New Fitness Rules

[Champ Kind]

Anyone else hear the rumor that FACs were going the way of the black boots?

[rugger7]

I heard they'd be gone by January

[guineapigfury]

Now if we can just fix the integrity problem that led to the rampant cheating in the first place ...

[discus]

Now if we can just fix the integrity problem that led to the rampant cheating in the first place ...

I'll bet you never use "Answers.com" or go to the freezer in your flight room to find the answers to CBT's either do you? Queep is queep. Eliminate it where you can so we can do our best to win wars by flying multi million dollar aircraft into battle.

P.S. I don't consider the IDEA of a fitness standard to be queep, I just consider the current way the regulations are written to be.

[Catbox]

Now if we can just fix the integrity problem that led to the rampant cheating in the first place ...

I've heard this over and over and I'm sure it happened from time to time but I never witnessed it to the degree that the FAC system seemed to necessitate. In fact the ridiculous subjectivity of the FACs that affected nearly everyone ( either as a testee or a supervisor fighting with the FAC) was far worse than a few isolated cases of cheating.

[guineapigfury]

I've heard this over and over and I'm sure it happened from time to time but I never witnessed it to the degree that the FAC system seemed to necessitate. In fact the ridiculous subjectivity of the FACs that affected nearly everyone ( either as a testee or a supervisor fighting with the FAC) was far worse than a few isolated cases of cheating.

I saw plenty of people doing head nods while I was doing actual push-ups; it always pissed me off. I agree that FACs are expensive overkill and poorly implemented. I'd like to see us go to a run only test. The stopwatch doesn't lie.

[nsplayr]

I'd like to see us go to a run only test. The stopwatch doesn't lie.

YGBFSM. If that were the case this would be probably the "fittest" person on the planet.

Let's not worry about strength, power, flexibility, agility, coordination, etc. None of those are important WRT military/combat fitness...

Don't get me wrong, dude's a beast at the marathon, but this is not what a "fit" soldier should look like IMHO. Just because a run is easy to measure and cuts out bias pretty easily doesn't make it suitable as a single-component fitness test.

By your logic why don't we just have a waist measurement-only test? The tape measure doesn't lie either, and that way we could focus just on looking fit skinny rather than actually being fit!

Edited November 6, 2011 by nsplayr

[guineapigfury]

By your logic why don't we just have a waist measurement-only test? The tape measure doesn't lie either, and that way we could focus just on looking fit skinny rather than actually being fit!

Because massive cheating on the waist measurement was what drove us to FACs in the first place. We really shouldn't be scoring people on how well they can suck in their gut. If you can run the run in the given time, that's a reasonable proxy for some adequate level of fitness, which is all we really need from 90%+ of our airmen when they deploy. This isn't the Army or Marines. I like the run because the score is objective, there is no question of whether the tape was placed right or whether you did all of the pushup. A test that accurately measured how many pushups you did would be nice, but apparently we are unable to do that. Also, the PT test would take half the time it does now.

[Buddy Spike]

I saw plenty of people doing head nods while I was doing actual push-ups; it always pissed me off. I agree that FACs are expensive overkill and poorly implemented. I'd like to see us go to a run only test. The stopwatch doesn't lie.

Just go right ahead and choke yourself, Nancy.

[TrainerModel]

Just have the big blue air force do the Academy PFT and watch the fatties get the boot

[Pancake]

Just have the big blue air force do the Academy PFT and watch the fatties get the boot

Yeah. And have that STO, forgot his name (circa 1999), go base-to-base TDY to administer the thing. If you thought the complaints/failures are bad now...

[nsplayr]

A test that accurately measured how many pushups you did would be nice, but apparently we are unable to do that.

That's a problem with your people, not the test brother. Come take a test with me and you'll be judged fairly. We can even do hand-release pushups, that's fairly easy to judge

Also, the PT test would take half the time it does now.

Really...1 hour per year to assess our physical fitness is too much to ask? It seems like I spend more time training how to combat human trafficking and operate a fire extinguisher.

[guineapigfury]

That's a problem with your people, not the test brother. Come take a test with me and you'll be judged fairly. We can even do hand-release pushups, that's fairly easy to judge

Really...1 hour per year to assess our physical fitness is too much to ask? It seems like I spend more time training how to combat human trafficking and operate a fire extinguisher.

If you'll throw the bullshit flag, awesome. Now if we can only get everyone else to do the same. . Also, these things routinely take 3 hours at my base. So 3 hours x twice a year = 1 man day per airman per year. Multiply by a few thousand airman and that's alot of man days. If your base gets them done in 1 hour, your FACs are better than our FACs I guess.

[Ram]

...We can even do hand-release pushups...

Those are the same kind of push-ups your mother does.

[BitteEinBit]

YGBFSM. If that were the case this would be probably the "fittest" person on the planet.

Don't get me wrong, dude's a beast at the marathon, but this is not what a "fit" soldier should look like IMHO. Just because a run is easy to measure and cuts out bias pretty easily doesn't make it suitable as a single-component fitness test.

The tape measure doesn't lie either, and that way we could focus just on looking fit skinny rather than actually being fit!

You just made a point and then contradicted it in the same post...

You made a great point about "looking fit" vs "being fit" but then early on you talk about what a "fit soldier (Airman, Marine, Seaperson) should look like" in your opinion. How about measruing a person's fitness based on their performance instead of how you think they should look? How do you know that guy can't do 69 pushups and situps? Have you actually seen him try or are you just judging him by his skinny frame?

I've seen skinny dudes max out the PT test and I've seen fat dudes max out the PT test (minus the tape). That is the biggest problem with the fitness test, the Air Force assumes everyone looks the same and no one cares about actual performance (sounds familiar). The tape measure should be thrown out all together! Why? because if strength, power, flexibility, blah blah is important in combat, tell me how someone with a 32-in waist can pass the PT test by running a 13:36 1.5, 44 pushups and 42 situps, but someone can run a 10 min 1.5, 67 pushups and 69 situps and still fail the test because they have a 39.5 inch waist (yes I've seen people max the cardio and muscle assessment with that big of waist...it doesn't necessarily mean "fat"). I've seen people "fail" the PT test with a "passing score" because they didn't get the "minimum component" in one of the sections...thats right...fail with a score of 90!...thats why the Air Force changed it so you get 0 points if you get below the minimum component (yet they still put the times, reps on the fitness charts with a 0 next to it). How does that make sense to anyone?

Don't believe for one second that the Air Force cares about performance, flexibility, strength, agility for combat operations...lets be honest, most of our deployed AF brethren aren't out on foot patrols engaging the enemy in hand-to-hand combat (although many are). When is the last time anyone on this board had to run more than 600ft in the combat zone besides an egress from an aircraft?

The Air Force will even try to make you believe that the new fitness standards are about controlling rising health care costs...that too is a joke. If that is the case, with these new fitness standards in place, we should actually see a drop in health care costs...(in theory)...won't happen with all the smokers, dippers and drinkers we have in the Air Force along with the fattening fast food joints all over base. I'm betting the Army and Marines have the same rising health care costs...and they've had this sort of PT test for decades. The guy in the picture could (based on how he "looks" compared to how a "combat soldier" should look) could fail with a score of 80 (fails pushups/situps)...is he a health risk?

The Air Force Fitness test as it is today is a force shaping tool designed to have an excuse to kick people out for not meeting standards. It isn't a tough test, but people do fail it so it gives fodder to the boards. Once the Air Force has its numbers in order, the fitness test will change again...and then they'll just worry about just looking good again. I'd be curious to see how many of the RIFd personnel had negative fitness score quality indicators (as the Air Force likes to call it) on their records...

[Mike Honcho]

The Air Force Fitness test as it is today is a force shaping tool designed to have an excuse to kick people out for not meeting standards. It isn't a tough test, but people do fail it so it gives fodder to the boards. Once the Air Force has its numbers in order, the fitness test will change again...and then they'll just worry about just looking good again. I'd be curious to see how many of the RIFd personnel had negative fitness score quality indicators (as the Air Force likes to call it) on their records...

Boom goes the dynamite.

[Rifleman96]

You just made a point and then contradicted it in the same post...

You made a great point about "looking fit" vs "being fit" but then early on you talk about what a "fit soldier (Airman, Marine, Seaperson) should look like" in your opinion. How about measruing a person's fitness based on their performance instead of how you think they should look? How do you know that guy can't do 69 pushups and situps? Have you actually seen him try or are you just judging him by his skinny frame?

I've seen skinny dudes max out the PT test and I've seen fat dudes max out the PT test (minus the tape). That is the biggest problem with the fitness test, the Air Force assumes everyone looks the same and no one cares about actual performance (sounds familiar). The tape measure should be thrown out all together! Why? because if strength, power, flexibility, blah blah is important in combat, tell me how someone with a 32-in waist can pass the PT test by running a 13:36 1.5, 44 pushups and 42 situps, but someone can run a 10 min 1.5, 67 pushups and 69 situps and still fail the test because they have a 39.5 inch waist (yes I've seen people max the cardio and muscle assessment with that big of waist...it doesn't necessarily mean "fat"). I've seen people "fail" the PT test with a "passing score" because they didn't get the "minimum component" in one of the sections...thats right...fail with a score of 90!...thats why the Air Force changed it so you get 0 points if you get below the minimum component (yet they still put the times, reps on the fitness charts with a 0 next to it). How does that make sense to anyone?

Don't believe for one second that the Air Force cares about performance, flexibility, strength, agility for combat operations...lets be honest, most of our deployed AF brethren aren't out on foot patrols engaging the enemy in hand-to-hand combat (although many are). When is the last time anyone on this board had to run more than 600ft in the combat zone besides an egress from an aircraft?

The Air Force will even try to make you believe that the new fitness standards are about controlling rising health care costs...that too is a joke. If that is the case, with these new fitness standards in place, we should actually see a drop in health care costs...(in theory)...won't happen with all the smokers, dippers and drinkers we have in the Air Force along with the fattening fast food joints all over base. I'm betting the Army and Marines have the same rising health care costs...and they've had this sort of PT test for decades. The guy in the picture could (based on how he "looks" compared to how a "combat soldier" should look) could fail with a score of 80 (fails pushups/situps)...is he a health risk?

The Air Force Fitness test as it is today is a force shaping tool designed to have an excuse to kick people out for not meeting standards. It isn't a tough test, but people do fail it so it gives fodder to the boards. Once the Air Force has its numbers in order, the fitness test will change again...and then they'll just worry about just looking good again. I'd be curious to see how many of the RIFd personnel had negative fitness score quality indicators (as the Air Force likes to call it) on their records...

I agree with everything you have said. But one thing that people are not taking into consideration is that people with larger waists tend to have poorer health than those with thinner waists. By trying to enforce thinner waists the AF is trying to reduce current and future medical costs by "motivating" individuals to attempt a thinner waist or remove them from service w/o having to provide them with anymore medical benefits.

[nsplayr]

You just made a point and then contradicted it in the same post...

You're right, what I should have said is that this is not what a fit soldier should be. Fitness in the military is not and should not be all about running, or all about any one thing. A single component test, especially one like a run-only or waist measurement-only test only further encourages people to be "skinny-fat" where they can run decently, have a 32" waist, and couldn't back squat their body weight to save their own lives (or the lives of their buddy). Multi-modal fitness that makes you string together all your major muscle groups and do something functional (and yes, running is functional to a point), that's what we should be testing.

The Air Force Fitness test as it is today is a force shaping tool designed to have an excuse to kick people out for not meeting standards. It isn't a tough test, but people do fail it so it gives fodder to the boards. Once the Air Force has its numbers in order, the fitness test will change again...and then they'll just worry about just looking good again. I'd be curious to see how many of the RIFd personnel had negative fitness score quality indicators (as the Air Force likes to call it) on their records...

We had an outstanding Wing run on the taxiway this morning (the first of many to come I'm assured!) and it was hilarious to see all the people who fell out and finished behind the rest of their squadrons. Yes, we ran as squadrons and with guidons. Don't ask. Anyways, we said, man, there are your RIF candidates right there because we ran pretty damn slow and for less than 3 miles and people literally started falling out about 200 yards in...pathetic.

Edited November 8, 2011 by nsplayr

[Tank]

I agree with everything you have said. But one thing that people are not taking into consideration is that people with larger waists tend to have poorer health than those with thinner waists. By trying to enforce thinner waists the AF is trying to reduce current and future medical costs by "motivating" individuals to attempt a thinner waist or remove them from service w/o having to provide them with anymore medical benefits.

So you are saying that somebody like me, who is 6'2'' and 235 lbs with a 38 inch waist and good health should be equally compared to somebody who is 5'4'' and 150 lbs with a 32 inch waist? The reason I ask is because with today's Air Force PFT, we are equally compared and the other person will 9 times of out 10 score a better score than me just because of his waist measurement.

To me that is complete BS!

I am fine with the Air Force standards of testing 2 times a year but please get rid of the damn waist measurement!!

Edited November 8, 2011 by Tank

[Vertigo]

I'd like to see us go to a run only test. The stopwatch doesn't lie.

[BitteEinBit]

I agree with everything you have said. But one thing that people are not taking into consideration is that people with larger waists tend to have poorer health than those with thinner waists. By trying to enforce thinner waists the AF is trying to reduce current and future medical costs by "motivating" individuals to attempt a thinner waist or remove them from service w/o having to provide them with anymore medical benefits.

The Air Force has that theory, and they use 35in as the magic number for those with "potential"...but in my opinion (and I'm not a doctor, I only play one on TDYs) the "potential" for health risks in the future based on waist measurement is a joke. I would tend to agree that people with larger waists (I'm talking in the 45in+ range) probably do have a higher potential for health problems, but at the same time, I'd be willing to bet the majority of those 45in+ people who are MOST at risk also can't do 69 pushups and situps or run a 10min 1.5 miles. I realize there are some professional athletes (NFL linemen) who are the exception, but to say that everyone with over 35in waist is a health risk is just dumb especially if they are in the "low risk" range on all other components. They are no more of a health risk than the smoker with the 32in waist who can't max the pushups, sit ups, or run and barely passes with a 75%...but somehow those people aren't "identified" as high risk. I have the potential to get cancer...as does everyone else in the Air Force because humans get cancer..are we all health risks? Health care costs are rising for the Air Force not because we have a bunch of fatties, but because health care costs are rising for EVERYONE.

Like I said before, if rising health care costs are the rationale for kicking people out of the Air Force, then in theory, health care costs should start to decrease. But they won't. Not to mention health care costs for dependents. What are we going to do, kick people out because they have fat kids and a dependapotamus wife? Are they not health risks with potential costs? These cuts are about end strength and end strength only...this is just one way to justify the cuts. When we were at war, the Air Force didn't care how fat anyone was as long as we were able to support the manpower requirements.

I think we can better identify those with "health risks" by taking out the waist measurement all together...the weak swimmers fat and skinny will stand out. If a fatty is really a health risk, his/her score will reflect it without the waist measurement bringing it down...but it also prevents the skinny bubba from getting extra points on top of a min score JUST because he has a 32 inch waist.

Edited November 8, 2011 by BitteEinBit

[Day Man]

LOL @ dependapotamus

[AEWingsMN]

So you are saying that somebody like me, who is 6'2'' and 235 lbs with a 38 inch waist and good health should be equally compared to somebody who is 5'4'' and 150 lbs with a 32 inch waist? The reason I ask is because with today's Air Force PFT, we are equally compared and the other person will 9 times of out 10 score a better score than me just because of his waist measurement.

To me that is complete BS!

I am fine with the Air Force standards of testing 2 times a year but please get rid of the damn waist measurement!!

Well, In theory there is supposed to be a BMI trump card. Not that BMI is all that great of a indicator either, but it does fight for the tall guy in this case, where he should be allotted a larger waist as long as his BMI is still 25 or less and still scores all points for the waist measurement. The problem with that is that a 25 would be like the "max" if it was a graded event, but instead it's just the catch all for the tall guy, so as soon as you aren't 25 or less BMI, you instantly get the whole beat down for your larger waist size, not just a small fraction taken off for being 25.1 . The other issue with BMI is if you put on enough muscle, you'll bust through 25 as well, so you can't be a tall man who lifts too much, or you really are out of options. (this whole statement is only as current as the last time I read the reg, I do not guarantee it's currency as I cannot keep shoes from dicking with the regs.)

Edited November 8, 2011 by AEWingsMN

[FlyingBull]

Just about any 'solution' you come up with for determining health-risk, be it waist measurement/BMI/whatever, will always be screwing someone. We are an organization of 330,000 people. So anything you come up with is going to shit on someone that doesn't deserve it because there is no one size fits all health assessment.

I think we should just dump the waist measurement/BMI crap and just add those points to the push ups and sit ups. I say that as someone who benefits from the current system.

So any news on getting rid of the FACs or are those just rumors?

Edited November 8, 2011 by FlyingBull

[HeyWatchThis]

So any news on getting rid of the FACs or are those just rumors?

They are officially getting cut at Hill AFB and when I asked "Since Hill AFB is cutting them, that should mean the rest of the AF is cutting them" I was told that was an accurate statement....