Non-Scholarship Commitment

[Guest Deputy Unicorn]

Hello all and thanks for taking the time to read and answer. Sorry if this topic has been covered, I have been lurking and reading, searching, and talked with my local Det and stumbled upon this question.

I was AD Enlisted Mar2003-Mar2005 at which point I force shaped. I am about to finish my Associates at the community college under the impression that there was a 2 year program for ROTC. I visited my Det and after reading the forums as well as a few other places I have decided to stretch my education out a little bit to hit the 3 year mark in ROTC.

My original plan was to do my first year as100+200 doubled up on non-scholarship while I took a couple of upper grad courses (saves $$) at the community college and just commute via cross-town agreement. After this year I was planning to attend field training and accept the scholarship. Thereby gambling on a UPT slot like everyone else.

Just recently there has been an amendment (a new program actually) to the MGIB called the Post 9/11 GIB. When I was AD I paid my kicker but since I separated before the 36 month mark I lost my MGIB benefits. Now I will be entitled to pretty much a full ride + BAH + Books. My incentive to ROTC is obviously the higher chance of a UPT slot as well as the experience, but no longer the scholarship.

So my question is this, is it possible to just attend ROTC for 300 and 400, apply for a rated slot, and all the while not have signed a contract because I'm not under scholarship? Is it mandatory no questions asked you must be on scholarship to continue on with the 300/400? I know most will recommend to use my 9/11 GIB and apply to a guard unit, but I'm kinda partial to the military life on the AD side of things. To top it off, going to OTS and competing for a slot is ridiculously competitive and I would prefer to have the best odd's I can (which in my case is ROTC).

Really it seems like I'm asking to have my cake and eat it too. Applying for a rated slot without signing a contract first would be ideal, because if I don't get it I can choose at that point to apply for guard slots. My logic is circular but makes sense. Why would I incur a commitment if I haven't taken any scholarship money? It seems to me like the only way they could prevent this is to say "Nope, you can't continue to AS300 without incuring a scholarship / stipend." The Det Sgt. that always picks up the phone has just transfered to the Det about 3 weeks ago, so he is kind of clueless. Anyone able to shed some light?

Edited April 21, 2009 by Deputy Unicorn

[Butters]

So my question is this, is it possible to just attend ROTC for 300 and 400, apply for a rated slot, and all the while not have signed a contract because I'm not under scholarship?

No it is not possible. When you start 300 you owe 4 years. scholarship or not.

[Guest Deputy Unicorn]

No it is not possible. When you start 300 you owe 4 years. scholarship or not.

Kind of sucks but seems like typical AF fashion. At least when I signed as enlisted I could get a guaranteed AFSC lol.

So pretty much a 4 year hitch in exchange for a $400 a month stipend and an increased chance of a UPT slot. Crappy part is you can't double dip with the new 9/11 GIB because instead of a check in the mail your school is paid directly from the government.

Decisions.... Decisions

Edited April 21, 2009 by Deputy Unicorn

[FalconXtreme]

400 your 300 year and then 500 ur 400 yr!!!! thats worth it right there.

[Butters]

Kind of sucks but seems like typical AF fashion. At least when I signed as enlisted I could get a guaranteed AFSC lol.

Well, no it doesn't suck. They do not want half the class quitting when they find out they did not get a pilot slot.

[Guest Deputy Unicorn]

Well, no it doesn't suck. They do not want half the class quitting when they find out they did not get a pilot slot.

Which is understandable, but since big blue hasn't invested in you because your not on scholarship or collecting a stipend then really what have they lost? If anything this would probably prove more profitable because they only get the people that actually want to be there, and at most they paid for a few BDU's and some classroom time (and a plane ticket to maxwell).

Really, financially, if half the class chooses to stay despite the non-rated slot, the AF would come out far ahead.... Top it off with the fact that they have people who WANT to be AF officers first, and just thought it would be great to fly, as opposed to the people who really want to fly, and just settle with being an officer first. They would also still keep all the kids who chose the scholarship route (because once they start paying, obviously you have to commit), which is IMO a very large reason why people choose ROTC to begin with. In reality you would be loosing maybe 20% of your work force, saving the money from the scholarships and stipends, and turning out a higher quality product in the end. Generally if someone really just wanted to be a pilot, and they didn't get selected, I would imagine they would do their 4 year hitch and not re-up. The AF really is just re-couping the loss from the scholarships and training and you have a never ending turn over of lower quality officers who are not seeking a retirement and a career, just a free education.

But they don't pay me to make decisions yet.

Remember, just because something has been done a certain way for a long time, doesn't mean it was done in the most effecient fashion.

But we digress from the orignial topic at hand. Thanks for the answer butters, regardless of opinions I learned long ago you just gotta roll with the punches.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Deputy Unicorn

[FalconXtreme]

financially ur also forgetting all the pay and benefits for the cadre members that run the detachment. i'm to tired to go into detail but if u really want a rated slot and are honestly trying for one then you will get one with or without a scholarship.

[Guest Deputy Unicorn]

financially ur also forgetting all the pay and benefits for the cadre members that run the detachment. i'm to tired to go into detail but if u really want a rated slot and are honestly trying for one then you will get one with or without a scholarship.

Its actually a law of diminishing returns though...

Those Cadre will already be on post teaching and supervising those Cadets that are on Scholarship and Stipend to begin with. You are increasing their workload yes, but salaried workers cost the business no more when they simply work harder.

And I understand about personal drive being the ultimate factor. I don't know if you have gone AD yet, but in my personal experience on the enlisted side of things there is a HUGE difference in productivity between those who want to be there, and those that have to be there. It can kill the moral in a shop.

In my situation I would be throwing away a scholarship though, which is what I'm trying to avoid. So I have to find the best way to tweak it to my needs, all the while giving the AF what they want. I liked what you said above about 500 the 400 etc... because then I could possibly use my 9/11 GIB to pay for flight school at a 141 past my PPL. More time = higher PCSM = slightly higher odds.

Then my GIB wouldn't go to waste.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Deputy Unicorn

[Butters]

Which is understandable, but since big blue hasn't invested in you because your not on scholarship or collecting a stipend then really what have they lost? If anything this would probably prove more profitable because they only get the people that actually want to be there, and at most they paid for a few BDU's and some classroom time (and a plane ticket to maxwell).

It has nothing to do with money. The AF can't have scores of people quitting when they don't get what they want. That is why the commitment kicks in at the beginning of 300.

The AF does a terrible job of managing personnel, having a bunch of people who were programmed to come into the system quit because they didn't like what they got would cripple and already screwed up system.

If you want to be guaranteed a chance to fly, get rich and buy your own airplane.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Butters

[Guest Deputy Unicorn]

If you want to be guaranteed a chance to fly, get rich and buy your own airplane.

Damn, why didn't I think of that?

Seriously though, am I the only one who thinks it is a bit out of place to incur a commitment with absolutely no job promise or financial compensation?

I understand it is the way it is, and you either take it or don't. But it does kind of boggle my mind that no one here is going "yea, that is kind of odd."

Again, even when I raised my right hand as an ENLISTED men, I still got my AFSC in writing.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Deputy Unicorn

[Vertigo]

Damn, why didn't I think of that?

Seriously though, am I the only one who thinks it is a bit out of place to incur a commitment with absolutely no job promise or financial compensation?

I understand it is the way it is, and you either take it or don't. But it does kind of boggle my mind that no one here is going "yea, that is kind of odd."

Again, even when I raised my right hand as an ENLISTED men, I still got my AFSC in writing.

But not everyone does... some enlisted have to go in open <whatever> for various reasons.

And they are promising you a job and financial compensation- the job is being an officer in the U.S. Air Force and they are giong to pay you a monthly salary + housing to do it.

It's guys like this that become the shoes that mandate saluting in PT gear, OREs in the desert, reflective gear out the ying yang, etc. They don't get a rated slot so they have to take their anger out on the rest of the Air Force by instituting ridiculous rules. Misery loves company.

[Guest Deputy Unicorn]

It's guys like this that become the shoes that mandate saluting in PT gear, OREs in the desert, reflective gear out the ying yang, etc. They don't get a rated slot so they have to take their anger out on the rest of the Air Force by instituting ridiculous rules. Misery loves company.

Your kidding me right?

I'm the one who points out a flaw in the logic, and the one who talks about how shops are run way more efficiently when they are filled with people who want to be there, as well as the most effecient way to do this so as to boost morale...... and now I'm the guy who doesn't want to be there and makes ridiculous rules? I probably spent more time exploiting rules so I didn't have to follow them. I feel that just because something is being done, it doesn't mean its being done right. always question things and look for the best avenue. but if you want to drink the koolaid, go ahead

Makes sense...

Edited April 23, 2009 by Deputy Unicorn

[pawnman]

Damn, why didn't I think of that?

Seriously though, am I the only one who thinks it is a bit out of place to incur a commitment with absolutely no job promise or financial compensation?

I understand it is the way it is, and you either take it or don't. But it does kind of boggle my mind that no one here is going "yea, that is kind of odd."

Again, even when I raised my right hand as an ENLISTED men, I still got my AFSC in writing.

Umm, no. I didn't get any extra bonuses for signing on to OTS...why do you think you should get special bonuses for going a different commissioning route? You aren't incurring a commitment without financial compensation...the USAF is going to pay you the entire time you are on active duty.

[Guest Deputy Unicorn]

Umm, no. I didn't get any extra bonuses for signing on to OTS...why do you think you should get special bonuses for going a different commissioning route? You aren't incurring a commitment without financial compensation...the USAF is going to pay you the entire time you are on active duty.

See when you compare it to OTS it then makes complete sense, as I would be receiving no extra incentive. But i'm not applying to OTS, i'd be applying to ROTC. Without getting into a pissing match ROTC is a rather significant chunk of time, and you got paid to attend OTS. Apples should be compared to apples. The average ROTC stident will receive 15k in scholarship per year and as such, owes 4 years service to pay back their debt. I would not be accepting that money because I don't need it, so incurring the same contract seems odd. it is what it is, so I will do it, but again why is it this way? butters answered it pretty well though.

I'm not pursuing ROTC so I can have great AF pay and benefits, they are fine and all, but not that great, i'd be taking a pay cut as is. I would be doing it because I genuinely enjoyed serving and if I can get the opportunity to fly and make a difference as opposed to flying civilians as a glorified bus driver i'd love it.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Deputy Unicorn

[spectre56]

See when you compare it to OTS it then makes complete sense, as I would be receiving no extra incentive. But i'm not applying to OTS, i'd be applying to ROTC. Without getting into a pissing match ROTC is a rather significant chunk of time, and you got paid to attend OTS. Apples should be compared to apples. The average ROTC stident will receive 15k in scholarship per year and as such, owes 4 years service to pay back their debt. I would not be accepting that money because I don't need it, so incurring the same contract seems odd. it is what it is, so I will do it, but again why is it this way? butters answered it pretty well though.

I'm not pursuing ROTC so I can have great AF pay and benefits, they are fine and all, but not that great, i'd be taking a pay cut as is. I would be doing it because I genuinely enjoyed serving and if I can get the opportunity to fly and make a difference as opposed to flying civilians as a glorified bus driver i'd love it.

While I appreciate your sentiment about bucking the system, it seems like it boils down to whether you want to commission to be a pilot, then an officer or to be an officer, then a pilot.

Everyone who applies for a pilot/nav/abm slot in ROTC knows that there is a chance that they won't get it. You don't even find out whether you got it until spring break or so during your 300 year (as I recall). I would consider myself an average ROTC dude who wanted to be an officer and also wanted to be a pilot and I didn't get any scholarship or anything while I was in ROTC. As it turns out, I received a pilot slot, but even if I hadn't (I can't be a pilot) I would still have served as an officer until they kicked me out.

I'm just trying to figure out why this a problem for you...you sound like you want to be an officer no matter what job you get, but in the back of your mind, there's doubt if you don't get an active duty pilot slot. Just wondering.

[Guest Deputy Unicorn]

While I appreciate your sentiment about bucking the system, it seems like it boils down to whether you want to commission to be a pilot, then an officer or to be an officer, then a pilot.

I'm just trying to figure out why this a problem for you...you sound like you want to be an officer no matter what job you get, but in the back of your mind, there's doubt if you don't get an active duty pilot slot. Just wondering.

Thanks for being civil spectre! I'm glad actually, because I was kind of surprised how quickly people sort of lumped me into a judgment. Anyways to answer your question....

I have the opportunity to fly where I am at, in my current job as a civilian, at a raise actually with outstanding benefits. I also have the ability to attend school for free via the GIB, so tuition money and finishing my education is not a problem.

While I am not opposed in the least bit to being an Officer first, pilot second (I know this is my duty when I raise my right hand), I am of course hesitant. Why? Because I would be giving up a flying job and good pay, because it isn't flying in the capacity I enjoy. I enjoyed the military lifestyle, I enjoyed the camaraderie, I enjoyed the feeling of being something more than just myself. It would really suck however if I took a pay cut to end up as the freakin services Lt. or something. While I would of course suck it up, yea, I would kick myself in the ass. I would look back on it and say ...

"Self, why did you do that? It wasn't for the free school... It wasn't for the stipend... and your not flying... so why?"

Originally I posted the thread just to maximize my potential for success by exploring every available opportunity. In my mind, since the kids on scholarship incur a commitment the minute they take the money (even if freshman year), and since I'm about to take my 100 & 200 without a commitment, it was semi-logical to assume that if I didn't receive aid for my 300 year, maybe I wouldn't have to commit. Once butters said too bad so sad, I wanted to find out why. Because once you find out why something is the way it is, you might be able to circumvent that problem. But only by knowing your obstacle, can you get around it.

Call me a weasel, but if you ain't cheatin, you ain't trying. Any and every leg up I can get on the "competition" I will, as long as it is just and moral. Lots of people got mad at me for Force Shaping out before my commitment was up. I look at them as not striking while the iron was hot. Uncle Sam taught me that there is ALWAYS a way to accomplish something you want to do, as long as you; A.) ask the right question & B.) ask the right person. My cadre taught me some important lessons that didn't always jive with normal AF rhetoric. There is always an objective to accomplish. There is always the Air Forces way to do things, and all the other ways. Just because your way wasn't the "Right way" doesn't make it wrong. Accomplish the task via whatever means possible, because in the end you and your team goes home.

If there was some magic way to find out if I could get a rated UPT slot with before incurring a commitment, you bet your sweet cheeks I would jump on it. If anyone here says otherwise, they're lying to you.

"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."

Edited April 24, 2009 by Deputy Unicorn

[spectre56]

Originally I posted the thread just to maximize my potential for success by exploring every available opportunity. In my mind, since the kids on scholarship incur a commitment the minute they take the money (even if freshman year), and since I'm about to take my 100 & 200 without a commitment, it was semi-logical to assume that if I didn't receive aid for my 300 year, maybe I wouldn't have to commit. Once butters said too bad so sad, I wanted to find out why. Because once you find out why something is the way it is, you might be able to circumvent that problem. But only by knowing your obstacle, can you get around it.

Fair enough...I always like to find out the nuts and bolts of why things are the way they are, when I can. Sometimes you never find out. This may be one of those times; but more power to you if you do!

Call me a weasel, but if you ain't cheatin, you ain't trying. Any and every leg up I can get on the "competition" I will, as long as it is just and moral. Lots of people got mad at me for Force Shaping out before my commitment was up. I look at them as not striking while the iron was hot. Uncle Sam taught me that there is ALWAYS a way to accomplish something you want to do, as long as you; A.) ask the right question & B.) ask the right person. My cadre taught me some important lessons that didn't always jive with normal AF rhetoric. There is always an objective to accomplish. There is always the Air Forces way to do things, and all the other ways. Just because your way wasn't the "Right way" doesn't make it wrong. Accomplish the task via whatever means possible, because in the end you and your team goes home.

If there was some magic way to find out if I could get a rated UPT slot with before incurring a commitment, you bet your sweet cheeks I would jump on it. If anyone here says otherwise, they're lying to you.

"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."

I would have as well, but still would have signed my life away (again) had I not got it. This may be something you have to ask the folks at Maxwell.