TCAS

[Flare]

Just out of curiousity, what mil planes DON'T have TCAS?

I'm guessing only 130 E/H, A-10, U-2, B-2...?

Vipers don't have them.....but the T-38C does!

[Herk Driver]

As someone already pointed out, google the DHL - Russia charter plane crash over Ueberlingen, Germany in 2002. It will set your mind pretty straight over whether to follow the instructions of ATC or TCAS. Had these guys both followed the TCAS RA, 71 people would still be alive today.

IIRC, this prompted an FCIF followed by the "new" guidance already quoted on this board that makes it mandatory to follow RAs.

Pirate AF, unless I'm reading what you wrote incorrectly, some C-130E's have TCAS and some more C-130H's have TCAS.

Edited April 18, 2009 by Herk Driver

[Guest Form 8]

Right...

Again the question was what mil PLANES don't have TCAS.

edited for readability/politeness

A lot of fighters don't have TCAS.

[Jughead]

Just out of curiousity, what mil planes DON'T have TCAS?

I'm guessing only 130 E/H, A-10, U-2, B-2...?

I've been told B-52s do NOT have TCAS (or anything else resembling modern avionics)....

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a BUFF guy, I just work with a lot of them....

[pawnman]

Just out of curiousity, what mil planes DON'T have TCAS?

I'm guessing only 130 E/H, A-10, U-2, B-2...?

BONEs don't have TCAS either.

[Guest T2 Ernie]

Few quick points from the new guy:

1 - Never blindly trust technology. If you can back it up with MarkI eyeball, so much the better. IMC, go with what's giving you the best info.

2 - DHL - Russian crash. The AIS bubbas like to hold it out that the controller was responsible for that crash. Wrong. I don't care what the official report said about him working two sectors, etc. He identified the conflict and provided guidance to the Russian crew to resolve the conflict. The Russians, being very used to well-controlled GCA followed him, ignored their TCAS and caused the crash.

Which brings us to point 3

3 - TCAS is based on predictability. If both planes have TCAS and both parties follow their RAs, then we have predictability and TCAS is a good thing. When you inject unpredictability either by virtue of not following an RA or not being TCAS equippeed, then blindly trusting the technology may hurt you and I refer you back to point 1.

My 3 x RA were ALL in the UK in London Mil airspace while on a RIS (now called Traffic Advisories, I think) while OAT. ALL were fast jet aircraft rapidly climbing through my altitude and in EVERY case TCAS told me to climb. In every case, this compounded the problem (and I either acquired them with the Mk1 eyeball, had the SA to know I was over Leeming with FJ training, or had a heads-up from London Mil) - fortunately, for all three I was VMC above the ever-present low cloud in the UK.

This just illustrates my point that non-TCAS equipped aircraft may not do what TCAS expects them to do. TCAS also has a relatively slow "refresh" rate, so relying solely on the "fish finder" to let you know where folks are may not work real well either, but I do bring that into the crosscheck for anything that turns yellow or red and will augment a climb/dive with lateral to maximize distance if I feel the need.

At the end of the day, the PIC is responsible for the safe execution of the mission. In my mind, that not only allows me to disregard RAs, but obligates me to do so, if executing them would be more hazardous. At the end of the day, I will have to stand before the man and justify what I did, but I'm happy to do that so long as I'm above ground.... ;)

[Guest Form 8]

My 3 x RA were ALL in the UK in London Mil airspace while on a RIS (now called Traffic Advisories, I think) while OAT.

Request RAS next time.

[Guest Cap-10]

Just out of curiousity, what mil planes DON'T have TCAS?

I'm guessing only 130 E/H, A-10, U-2, B-2...?

None of the fighters (Viper, Mud Hen, Eagle, and Hawg) have TCAS.

We do have a radar (except the Hawg).

Cheers,

Cap-10

[Guest SOF HERK]

Request RAS next time.

No way. First, it still wouldn't provide any relief from my "obligation" to follow my RA. Second, it would force London Mil to give me wider vectors to achieve a greater clearance. Third, it's kind of pointless in VMC. VMC on RIS (Traffic Advisories now) & "happy to continue" see me through most issues... ;) :D

New terms for the ATSOCAS are in effect from last month...no longer called RAS/RIS/FIS. ;)

[barney]

Do all aircraft (mil/civ/airliners) need to have TCAS to fly in Class A airspace on a Jet route in the CONUS? RVSM?

Thanks

[Bronco130]

The T-6 doesn't have TCAS and flies in jet routes.

[Guest Justshootme]

Do all aircraft (mil/civ/airliners) need to have TCAS to fly in Class A airspace on a Jet route in the CONUS? RVSM?

Thanks

Jet routes? No.

RVSM? It depends. TCAS is part of the equipment required to be RVSM-certified, but you can fly in RVSM airspace in a non-RVSM aircraft with approval from center. They just have to make more room for you.

[kack911]

Unless things have changed in the last year or so (and that's a real possibility), then TCAS is not required for RVSM certification or operation. No precoordination with TMU necessary.

However, if you do have TCAS installed, it MUST be version 7 (or later) software to operate in RVSM airspace. The v7 software reduces the sensitivity (sts?) of TA/RA envelopes to account for the "Reduced" part of RVSM.

[Butters]

Unless things have changed in the last year or so (and that's a real possibility), then TCAS is not required for RVSM certification or operation. No precoordination with TMU necessary.

However, if you do have TCAS installed, it MUST be version 7 (or later) software to operate in RVSM airspace. The v7 software reduces the sensitivity (sts?) of TA/RA envelopes to account for the "Reduced" part of RVSM.

No, things have not changed. Everything you said is 100% accurate.

[Right Seat Driver]

The T-6 doesn't have TCAS and flies in jet routes.

Don't some tails have TCAS while the others are still rocking out that awesome paper-weight called NACWS?

[Guest Justshootme]

I defer to the above posts. My knowledge is limited to "reasons why the B-52 is too old to fly RVSM".

[Day Man]

Don't some tails have TCAS while the others are still rocking out that awesome paper-weight called NACWS?

IIRC it was TAS (traffic avoidance system?)

[SurelySerious]

IIRC it was TAS (traffic avoidance system?)

True, they have TAS and NACWS. Not TCAS.

[RangerMateo]

IIRC it was TAS (traffic avoidance system?)

Correct...and F NACWS, it was completely worthless.

I think the 1000 VVI line in GP about climbs/descents in RVSM airspace is directly related to not setting off people's TCAS. Even if you have v7, anything over 1000 fpm could still set it off, especially if one guy is descending and the other climbing.

Think it's still a good idea to follow it though at first while looking for the conflict and if there's no conflict in following it continue to do so. It's not always the guy you have in sight that is setting it off...(Happened to us at KTUL). They're also supposed to be smart enough to not have you descend into the ground (GPWS and Radio Alt are supposed to talk to it), but then again...

[brabus]

Why is a tanker code 3 for TCAS? Seriously, you guys won't fly without TCAS?

[Butters]

Why is a tanker code 3 for TCAS? Seriously, you guys won't fly without TCAS?

Once you go TCAS, you never go back! Or something like that.

[Guest Crew Report]

Why is a tanker code 3 for TCAS? Seriously, you guys won't fly without TCAS?

It's in our Vol 3 MEL for formation flying (something we never do in the AOR) and in the local MEL at a deployed base for all sorties.

[Techsan]

I'm not sure I'd fly OEF w/o TCAS. I have zero trust in Wizard, Pyramid, or Miser.

[Guest Crew Report]

I'm not sure I'd fly OEF w/o TCAS. I have zero trust in Wizard, Pyramid, or Miser.

I don't. On my last deployment TCAS gave us an RA to descend and then Miser cleared the conflicting aircraft to descend into us.

[stract]

1st Heli in the news...

https://www.cnn.com/2013/05/27/us/reagn-airport-close-call/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

not being TCAS equiped, a question for the masses: if both aircraft had each other in sight and were maintaining visual separation, why did the crew respond to the TCAS RA?