Stealth Eagle?

[M2]

Interesting...

Cheers! M2

Stealth Eagles?: A new wrinkle has been added to the tacair choices facing the new Administration. Yesterday, Boeing unveiled its new F-15SE, the "Silent Eagle," an aircraft which it claims can meet the same degree of stealth as export versions of the Lockheed Martin F-35. It achieves that feat via several design changes: using conformal pallets that can carry weapons and fuel internally, canting the vertical fins outward, applying stealth coatings across the whole aircraft, and through application of the F-15E Strike Eagle's digital electronic warfare suite and AESA radar. There are ways to address the large radar cross section of the F-15's fan blades, but those would depend on what technologies the US government deems releasable, Brad Jones, Boeing's F-15 Future Fighters program manager, told the Daily Report. The new conformal weapons pallets are interchangeable with the previous, fuel-only conformal fuel tanks, and therefore don't change the F-15SE's aerodynamics. Boeing calculates the flyaway cost of an F-15SE at about $100 million, including some spares and additional maintenance gear. The stealthy mods are also available as a retrofit for existing F-15 customers, although the company would not quote a price. (Also see Boeing release)

[Guest Unconfirmed Source]

[Hacker]

Bizarre idea. Seems like putting a band-aid on a sucking chest wound.

They don't seem to have addressed what really makes the F-15E a "high observable" platform. Hint: it's not the straight-up vertical stabs or the AMRAAMs hanging on pylons under the wing.

Plus...those "internal" 120s probably eat away at that CFT fuel capacity...

EDIT: Linky to a high-res photo: https://www.sflorg.com/aviation_gallery/mil...itary_38?full=1

Edited March 18, 2009 by Hacker

[Steve Davies]

Hacker

They reference the compressor blades in the article that M2 linked to. The CFT in the photo is actually a 'weapons pallet' (i.e. FAST pack) and therefore carries no gas.

As for the LO loadout, isn't 4xAIM-120 pretty underwhelming?

Looking at the existing F-15E FMS customer base, I am struggling to identify who might go for this as a retrofit; looking at potential FMS customers, it seems that the likes of Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon would be a much better deal.

[Hacker]

And here I thought that the "F" in "FAST" stood for "fuel".

As for the LO loadout, isn't 4xAIM-120 pretty underwhelming?

So was the F-117's two whole bombs.

[Steve Davies]

And here I thought that the "F" in "FAST" stood for "fuel".

True, but it was always either fuel, or internal sensors, never both at the same time. Same applies here.

In any case, I just wanted to say FAST packs, so leave me alone!

[Hacker]

True, but it was always either fuel, or internal sensors, never both at the same time. Same applies here.

In any case, I just wanted to say FAST packs, so leave me alone!

And here I thought the "A" in FAST stood for "And". Apparently it stands for "Or".

[Guest Unconfirmed Source]

Looking at the existing F-15E FMS customer base, I am struggling to identify who might go for this as a retrofit.

Isreal is what popped into my mind, with the thinking that they usually pull off some pretty far out there things.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Unconfirmed Source

[Steve Davies]

And here I thought the "A" in FAST stood for "And". Apparently it stands for "Or".

Don't blame me for McAir's use of a misleading acronym!

There were five main FAST pack concepts:SEAD version, Recce version, RATO version and Strike Assist version. Based on the original concept drawings that I have, only the fifth concept - the Fuel version that eventually developed into the tangential carriage CFT that you use - actually carried gas.

[Steve Davies]

Isreal is what popped into my mind, with the thinking that they usually pull off some pretty far out there things.

I suppose that it depends on what threat systems the likes of Syria and Iran field in the future, but in a totally unscientific fashion I look at the F-15SE and wonder whether its RCS reduction will be significant enough against an S300 or Phazotron Zhuk AE to be worth the expenditure accross what is a very small fleet of jets (IDF purchased only 25 F-15I Ra'ams).

Israel might be more inclined to spend those sorts of dollars on its expansive F-16C/D or F-16I Sufa fleets, as these seem to be where the IDF's current development emphasis lies.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Steve Davies

[Guest Unconfirmed Source]

I suppose that it depends on what threat systems the likes of Syria and Iran field in the future, but in a totally unscientific fashion I look at the F-15SE and wonder whether its RCS reduction will be significant enough against an S300 or Phazotron Zhuk AE to be worth the expenditure accross what is a very small fleet of jets (IDF purchased only 25 F-15I Ra'ams).

Israel might be more inclined to spend those sorts of dollars on its expansive F-16C/D or F-16I Sufa fleets, as these seem to be where the IDF's current development emphasis lies.

True, I was thinking more along the lines of what they did with only 12 F-16's in 1981 and what the larger fuel capacity of the F-15 would enable them to plan in the future.

But hey... this is all speculation anyway, personal opinion is Boeing is just hoping to get some of LM's fighter money

[Guest Krabs]

Boeing is just hoping to get some of LM's fighter money

Bingo.

[fastnumber15]

SO.....MANY.....ACRONYMS..... .....head....hurts.....

[ClearedHot]

SO.....MANY.....ACRONYMS..... .....head....hurts.....

AMRAAM = Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile

CFT = Conformal fuel tanks

MOD = Modification

FAST packs = Fuel And Sensor Tactical Packs

IRST = Infrared Search and Track

AESA = Active Electronically Scanned Array - (V3 denotes version #3)

Double Digit SAM = Typically denotes latest generation of Radar Guided Surface to Air Missiles each has two digits in the numerical identifier (Examples include SA-10, SA-12, S-20 & SA-21)

[brickhistory]

CH, ever thought of becoming an ABM? You tossed around the (correct) acronyms pretty good for a fist full o'throttles guy...

I keed, I keed...

[Duck]

$100 million a copy? A Raptor is $150 million a copy. Totally worth the extra $50 million.

Your right Sir, 100 million isn't really an alternative to the F-35 or the 22. Plus with the way we contract, we would order 900 of them but only end up buying around 50, driving the cost up to $300 million a copy.

[ClearedHot]

CH, ever thought of becoming an ABM? You tossed around the (correct) acronyms pretty good for a fist full o'throttles guy...

I keed, I keed...

Blasphemer!!!

[M2]

More reporting from the AFA...

Cheers! M2

Stirring the Tacair Soup: Boeing's new F-15SE design, the Silent Eagle, which the company unveiled on Tuesday in St. Louis, is ostensibly being marketed to current foreign users of the F-15, such as Israel, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, and South Korea, which have expressed a desire for stealth capability. But it could also complicate the debate in the US over tacair modernization, which Pentagon officials supposedly were in the final stages of resolving as they worked through the Fiscal 2010 budget process. Boeing doesn't claim the F-15SE is the equal of the high-end F-22, but it does consider it as a marketing contender to the low-end F-35.If the F-15SE can really be nearly as stealthy as the F-35, as Boeing claims, then it might give ammo to those who want to slow or cut the F-35, which has been portrayed as a technologically necessary response to the unstealthiness of the fourth-generation F-15s and F-16s that make up the bulk of USAF fighter squadrons.

The Silence of the Eagles: Brad Jones, Boeing's program manager for F-15 Future Fighters, said in a March 17 interview, that the F-15 Silent Eagle gains an important speed advantage from pulling weapons inside its two new conformal weapon stations and will have a top speed greater than Mach 2.5 in a dash. That is useful for flinging small diameter bombs up to 60 miles away. In addition to carrying AIM-9 and AIM-120 air-to-air missiles internally, the F-15SE can carry 500- and 1,000-pound joint direct attack munitions and the aforementioned SDB inside, he said. Up to four 500-pound JDAMs and up to eight SDBs will fit in total in the two conformal weapon stations. Boeing plans to test the F-15SE late this year or early next, at which time it intends to evaluate the aircraft's radar cross section and actually fire a missile from the new conformal weapons bay. If there's customer interest, development and testing will continue. By the way, the actual aircraft to be used is an Air Force asset leased to Boeing as a technology demonstrator.

Not Keeping Silent: Boeing's announcement March 17 that it is exploring the concept of a "stealthy" F-15 Silent Eagle model with the same degree of stealthiness as the export-version F-35 Joint Strike Fighter has raised some skeptical eyebrows in the industry. Asked for comment, a Lockheed Martin spokesman said, "The experience of the aerospace community to date is that very low-observable stealth, as possessed by the F-22 and F-35"—both of which Lockheed has the lead in producing—"can be achieved only when it is incorporated into an aircraft's design from the outset." Strap-on measures like "treatments and shapes generally achieve a relatively minor radar signature reduction" when tried with fourth-generation fighters (such as the F-15 and F-16), continued the Lockheed official. Boeing did not disclose how it would reduce the radar signature of the engine fan blades on the Silent Eagle; they are a huge radar reflector. Brad Jones, the company's F-15 Future Fighters program manager, said there are ancillary measures such as fan blade blockers and radar-absorbent treatments of the engine intakes. But, he would not discuss the main solution, saying only, "stealth technology has come a long way" over the last 20 years.

[pawnman]

This is the dumbest idea ever. I cannot even begin to list the number of reasons why this is retarded. 4 AMRAAMs? Scoff. No CFTs, No bombs (or very few bombs), no external fuel tanks? An Eagle carries 13.8 internally on a good day. You're not going anywhere with 13.8 With this mod you lose all of the great qualities of an E model. And what the hell is the 2nd seat for? Gonna need help with those 4 AMRAAMs?

$100 million a copy? A Raptor is $150 million a copy. Totally worth the extra $50 million.

Now I have a much better idea. Add "FAST packs" to a C model and up it's total missile load to 12. Slap an IRST on the centerline. Load up 4 AIM-9Xs, 8 AMRAAMs, and 940 rounds of M-56. Throw a V3 AESA in the nose and NOW we're talking! It won't cost $100 million either, and you'll be an air dominance badass that can't go anywhere near a double digit SAM.

BeerMan

I'm guessing it would be way less than $100 million a copy to outfit our current Eagles instead of buying new.

[WheelzUp]

I'm guessing it would be way less than $100 million a copy to outfit our current Eagles instead of buying new.

Shack! In a world where new fighters cost stupid mega bux, maybe the rest of the world has a good idea. Upgrade what you have and make it last.....wow....what a concept!

[busdriver]

Do you really think the stealth aspect is what is making the F-22 and JSF expensive? So you build a stealthy Eagle, how much will it cost to upgrade the avionics to JSF/Raptor standards? We'll just ignore the airframe age for the sake of this argument.

[brickhistory]

Shack! In a world where new fighters cost stupid mega bux, maybe the rest of the world has a good idea. Upgrade what you have and make it last.....wow....what a concept!

Rest of the world?!

B-52, KC-135, C-130, even the F-15/F-16/A-10.

Hardly a novel concept that the US has ignored.

The question is, how long do you keep putting lipstick on the old sow(s)?

Until a jet breaks up in flight?

Ok, milestone achieved already.

Can't blame Boeing for trying to sell.

Or another country for wanting to buy.

We need new build stuff to replace our old and getting older stuff.

The object is win big, not have a duel with evenly matched opponents.

[pawnman]

Do you really think the stealth aspect is what is making the F-22 and JSF expensive? So you build a stealthy Eagle, how much will it cost to upgrade the avionics to JSF/Raptor standards? We'll just ignore the airframe age for the sake of this argument.

I'm guessing even if you do the stealth and AESA upgrades, you're still way under $100 million. F-22's are nice, but with the current administration's focus on big military budget cuts, maybe this is a decent alternative until we can drum up some more money. We've already bought all the Raptors we're going to, why not upgrade the Eagles we have to supplement them?

I don't think anyone's arguing that we should cancel our Raptor order...I just don't think we'll have enough Raptors to get the job done.

[brickhistory]

I'm guessing even if you do the stealth and AESA upgrades, you're still way under $100 million. F-22's are nice, but with the current administration's focus on big military budget cuts, maybe this is a decent alternative until we can drum up some more money. We've already bought all the Raptors we're going to, why not upgrade the Eagles we have to supplement them?

I don't think anyone's arguing that we should cancel our Raptor order...I just don't think we'll have enough Raptors to get the job done.

I think you are right regarding the Administration.

I don't think you'll get any additional money for either more F-22s or new flavors of Eagles.

[WheelzUp]

I think you are right regarding the Administration.

I don't think you'll get any additional money for either more F-22s or new flavors of Eagles.

You're probablly right brick, but being realistic, it seems more likely that something like this could be justified, for existing Strike Eagles and such. The current administration is only gonna see the dollar signs IMHO.