T-38 vs F-22

[ClearedHot]

Posted outside the video thread because some are arguing this T-38 killed a Raptor during a within visual range fight.

As with other purported F-22 kills (aka F-18 HUD snaps), there is likely MUCH more to this video than meets the eye.

Regardless, it will likely be used as fooder for more nonsensical arguments.

Edited April 26, 2009 by ClearedHot

[slacker]

This just proves that we made the right decision to cancel the F-22.

[/sarcasm]

[Butters]

This just proves that we made the right decision to cancel the F-22.

[/sarcasm]

Looks like we should just buy 2,000 T-38s.

[Timbonez]

Chuck Yeager w/T-38 > F-22

[Butters]

Chuck Norris w/J-3 Cub > F-22

[gmwalk]

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

[pawnman]

I wonder if we don't have all the information on what kind of restrictions were placed on this fight. To me, it's a fairly laughable idea that a T-38 could close to the visual arena on an F-22.

[brickhistory]

I wonder if we don't have all the information on what kind of restrictions were placed on this fight. To me, it's a fairly laughable idea that a T-38 could close to the visual arena on an F-22.

Col Doug Masters, F-22 WG/CC, approaches the UPT base for a 'show and tell' display to fire up young student pilots, not knowing that the son of one of his now deceased Middle Eastern foes is going through training.

[Toro]

To me, it's a fairly laughable idea that a T-38 could close to the visual arena on an F-22.

With no background on the fight, I'd say it's possible that it started as a within visual arena (ACM) fight and the F-22 pilot simply lost sight. Not at all unlikely, and nothing to do with the capabilities of the aircraft.

[Hacker]

has no range capability except MIL sizing. Hence, it is impossible to validate the gun track.

Since when was MIL sizing not a valid way to validate a gun track?

When you don't have any method of active ranging, that's the ONLY way you CAN do it.

[donkey]

Chuck Norris w/J-3 Cub > F-22

It was only a matter of time.

[ram02]

I recognize the Ripsaw callsign from a fight I controlled not too long ago, F-22s v T-38s out of Holloman. They usually fly something like a 2v4 OPSAT with Raptors on the blue side and T-38s on the red side.

[08Dawg]

The IFF squadron at Randolph has done the same thing once or twice.

[Hacker]

Correct sir. MIL sizing is the only way to validate range with no radar and no ACMI.

I personally do not know how to validate a gun shot with an LCOS style gun sight in a T-38 with MIL sizing. With a FEDS and the proper wingspan set, a stable target, ok maybe.

Yes, that's correct to the best of my understanding. I've used the "K" word off a no-lock gun track as a Smurf bandit plenty o' times and never had to pay $5 because the shot couldn't be validated.

I just wasn't sure if there had been some change to shot/kill that I wasn't aware of and that you were referencing.

[Guest MegaPieBoy]

The link is dead now......

[Flare]

The link is dead now......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXmDj3mFrXQ

[brabus]

Why is this a big deal (to people outside this forum)...the Raptor is a duck; he's not maneuvering at all. For what reason I don't know, but this clearly is not a situation where the Raptor was doing what he could to survive and failed.

[JarheadBoom]

MIL sizing is the only way to validate range with no radar and no ACMI.

Just so I can keep up...

By MIL sizing, you're referring to the ability to estimate the range of a target based on it's approximate size, compared to the size of the reticle in mils (which is known, of course)? Similar in principle to a "mil-dot" rifle scope?

[Toro]

Just so I can keep up...

By MIL sizing, you're referring to the ability to estimate the range of a target based on it's approximate size, compared to the size of the reticle in mils (which is known, of course)? Similar in principle to a "mil-dot" rifle scope?

Yes

[2sBlind]

The LCOS style gun sight the T-38 is using is not accurate. That's why they make you use the FEDS in IFF.

LCOS in the T-38 (or the Eagle - same no-lock concept) is very accurate, at 1 range. It gives you appropriate lead for fire at a SINGLE range. You use the size of the target in relation to the size of the circles (MIL sizing) to determine when that range has been attained. Shot criteria determines if a shot is valid based upon these limitations.

IFF trains with FEDS and LCOS, depending upon what Fighter the student is going to.

Oh, and a broken clock is right twice a day too.

2's Blind...

[Duster]

I don't mean to derail the thread, and I know next to nothing about ACM, but wouldn't this have to be set up for a WVR-type engagement? What advantages does the T-38 have when playing red-air that a viper/eagle wouldn't? (besides size). Thanks.

Edited May 4, 2009 by double d

[Hacker]

What advantages does the T-38 have when playing red-air that a viper/eagle wouldn't? (besides size). Thanks.

None, it's just different.

The point is that the blue air needs to be exposed to different types of aircraft which look different and perform different.

[Hacker]

Is that new? Eagle dudes never used LCOS at IFF before. You had to use the funnel.

It changes depending on how the wind blows.

With the initial software suite in the T-38C, there wasn't a funnel so they taught LCOS pipper in IFF.

With the software change circa '04, they added the funnel and that became the standard because it was easier to teach kids to assess range and it was accurate at any range without doing any math.

Circa '06, there was an influx of new IPs at Moody (most of whom came from light grays, interestingly) who had a hardon about the LCOS pipper, saying "that's what they'll use in the gray jet!" and scoffing the funnel. They wanted to have Eagle students use the pipper instead of the funnel. I left the jet before they had enough experience as IPs to fight that battle so I don't know how it turned out.

Wouldn't surprise me if they use a different pipper depending on what jet the student is going to.

[Danny Noonin]

Circa '06, there was an influx of new IPs at Moody (most of whom came from light grays, interestingly) who had a hardon about the LCOS pipper, saying "that's what they'll use in the gray jet!" and scoffing the funnel. They wanted to have Eagle students use the pipper instead of the funnel. I left the jet before they had enough experience as IPs to fight that battle so I don't know how it turned out.

Wouldn't surprise me if they use a different pipper depending on what jet the student is going to.

That's exactly what was supposed to happen, but not based any Eagle dudes in IFF...it was Tyndall's input that I personally made as the C-model rep at the IFF syllabus conference in 06. The only reason that I was given as to why everyone used the funnel was so that everyone would be the same. That wasn't good enough for me, and no one could give me a better argument, so I asked for the change for C-model students and they said they would make it. Whether that ever actually happened or if it stayed that way, I don't know.

I could give a crap if the LCOS is not "accurate" at all ranges--it's a pretend gun! The only thing I give a crap about in IFF is that they learn concepts like lead fire, POM, and recognizing if they are in range. By the way, they better get used to mil sizing--we use that all the time. If they learn with a gun sight that is more representative of the aircraft they are going to, then that made sense to me.

Edited May 6, 2009 by T-Bone

[Ram]

I did IFF at Sheppard back in the Summer of '08. Future Eagle guys used the LCOS, and future Viper guys used the Funnel. All the IPs were well-versed in the uses of both types of symbology, and both types of symbology were taught in academics.

As a future (current) Viper guy, I never personally flew with the LCOS.