkDerka]

I'm not a FAIP but I might be able to help ya.

For the pro side, you're given a ton of responsibility as a young pilot. You are going to be an instructor, aircraft commander, and possible even an evaluator as a young lieutenant. On the con side, you have to stay in the AETC world for three years. Also, a few MWS guys might look down their nose at you.

FAIPs aren't guaranteed a follow-on like they used to be. Now they have to compete with other FAIPs for their follow on. And your follow-on will be comensurate with your SUPT track.

The best guys to go to on this are Toro and ENJJPTIP. I'm sure they can hook you up.

HD

[Toro]

Pros,

- As a T-38 FAIP, I got just over 1000 hours in three years. As I've heard many times - it wasn't so much 1000 hours of flight time, it was one hour of flight time 1000 times. That flight time definitely got me better at tac formation, rejoins, and landing, but the airmanship and general flight knowledge is something that hits a plateau in less than three years.

- If you go fighters you can upgrade to flight lead faster at your Ops unit (FAIPs require 200 hours versus the normal 300 to begin).

- If your first choice is not available at your UPT drop, it may be their when you get your next chance three years later (there were no Strike Eagles in my UPT drop). Along with this, your UPT performance plays no part in your post-FAIP assignment. In theory you could finish at the bottom of your UPT class, then get your first choice after your FAIP tour.

- If you're married, it's a great first assignment for the family. The hours are long, but you only 'deploy' for cross countries, and those generally had plenty of volunteers. Along similar lines, it's a great opportunity to get your Masters degree.

Cons,

- By the time you get to your Ops unit, your buddies will all be 4FL instructors. Guys who you gave dollar rides to could be writing your gradesheets in the MQ program. That's not something that bothered me, but some guys don't dig it.

- If you're interested in Weapons School, being a FAIP will make that tough due to three years taken from potential Ops time accrued before you reach the age (rank) limit of applying for Weapons School.

- I mentioned in the Pros that you could get a better aircraft three years later. This can be a double-edged sword...I have a friend who graduated top of his class and chose a FAIP to remain at Columbus with his AD wife. Three years later he got his last choice of assignments.

I personally enjoyed my time as a FAIP. I like being an instructor, I liked the T-38 and if I had a choice I would do it again.

[scoobs]

Is it possible to get more then 1000 hrs?Another con is living in Enid,Laughlin,or Moody for three years.Also if your single you might stay that way.

[TheInner]

Scoobs, don't forget the lovely town of Columbus as well. To answer your question yes you can get more than 1000 hrs and as a matter of fact it is rather difficult to not get more than 1000 hrs as a Tweet FAIP, but you will have to ask someone else for definitive answers about T-1 and T-38 FAIPs. In my opinion the only reason FAIP always seems to be looked down upon is the fact that you are stuck in AETC 3 more years. The hardest part for me has been reading all the emails from my UPT buddies out there doing all kinds of cool operational stuff while I try to explain to Stan why you need to abruptly move the stick forward after one full turn in the spin recovery procedure for the 69th time. Based on the fact I am still currently a FAIP I suppose I don't have the best answer but I definitely agree with TORO about the pros of the job. As most of you know and would probably agree, FAIPs all but run the squadron in UPT, especially the Tweet squadrons. Along with that comes lots of responsibility both flying wise and in the squadron. Here at Columbus they shy away from FAIPs being examiners but everytime you fly a student sortie you are logging IP time which is invaluable and your airmanship just grows on a daily basis which will be nothing but a good thing no matter what your follow-on is. Just as a side note I did not put FAIP anywhere near the top of my dream sheet but I know that my time here in UPT as an IP will make for memories I will never forget and an experience that can't be replaced.

[ghost_ttu]

I'll be nearing my 29th B-day when I get my wings, I know there was a recent thread on weapon school, but Toro you mentioned the age/rank issue with Weapon School. I'm still only a 2d Lt, so are they going to actually look at my age in that equation if I get in the position to try for weapon school?

[Toro]

Originally posted by ghost_ttu:

are they going to actually look at my age in that equation if I get in the position to try for weapon school?

No, that's why I said "age (rank)". You normally hear guys say they're "too old for Weapons School," when it's not actually age that matters, but rank. Unless you can get a waiver, captain is the cut off for application - if the AF is going to invest that much training on an individual they want to be able to get more of a return on their investment.

[Guest pcampbell]

I'm looking for advice from the old dudes...

I've been thinking about FAIPing for the family advantages. I will be closer to home, my wife digs her job, the area isn't too bad. My flight commander sat me town this past weekend and told me to get it out of my head. I want to fly the A-10, and he told me he would help me get it. Would it be bad to FAIP, and then try to get the A-10 after my FAIP tour?

[Ram]

I'd try to get your 'Hog now, if you can. Nothing says you're "guaranteed" to get a hog after your time as a FAIP.

[Toro]

I FAIPed in T-38s and had a great time for three years, but if you can take your fighter right out the door, go for it. Go Ops for now - I guarantee you will get a chance to come back to AETC. I know many guys who FAIPed, one of whom finished first in his class and elected to stay at Columbus because his wife was stationed there. Three years later he got his last pick of aircraft.

[Guest Hoser]

RANT SWITCH ON:

Dude, you are a grade A homo if you choose to FAIP, family be damned

Vetter, you must not be married. If you are, I wouldn't expect you to be much longer with an attitude like that. The Air Force will come and go, but your family is supposed to be there forever. You have to take care of them too becuase without them, you wouldn't be able to do the things you do in the first place. Whether it be right out of UPT or after an Ops-to-Ops assignment, dudes look for an assignment that will allow for a little more quality family time. It doesn't mean he hates the fighter lifestyle, it just means the family need a little care and feeding.

unlike UPT, which for the most part, assigments are based on how well you did. As a FAIP your assigment has nothing to do with how well of an instructor you are, how much you fly, or flying talent and skill.

aerogrd: so do they pick the FAIP's names out of a hat? It's all about making the effort. Guys like Toro got their first choice out of UPT with 1) some luck, because there is no guarentee to be a Strike Eagle in every drop, and 2) because he worked his ass off. He was an instructor controller in the RSU, check pilot, FCF pilot, etc and not every FAIP upgraded to those positions. On more than one occasion, he was voted Favorite IP from a graduating class, not favorite FAIP, favorite IP. There were some FAIPS that did the min run, skated by, and got MWS's that were not their first choice. Bottom line, it's a combo of luck and your hardwork, and that goes for any assignment, whether it be straight out of UPT or after a FAIP tour.

Try to get what you want now, there is NO guarantee you will get it after a FAIP tour.

You're not guaranteed your choice out of UPT either. It's a gamble either way. You have just a much chance getting an A-10 out of UPT as you do out of a FAIP.

That way they can actually teach the student something about being a pilot in the Air Force

FourFans130. The T-38 side of UPT, at least when I was a FAIP, was all wrapped up in having students lead 2-ship low levels, leading formation landings, etc. In actuality, Phase III is training the product of our customers, which is IFF, followed by FTU's, followed by their first Ops Squadron. From the time they leave UPT, the average graduate is going to be a wingman for the next 2 years. Can a FAIP teach a dude about notching and threat reactions? No. Can he teach a dude to fly in position off lead, stay visual, maintain element deconfliction, and say "2" on the radio? Yes.

Razorback,

Some other things you need to think about are things like going to Weapons School, if that is something that interest you. In order to go to WIC, you have to be an IP in your MWS with at least 50 hours of IP time. The average path to WIC is a young guy right thru the pipeline into his first Ops squadron. During that tour, he starts getting groomed for WIC, and will complete 2FLUG (Flight Lead Upgrade) then 4FLUG, then onto IP. Most dude are finishing the IP upgrade on there way out of the squadron to their next OPS tour (grooming = preference for Opt-to-Ops assignments). They hit their new squdaron, rack up the 50 hours, submit their package (STS) and off they go. The point being it normally takes a guy into his second operational tour in the MWS.

If you FAIP first, you would be hard pressed to finish 2FLUG, 4FLUG, IPUG and get your 50 hours within the average 2yr, 8 month tour, although their is a certain F-15E pilot who was a FAIP that did it and is currently commanding a squadron. He is definetly sharper than your average dude. Can it be done? Yes, but it is friggin difficult.

I enjoyed my FAIP time. I flew my ass off (over 1,000 hours in a 3 year tour, can't say I've gotten that many hours in the Mud Hen during the last 3 years) and the quality of life was good for the family. I definetly enjoy the F-15E more. You can't turn camel jockeys into hair, teeth and eyeballs in the T-38.

Whatever your get, I'm sure you'll enjoy it and the wife will be there right beside you. Good Luck.

RANT SWITCH OFF

Hoser

[ 14. June 2005, 22:27: Message edited by: Hoser ]

[KennyB]

If you've been considering FAIPing all the way into T-38s, why didn't you tell all your classmates? I guarantee you would have been EVERYONE's best friend, not to mention the gallons of free beer. If you’re so confused that you think FAIPing is a good deal, all your classmates will want to keep you just drunk enough that you won’t convince yourself otherwise.

It’s not too late! Get the word out today! And if you need help with that beer let me know.

[Guest pcampbell]

Well, you guys brought up an interesting question for me. I've got a total of seven years in (6 enlisted). Let's say I'm a SH wingman, ready for the graduate level fighter stuff. Will the Air Force look at my age, probably 33-34 by that point, and say they don't want to invest WIC in me? Let's say I'm the #1 wingman, would they give it to #2 because he's 27?

[B-O-double-Z]

Originally posted by Razorback:

Well, you guys brought up an interesting question for me. I've got a total of seven years in (6 enlisted). Let's say I'm a SH wingman, ready for the graduate level fighter stuff. Will the Air Force look at my age, probably 33-34 by that point, and say they don't want to invest WIC in me? Let's say I'm the #1 wingman, would they give it to #2 because he's 27?

For now I'd worry about making it through UPT.

Being a good wingman is just the first step. You have to progress through Two-Ship flight lead, then Four-Ship, and eventually Instructor Pilot upgrade before you are a candidate for WIC.

If you end up being a candidate for Weapons School, your age or prior enlisted time won't be a liability. They do look at your date of officer rank. A young captain is preferable to a senior captain or major.

[Guest ViperDriver98]

What about a married Academy grad? (Note 1: Joke only)

Some FAIPs have bad attitudes and hate life, while most have good attitudes and really enjoy thier time there. I was one of the latter FAIPs. I always thought that I'd never regret one day of my FAIP experience, but now that I've been out of Viper RTU for about 6 months I'm not so sure. You get left in the dust by your classmates you got commissioned with, some of mine were in WIC when I was getting my F-16 IQ check. You will end up as the wingman for your former students, which is actually really cool. However, when you've got a major's board coming up you have to wonder how you will stack up with the rest of them....

If I had to do it over again I'd go out to the CAF. (Only having children would change my mind on this.) You will always have time later to go back to AETC and maybe it would be at an RTU instead of UPT. You just never know. Also you could be trading an A-10 now for a UAV later.

[ 16. June 2005, 08:04: Message edited by: ViperDriver98 ]

[LT4Life]

I rolled the option of FAIPing around for a while too. I talked to a few instructors from an MWS and they told me FAIPing is a good deal, but they have a lot more to offer the "kiddies" with an MWS tour under thier belt than the FAIPs with 112 hours of dual Tone time. As for the family, that was my number one reason for FAIPing and yet another instructor told me if you FAIP then after that you will have at least 2 back to back MWS tours. If you have a family then a lot of guys like to use the instructor slot (and from what I understand you only get one) between MWS as a 'break' or at the end when the kids are a bit older and they could interact more with them than just diaper changes and such.

Just a thought. Like C-21 pilot said, consider the 21 world as well.

[163 FS]

As a current T-6 FAIP I can tell you that it isn't a bad deal. I didn't choose to become a FAIP, but that is the way the cards were dealt.

I don't know how the Toners do their FAIP thing, but I can tell you that FAIPs in my T-6 squadron are offered some resposibility off the bat.

I'm having a great time in my tour. I've flown both the Tweet and the T-6 and have about 6-9 months before I find out my next assignment. It is hard work at times, but you are home alot. Here are some pros and cons:

PROS:

1. IP time that will help you become a better pilot.

2. Home at night

3. Can go X-C pretty much any weekend you want and to whereever you want (to an extent)

4. Responsibility from within the squadron (Check Section, Possibly Flight Commander, etc)

5. CT X-C to Nellis

6. CT X-C to Nellis

7. CT X-C to Nellis

CONS:

1. Not able to get your hands "dirty" right away, thus not having and experience other than UPT to rely on.

2. Talking to your pilot training Bros and after they told their stories of IRAQ or whatever, having to say "That sounds a hell of a lot cooler than what I'm doing right now --DOGFACE/CONTACT SPINS."

3. Most of the MWS dudes are cool with the FAIPs, but their are a few haters (mostly old FAIPs it seems).

All in all, I didn't seek it, but it has been a great experience for me. I have two kids now and can see them all the time. By the time I will be deployed for the first time, they will be in school, that helps.

Hope this helps.

[sky_king]

How many hours does a FAIP end up with when it's all said and done for both T-6 and T-1 FAIPs? I'm interested how FAIPs do with their number one choices after FAIPing as well.