The Js are in Afghanistan

[M2]

From today's AFA Update...

Cheers! M2

The Js are Here: The Air Force has just stood up a new airlift squadron at Kandahar Airfield, Afghanistan, to support the increased levels of US troops in the country. The 772nd Expeditionary Airlift Squadron, a C-130J unit, was officially activated on March 15 under the 451st Air Expeditionary Group. "Tactical airlift is a high-demand asset here, and we are at the leading edge of the Afghanistan surge of forces," said Col. Ted Osowski, commander of the 451st AEG. He added, "The C-130J is a very capable aircraft and we are happy to have them; they're going to be busy." Indeed, already on the day prior to the formal standup, the first four of the squadron's aircraft were flying missions. The 772nd EAS will have eight C-130Js and about 120 operations and maintenance personnel, all of which come from the Little Rock AFB, Ark.-based 41st Airlift Squadron, which deployed to Southwest Asia in early 2008 with its new J models and currently is the Air Force's only active duty operational C-130J unit. "Being the only active duty C-130J unit in theater, we will have the opportunity to lay the foundation for future C-130J operations here," said MSgt. Patrick Drozd, a C-130J loadmaster now with the 772nd EAS. (Kandahar report by SSgt. Zachary Wilson)

[war007afa]

The only USAF C130J unit in theater. I'm sure our blimey brothers who have been busting hump with their aerospace vehicles out of that shithole for years might have something to say about that...

Ballsy move, though. That place gets rocketed more often than Lindsey Lohan gets a DUI!

[slacker]

The only USAF C130J unit in theater. I'm sure our blimey brothers who have been busting hump with their aerospace vehicles out of that shithole for years might have something to say about that...

Ballsy move, though. That place gets rocketed more often than Lindsey Lohan gets a DUI!

The only active duty C130J in theater.

I might know someone who flew the first ever US J model on any combat sortie, that happened to be in Afghanistan. It was way back in 04. Old news, big deal. Yippie for the Active Duty 5 yrs later.

[Vertigo]

The only active duty C130J in theater.

I might know someone who flew the first ever US J model on any combat sortie, that happened to be in Afghanistan. It was way back in 04. Old news, big deal. Yippie for the Active Duty 5 yrs later.

I was gonna say--- I remember some J's coming through ORAT when I was there in '06.

[GW]

The J's have been coming to and from Afghanistan for several years now.

Nothing like promoting one narrow side of the story, good job PA.

GW

[Guest flyguy]

The J has been in and out of the whole region for a long time.....but the AD needs their time to shine....gee who taught those guys how to fly the thing, or did all the OT&E on it...don't hear much about that

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Of course the article fails to mention the complete employment incompetence of the Sq/CC in charge. He's a menace to tactical airlift. But hey, he know's how to get himself promoted...so at least we've got that going for him...

Now he has offically stood up 2 squadrons that look great on paper but are operationally castrated.

FF

Is this guy a former KC-135 dude who was also known for being against importing legacy Herk guys into the community?

[Guest Hueypilot812]

He should be gone by the time I'm headed down the street...

[Guest Slowmover]

He should be gone by the time I'm headed down the street...

He's already gone. He's going to SDE this summer.

And believe it or not, there's alot of logic in not filling up J units with E/H pilots. We've learned alot about CRM, automation management, and so on from dudes with other experiences. We'll never get our money's worth out of the J if we keep treating it like an H4. Different airplane, different capabilities, different considerations. I think the ETAR dudes are in for a surprise if they take all their IPs, push them though the FTU in 4 months, and expect them to be instantly good at the J.

Say what you want about the man -- alot of people think he's a jerk, or worse -- but he is very, very good at making processes work. He just rubs crew dogs the wrong way.

[tac airlifter]

Granted, I don't need play the I-am-a-molecule-of-fuel systems game, and I don't need to route SKE until my eyes bleed. Most of those things will depart the squadron along with the Eng's and Nav's (no apologies...that's all stuff we don't need in the J). I think it's a MUCH better plan to retread E/H guys than to populate a squadron with OSA / FAIPs / initial guys. Herk pilots know how to study and understand it's value, they also know how to hack a mission safely while still pressing as hard as they can. Right now, the 41st does not have that sharpened combat edge, and that's a dangerous way to be as the newest tac airlift squadron around.

FF

That is a great articulation of something I have seen but not known how to put into words. Many of my dealings with the 41st leave me very unimpressed by the squadron, and a lot of guys will take what I've seen on interfly missions (which we hardly do anymore) and say "the J sucks because it can't accomplish X mission at JFEX." The legacy guys who say that are 100% wrong; as a former legacy guy I can say with no ding to my ego that the J is a far better aircraft. Unfortunatly, many people flying the J at the 41st are not as good at utilizing its capabilities as they should be. An initial qual copilot and former 135 AC are simply not going to understand the best way to fly a herk like an experienced E/H crew does.

My experience with the guard J guys is the exact opposite. They know how to fly and use the aircraft and they do it very well. Where the 41st has embarassed itself in the desert the guard J's have excelled. Bottom line from my perspective-- the J is better at most things than legacy hercs and certainly better at what we do deployed; but like Lockheed Fix said, this is a gig that legacy guys should have dibs on. I understand it's a new plane and shouldn't be limited by the restrictions of the old, but there are certain peculiarities about executing the 130 mission that transcend information managment display differences. The 41st has intentionally turned its back on the vast combat experience of the E/H squadrons at LRF because they think their new toy is so different that it is no longer a herk at all.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

He's already gone. He's going to SDE this summer.

And believe it or not, there's alot of logic in not filling up J units with E/H pilots. We've learned alot about CRM, automation management, and so on from dudes with other experiences. We'll never get our money's worth out of the J if we keep treating it like an H4. Different airplane, different capabilities, different considerations. I think the ETAR dudes are in for a surprise if they take all their IPs, push them though the FTU in 4 months, and expect them to be instantly good at the J.

Say what you want about the man -- alot of people think he's a jerk, or worse -- but he is very, very good at making processes work. He just rubs crew dogs the wrong way.

There's also a lot of E/H guys that have flown aircraft with automation. Making the assumption that E/H guys have no clue what an FMS or glass looks like is a very bad mistake. I'm a former C-21 guy, and many other legacy dudes have flown various different airframes with much greater levels of automation than the E/H-model Herk. I bristle at the statements I've seen and heard that "well you're a legacy guy, you have no idea what automation and glass cockpits are like". Wrong.

If anything I think the E/H makes people a BETTER pilot, because it forces you to use your brain and apply tried-and-true concepts. Learning glass is NOT that big of a deal, I did it going from the Tweet to the T-1, and I did it learning to fly the C-21. If anything I had a harder time trying to "de-glass" myself going from the EHSI/TAWS/EGPWS/TCAS/MFD/FMS days of the C-21 to the non-glass round dials of the E/H.

[Guest Slowmover]

I'll start at the top.

FF, you are right about the lack of tactical focus in the 41st, and you are correct in applying the blame to the man. As for the ETAR guys, they will be pretty good after 4-6 months. But that's not what I said. I said they won't be good right out of the FTU. And you are right that there are some good IPs in the 48th. But don't forget that they primarily provide basic instruction while flying empty airplanes around Arkansas. That isn't the same as the operational mission. As for the CC, I agree about the instructor corps. But that's a double edged sword. If you don't promote guys, you won't have anybody to fight for you at the top when you need it. Finally, he didn't pick when the unit deployed. On multiple occasions he delayed or reduced that unit's deployment commitment because we weren't ready. Did we still go too soon? You bet. Could it have been worse? You bet. The root cause of the problem there is how AMC failed to adequately plan for the stand-up and growth of that unit. Oh yeah, maybe the 48th IP was thinking about a 3-eng go at KLRF with a 110,000# airplane but the 41st IP was thinking about a 3-eng go with a 140,000# plane at OAIX.

Now, on to LockheedFix. Read my earlier commend about the 48th. Good dudes, good pilots, but not the same as an operational unit. In terms of capabilities, you're right that mostly what it does is do what an E/H does, and do it better. But is that not a capability in itself? The increased performance and weight capacity is a game changer in terms of mass on an LZ or how you deal with a threat, for example. A legacy dude understands the new capabilities, to be sure, but you'll have a hard time proving to me that he isn't somehow handicapped by "old ways" of doing business. A lot of that depends on the individual himself -- but I am paranoid about applying legacy tactics to the J just because "that's how it has always been done." I am constantly battling with E/H dudes about why the J doesn't have to do this, or that, because it doesn't make sense for the J. Also, I never said that a non-legacy dude will be better than a legacy dude at employment right out of the gate. Legacy guys understand the mission and that's a huge plus, and they'll beat the average non-legacy dude every time, all others being equal. But those other guys will learn it eventually. And what we have seen is that a highly experienced legacy guy with minimum J time will get beat by a relatively high-J-time FAIP in the short run, until the legacy guy gets his J skills up to par with the FAIP. Finally, as for your comment about the 2-person cockpit, I think you're dead wrong. The CRM is way easier in some respects because there is less to talk about, but it is harder in other ways, especially in a busy operational environment where you're trying to fly, run a few radios, and manipulate the computer. Either way, it isn't intuitive for a purely-legacy guy.

Next up -- tacairlifter. I agree 100% with your comment about the 41st crews. And I agree with your comment about the Guard. Some of those guys have been flying the J close to 10 years and they sit around in 1 unit with the same people and fly airplanes. We shuffle people in and out of units and jobs and put the emphasis on BS that doesn't matter one iota when it comes to getting a mission done (PME, PT, Masters, etc). That's an advantage the Guard will always have and I just hope we have enough SA amongst us to ask them for their opinion when the time comes. But I disagree with your comment on combat experience. There are plenty of legacy dudes in the 41st with combat experience from every other AMC Herk base. And, the "vast combat experience" in the rest of the LRAFB ops units is vast but not terribly diverse -- I bet it took all of a week to figure out how to do a single-ship pen-D to a 10,000-ft runway in a MANPAD/RPG WEZ.

Finally -- Hueypilot. You're right, legacy dudes with some other glass background do fine. But for a legacy guy with no glass background, the 4 month FTU just teaches the basics. It doesn't leave the average guy comfortable or really proficient. That takes more time.

And for all of you -- AFPC picks who comes in. Like it or not, that mix is what it is. I think AMC is killing itself by crossflowing dudes from one MWS to another, but they didn't ask me. Finally -- this is a 1v4 fight. I ain't skeered.

[Champ Kind]

Finally, a good discussion around here!

[tac airlifter]

"And, the "vast combat experience" in the rest of the LRAFB ops units is vast but not terribly diverse -- I bet it took all of a week to figure out how to do a single-ship pen-D to a 10,000-ft runway in a MANPAD/RPG WEZ."

This is exactly what I'm talking about; there is a misconception that all the LR guys have done is pen D's to Iraq. There is in fact a wide varity of combat experience doing every mission a herc can do in every theater-- Southcom, OIF, OEF, HOA etc. If the 41st would get out of their shell and ask guys across the street what they've actually done they wouldn't have these same detrimental misconceptions. As for the 1v4 fight.... good on you bro! keep swinging.

[Guest Slowmover]

There is in fact a wide varity of combat experience doing every mission a herc can do in every theater-- Southcom, OIF, OEF, HOA etc. If the 41st would get out of their shell and ask guys across the street what they've actually done they wouldn't have these same detrimental misconceptions.

There are dudes in the 41st that flew 130s at KLRF, KDYS, KPOB, and who knows where else, and those dudes have that experience that you're talking about. I don't see what the big deal is about coming across the street and asking when we have the same level of experience in house. If there have been problems with the 41st that can be attributed to lack of combat experience or whatever (that's a big IF, and careful where you go with this since every Herk squadron I have ever heard of has had at least one dude do something dumb in the desert), then it goes back to FF's statement that the focus hasn't been on tactics in the 41st. In other words, it isn't because we've been sitting around in our own world, too good to talk to the 50/61/53 or whoever, it is because we've been making powerpoint slides or whatever.

Besides, the point is now moot, since the 41st has had dudes in the desert for a year now, doing everything that a Herk does.

[FourFans]

Besides, the point is now moot, since the 41st has had dudes in the desert for a year now, doing everything that a Herk does.

...and more. Some of the DZs and LZs we've hit over there are pretty much untouchable for other herks. That being said, it's sad just how much our focus ISN'T on tactics. Hell we don't even have a WO in the Sq right now!

FF

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Hueypilot. You're right, legacy dudes with some other glass background do fine. But for a legacy guy with no glass background, the 4 month FTU just teaches the basics. It doesn't leave the average guy comfortable or really proficient. That takes more time.

You've just explained the dilemma that nearly every crossflow guy has ever faced, so why is the J so special when it comes to crossflows? I'll give it to you that yes, the FTU only teaches the basics, as does the E/H FTU (I'm an EP there now). Crossflow guys (doesn't matter whether MWS/OSA background) ALWAYS have some catching up to do. I did, and it was a huge learning curve to go from a semi-glass, somewhat automated cockpit with a simple mission of hauling pax around, to flying a 1960s, round-dial airplane with a mission far more complex than anything I did in OSA. The same can be said of tanker dudes coming to the E/H...I've seen many of them run to catch up as well, because the FTU only taught them the bare basics of flying the airplane.

I don't see ANY differences between me going from a simple OSA jet to the E/H, versus going E/H to the J. Or any other crossflow scenario, for that matter. Unless you're one of the few C-17 airdrop bubbas, you probably have no clue what it's like to fly a low-level airdrop sortie with an automated flight deck, so the argument that C-17/KC-135/OSA/FAIPs are more desired over E/H guys is ridiculous.

Sure, an OSA/FAIP guy probably has more experience with glass, but they have ZERO experience with airland/airdrop employment. Ditto for any of the other MWS aircraft. Likewise, an E/H guy may (depending on their background) have no experience with glass, but they have significant experience in airland/airdrop employment, and although it may not translate one-for-one to the J, they understand what happens when you open those doors and throw something out the back, and they know what to look for on low-levels, and they've got experience flying vis low-level as well. Perhaps a modification of their thinking, but it's still down the same general avenue.

My main point is that you can't simply make a retarded comment like "E/H guys don't make good J pilots...we'd prefer our guys to come from OSA/FAIP/KC-135, etc" without completely overlooking the reality that a crossflow is a crossflow, and no matter who it is, regardless of where they come from, they've got to learn a new airplane. I simply don't see the logic behind saying that one group of pilots is better prepared to crossflow into the J than another, especially a group that already has flown props on airland/airdrop missions, and may have a significant background with other automated aircraft.

[Champ Kind]

So here's a question: Is an E/H guy that goes to the J considered a "crossflow", with the same associated career stink that comes with it as say, an E/H guy crossflowing to the tanker world?

If so, that really shows the mindset that higher-ups have about the E/H vs the J. Whether that's the CORRECT mindset or not is another issue altogether.

[Guest Slowmover]

Hueypilot, I never made and have never heard the comment that E/H guys don't make good crossflow guys, like you say. I think you're reading too much between the lines. The point is that going to the J is a full-up transition for anybody, in my opinion. FAIPs have to learn a mission, and E/H guys have to learn the automation/CRM part of it. An E/H guy with glass from a T-1 or wherever probably has the easiest time of it all since he has seen a little bit of both worlds. The J isn't any more special for crossflow than anything else. You start over, and work up from the bottom.

Now since you say you are an FTU EP, I'll just say that the J community is overflowing with 3rd-assignment O-4s who are chomping at the bit to upgrade. But, resources are finite, so who do you upgrade first. Is it the O-4 that has already been an MWS IP/EP, or is it the young captain that came over from the legacy as an MC who has never carried an A code and needs that for his personal and professional development? Answer is "it depends," but if you don't slow-roll at least some of the O-4s to allow some of the O-3s to upgrade then you'll be dead in the water in a couple years, and you'll be alienating the future of the MWS. So just be advised that that's what you could be getting into. I personally think it makes more sense to fill the J units up with younger guys and let the FTU EPs stay where they are. They're already experts -- why move them? Better to spend those upgrade hours on a younger 2nd-assignment guy who will be in a flying unit longer. And, don't come over to the J with "I was an FTU EP" and expect instant credibility. There are people in the J community that think that bringing E/H EPs over is just reinforcing old habits and ways of doing things. Come over with an open attitude and you'll be fine.

And Champ, I don't think E/H to J is treated the same as C-130 to KC-135 crossflow. But it ought to be. I don't care that it still has C-130 in the name. If the airplane is different enough to warrant a 4-6 month FTU, then it ought to count for a crossflow.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Slowmover

[Guest Form 8]

Affirm.

The tanker community has the same problem with airlifters doing the exact same thing.

[Guest flyguy]

I will say this..I am a former J guy now going to fly an E. I think I am the probably the first to go from J to E. I am at the Rock right now. Not going to lie the E is making me feel a bit behind the curve even coming from the J. In the E you actually have to know the aircraft limitations/systems/blah blah. In the J you do not need to know $hit compared to the E...it is a plane for not so smart pilots like myself. The task saturation you can feel in the J I can see being eliminated with the Nav but from the limited action we have seen with the Nav thus far in Initial Qual....I can see feeling out of the loop as a pilot in the E. In the J you do all your own LL planning, TOLD charts, etc...where I assume in the Legacy world the Nav/FE has a better handle on the route stuff, TOLD req versus the pilots planning it....hope that made sense. I am not going to be doing any tac stuff in what I will be flying so will not be able to state an opinion on the comparison but I will say with 150% confidence that the J in terms of SA blows the legacy out of the water. The main issue guys should have crossflowing is learning the "FMS" in the J which is the lifeline of the plane and executing the mission....the whole dial to glass transition would not be hard for anyone...now learning to fly the HUD with no PFD might give people a hard time. Sorry for the novel.... maybe this gives another perspective

Edited March 22, 2009 by flyguy

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Slowmover,

I don't think you have to be concerned with me arriving in the J community and trying to turn it into a legacy-like community. I've already come from two very different worlds (OSA and helos), and I made the switch to the E/H just fine, I'm sure I can do the J as well. As for upgrades, I have no problem being a copilot for a while and raising the landing gear...I've already made it known I want to stay in the cockpit, so as far as I'm concerned, I'll have about 8 years to upgrade in the J before I depart the service...

Those that should be concerned are the ones trying to make it to staff at some point, where upgrading quickly might matter. I'll stand in line with everyone else...when it's my time to upgrade, I'll upgrade. As far as AC is concerned, doesn't the 100 hours PAA count, like it does in any other airframe? I'm not concerned with making AC since that'll happen fairly quickly, and no commander is going to be upset upgrading someone to AC if it doesn't eat up a school slot. IP skool, I can see where a CC would have to balance the needs of old guys versus new. Additionally, prior AMC IPs can do in-house upgrades as well without having to attend a formal course, further freeing up school slots for the young guys. But whether I'm a right seater or an EP in the J, I believe bringing my nearly 3000 hours of experience will help a new MWS, not hurt it.

Having NOT grown up in the Herk (and having flown the C-21 and the UH-1), I don't have quite the same narrow view others have in the E/H community, where their way of doing things is the only way they know how (not slamming you Herk-only guys at all...). I've had to adjust my mindset twice already, I'm quite certain I can do it a third time.

Edited March 22, 2009 by Hueypilot812

[JS]

....Say what you want about the man -- alot of people think he's a jerk, or worse -- but he is very, very good at making processes work. He just rubs crew dogs the wrong way.

Since you offered, here is what I will say about "the man."

The only "process" The Man knows how to work is the promotion process.

I personally witnessed The Man put his career before the mission and his people several times

I saw The Man sacrifice a mission to make his guys (himself) look good and as a consequence, troops on the ground did not get their shit and lives were put at stake.

I have witnessed The Man destroy the lives of several crewmembers for actions outside the cockpit for no good reason. And when all the people around him advised him to act differently, he blew them all off. Great leadership skills!!

And then The Man has the fucking balls to put himself in for a Bronze Star after all of the debacle with the first deployment - and he doesn't even know how to start an engine on the J-model. The ultimate of insults to all those who have earned the Bronze Star in the past.

The Man puts self before service and careerism before mission.

If Al Udeid is the place that has come to symbolize what is wrong with the Air Force today, then The Man is the person who has come to symbolize what is wrong with the Air Force today.

Although he is a decent person to converse with, and is by no means a Folgelsong, he is pretty much the worse I have seen in terms of careerism in my (relatively) short time in the Air Force. I can't wait to see the door hit him on the ass on the way out, but unfortunately I know that the door hitting him on the way out will be the other side of a door to his new general's office.

Edited March 23, 2009 by JS

[Guest Slowmover]

Fine, hueypilot, I won't worry about you coming to the J and treating it with an E mentality. Good luck at the FTU, whenever you start. But when I was talking about upgrade, I was referring to in-house upgrade to AC, not an FTU upgrade. There's a logjam at AC upgrade, like FourFans refers to. And if you've already gone from helos to C-21s to Es, what makes me think you'll stay in the J for 8 years? Are you a chronic cross-flow-er, always looking for something better or different? I'd rather be really good at one thing than sort of good at three things!

And FF, I think the reason that the squadron is slow to upgrade legacy guys is because several legacy guys have gotten themselves into trouble in one way or another. One legacy IP threw dudes off the end of a DZ at Pope because of a CNI-MU error. Another got behind the automation and got to 95 kts on the 086 run-in. A third somehow caught a tailskid in the desert. If something similar hasn't happened to you, then you're either better trained, better skilled, or just haven't been in that situation yet. I agree that 6 months out of the FTU before upgrade to AC is about right, and I like the training syllabus too. Better to take it a little slower (with all the pain that causes) than put a bunch of guys in a situation that they aren't prepared for. I'd rather have you bitch behind your anonymity on this board than rush out and do something to earn you a Q-3 that will follow you around forever.

Good discussion.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Slowmover

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Fine, hueypilot, I won't worry about you coming to the J and treating it with an E mentality. Good luck at the FTU, whenever you start. But when I was talking about upgrade, I was referring to in-house upgrade to AC, not an FTU upgrade. There's a logjam at AC upgrade, like FourFans refers to. And if you've already gone from helos to C-21s to Es, what makes me think you'll stay in the J for 8 years? Are you a chronic cross-flow-er, always looking for something better or different? I'd rather be really good at one thing than sort of good at three things!

Chronic cross-flower? WTF? And when did it matter what you think about whether I'll stay in the J?

Let me school you on a few things...I flew UH-1s for the Army Guard and transferred to the active duty Air Force, I would't call that a "crossflow" program, it's called an interservice transfer. And I went through UPT like everyone else here, and had the same choices in track select as you did. I chose something different from helicopters not because I wanted to be an opportunist, but simply because if I had to re-do pilot training all over again, I was going to do something different. Until you go through pilot training twice, I suggest you really don't have any room to criticize what I chose out of UPT.

Going from the C-21 to the C-130 was not my choice, it's just how AFPC does things. OSA tours are always 3 year controlled tours, and whether we want to stay or cross-flow, that decisions already been made for us.

Going from the E to the J is the first airframe change that is entirely elective. I guess you could say going from Army helos to AF fixed wing was, but it's not exactly the same thing as jumping MWS aircraft. Not to mention that I got hit with a 365 to BIAP, and that's really the only reason I'm getting the chance to change airframes...plus going to the J makes it slightly tolerable missing my family for a year. After switching airframes at this point in my career, I seriously doubt I'll switch again unless AFPC has something else in mind.

"Chronic cross-flow-er"....makes me want to respond a certain way. But that would turn this into a flame war, no?

Additionally, you speak of "in-house" upgrade to AC...if you're a prior qualified MWS AC/IP, there typically is no "in-house upgrade"...you simply meet the minimum time requirements (100 hours or so) and the commander can certify you as an AC. If you're a first-assignment guy, or someone who wasn't a prior AMC AC, then you do have to attend some kind of syllabus training, either at the FTU or in-house. Of course I say that with the caveat that I don't have a copy of 11-2C-130JV1 in front of me, just going from experience having been in 2 different AMC airframes. Upgrading to AC as a prior-qualified AMC AC/IP is different than upgrading to AC as a copilot.

By the way, you can leave the attitude behind...the first sentence in your post reeked of it.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Hueypilot812