Pope wing commander removed from duty

[capt4fans]

I must say, in my opinion Capt4fans, has by far the best avatar.

As I've written previously, I was in the same squadron (772 TAS) with the Pope CC. I can't imagine the John McDonald I knew 20 years ago behaving or doing the things I've read about in this forum. I guess I didn't know him well enough or time/command changes a person or both.

I will say that Col McDonald ...While I feel badly for the John McDonald I knew 20 years ago, I'm glad to see a bad commander removed.

Anyone who knew McDonald or was around him for any length of time heard about the "Christmas Party I put together at Dyess" And the moral of that story is that Col Mac needed a sponser when he got done with AWC in order to find his next assignment as an O-6. Well, he just happened to find the old WG/CC (can't remember if that's right) from Dyess when he threw the Christmas party and secured his follow on assignement. Long story short is that the party was FW&A at the highest levels (although at the time was probably looked at as a great job).

This is his only story of leadership that he can recite and only went to show me that his merit was based on when he was an O-3 and the fact that he threw a good party.

Peter Principle in the fullest effect with this bag of trash.

[Red Fox]

Well, he just happened to find the old WG/CC (can't remember if that's right) from Dyess when he threw the Christmas party and secured his follow on assignement. Long story short is that the party was FW&A at the highest levels (although at the time was probably looked at as a great job).

This is his only story of leadership that he can recite and only went to show me that his merit was based on when he was an O-3 and the fact that he threw a good party.

Peter Principle in the fullest effect with this bag of trash.

772 TAS was my first operational assignment. The WG/CC's at Dyess when I was there were Buckingham, Hart, and McGuire (sp?). Buckingham moved on to be the Pope CC, Hart the Little Rock CC, and I don't know where McGuire ended up. I PCS'd before he left Dyess. I can't remember when McDonald left. I remember a particular rote to Mildenhall in '87 where a bunch of us would have a noon basketball game and he would play. He seemed like a regular crew-dog then. I was naive about the politics and probably had rose colored glasses on that weren't fully removed until I was asked to fly a bad airplane in order to make an on time takeoff. I stayed away from the parties and such and focused on the flying. What you write is consistent with what I remember about Dyess. The airlifter's ball (I never attended) seemed to be a big deal in addition to the Christmas party. The navigators in my squadron seemed to try to do a lot of additional duties to get "ahead". But, once again, I didn't pay much attention to that stuff.

Another Dyess story, is that the 463 TAW was supposed to be the lead C-130 wing for Just Cause (Panama). The wing just had a squadron return from a Mildenhall rotation and told HQ MAC they couldn't turn the planes in time to support the operation. I'm amazed the Wing/CC and Wing/DCM (maintenance CC) kept their jobs. Once again, the priority wasn't the mission.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Red Fox

[Guest Lucky13]

for the good RUMINT

Cheers!

It would be hilarious if the Air Force times is using your RUMINT in their story.

Hilarious maybe, but definitely sad if that's the case.

As a side note, I heard from one of the chicks here that there was a recent situation with him in a bar (after not being responded to in a way he liked) pulling the "don't you know who I am" line. And, well, she didn't because she's a civillian friend of one of the girls in mxs. Apparently never reported, ridiculous if true.

[Guest Form 8]

Cheers!

Hilarious maybe, but definitely sad if that's the case.

As a side note, I heard from one of the chicks here that there was a recent situation with him in a bar (after not being responded to in a way he liked) pulling the "don't you know who I am" line. And, well, she didn't because she's a civillian friend of one of the girls in mxs. Apparently never reported, ridiculous if true.

I wonder if his wife/son live with him or in Virginia where they were?

[Guest Lucky13]

I wonder if his wife/son live with him or in Virginia where they were?

I'm under the impression that his family lives with him.

Don't quote me on that one.

[arg]

Another Dyess story, is that the 463 TAW was supposed to be the lead C-130 wing for Just Cause (Panama). The wing just had a squadron return from a Mildenhall rotation and told HQ MAC they couldn't turn the planes in time to support the operation. I'm amazed the Wing/CC and Wing/DCM (maintenance CC) kept their jobs. Once again, the priority wasn't the mission.

My understanding from way back “in the day” was that after the incident at Indian Springs in ’81 Dyess wasn’t invited to play in Special ops anymore. Which would include any opertation up to Just Cause and maybe beyond.

Pope, who had an outstanding SOLL/II program, did those missions.

CMIIW.

[Guest whyme?]

Red... The USAF has succeeded in weeding out all of the warriors from all Commands. All SQ/CC that take care of their people go and die. The butt lickers move up. Welcome to the new USAF

[Red Fox]

My understanding from way back “in the day” was that after the incident at Indian Springs in ’81 Dyess wasn’t invited to play in Special ops anymore. Which would include any opertation up to Just Cause and maybe beyond.

Pope, who had an outstanding SOLL/II program, did those missions.

CMIIW.

You are correct. The accident at Indian Springs was 6 years before I got to Dyess, but the impact was still felt. Dyess did not do SOLL/II, but started a SOLL/I program. I'm not sure how viable SOLL/I was.

Pope was the place to be if one wanted to fly the actual slick 130 mission. Pope was the lead wing for Grenada, Panama, and the first stateside slick 130 unit to deploy for the Gulf War. Pope also participated in major international exercises, like Bright Star (in Egypt). Dyess basically backfilled Pope. I did a lot of TDY to Pope to support the 82nd and JFKSWC. I also did a lot of airdrops at Ft Benning. My personal experience with special ops was to provide them a platform for training. I flew a lot of support training missions for them at Pope (HALO, Mackall AAF, etc.) and in AZ (SEAL teams practicing HALO/HAHO). Unfortunately, Dyess did not have a good reputation while I was there. There was much grumbling among the senior captains that MX ran the wing. I do remember how much emphasis was placed on the on-time take-off. Unfortunately, the poor legacy (through a bad Wing/CC) of Dyess still impacts the AF.

I want to finish by writing that though I did not think highly of the 463 TAW, I knew many hard working and well meaning individuals. They too were mostly frustrated.

[Chuck17]

Damn Red Fox, I feel like youre still in the fight because the stuff youre talking about is still going on all across the USAF. And no one has the guts to stop it all at once... we've seen embrionic attempts, but there is still a long way to go (I still wear blues on monday, I still have 10,000 CBT hours a year, etc).

We as a flying community have to put an end to it, but we can only do that a little at a time. I still FIRMLY believe that you can change the Air Force if you want to and can stick to your guns. But you have to start slow and small and work your way up... you have to have stamina. There are going to be 1,000 setbacks and "Shut up, Captain"s before you make headway... youll get labeled an elitist, a rable-rouser and a whiner. But you can do it.

Imagine all the USAF and all its associated queep and BS is a huge brick wall. No one has the power to knock down the entire wall... but so many feel the same way, they try. They push and push and push until they wear themselves out and give up.

You have to attack it one brick at a time. Just one. Win small battles, then win the war.

This thread is an example of a small battle won.

And it sickens me, this "Us vs. Them", Ops vs. MX, Shoeclerks vs. everyone who isnt a douchenozzle fight thats been going on since the Army Air Corps (apparently)... Im not saying "Why cant we all just get along?", I AM saying same team, same fight! FOCUS ON THE MISSION, one brick at a time gents...

Chuck

[Vertigo]

Chuck-

True... but it's hard to make progress when we're going one brick at a time and the shoes are replacing that one brick with another 3 feet section of wall.

[BQZip01]

Damn Red Fox, I feel like youre still in the fight because the stuff youre talking about is still going on all across the USAF. And no one has the guts to stop it all at once... we've seen embrionic attempts, but there is still a long way to go (I still wear blues on monday, I still have 10,000 CBT hours a year, etc).

We as a flying community have to put an end to it, but we can only do that a little at a time. I still FIRMLY believe that you can change the Air Force if you want to and can stick to your guns. But you have to start slow and small and work your way up... you have to have stamina. There are going to be 1,000 setbacks and "Shut up, Captain"s before you make headway... youll get labeled an elitist, a rable-rouser and a whiner. But you can do it.

Imagine all the USAF and all its associated queep and BS is a huge brick wall. No one has the power to knock down the entire wall... but so many feel the same way, they try. They push and push and push until they wear themselves out and give up.

You have to attack it one brick at a time. Just one. Win small battles, then win the war.

This thread is an example of a small battle won.

And it sickens me, this "Us vs. Them", Ops vs. MX, Shoeclerks vs. everyone who isnt a douchenozzle fight thats been going on since the Army Air Corps (apparently)... Im not saying "Why cant we all just get along?", I AM saying same team, same fight! FOCUS ON THE MISSION, one brick at a time gents...

Chuck

It should be noted that "shoeclerk" (or "shoe") is simply a term for a rules queep nazi that has a grasp on regulations (or at least THINKS he/she does), but not on the mission; he/she is interested in doing things the way the manual says, damned the outcome, at the expense of doing things in a way that works, that's productive, and does not degrade morale.

A shoeclerk, IMNSHO, is not just someone from the support or maintenance group. They can be a flyer, a commander, a pipsqueak Amn at Finance, or even a General.

Don't be a shoe...

<--- Providing the highest quality shit talk.

for that FABULOUS RUMINT...

...got anything on my boss ;-)

Edited June 26, 2009 by BQZip01

[ol-IEWO]

On a different subject, my father flew F-105s in Vietnam with the 388th TFW in Korat. He was shot down and captured in Jun '67. If one wants to read about real leaders, read about some of the F-105 commanders.

Roger that! I was in the 355th at Takhli and we had Wing CC, CV, DO and squadron CC's leading the tough missions. If you want to read a book about a leader putting his career on the line for one of the troops, read Col. Jack Broughton's "Going Downtown" if you can find a copy. He shares a piece of AF history with Gen. Billy Mitchell. The only times I experienced the type of commanders being discussed were when I was in non-flying commands and those commanders weren't even close to the clowns you're talking about. Is this prevalent throughout the AF or just AMC?

[Vandal]

It starts in the commissioning sources.

[outbreak]

It starts in the commissioning sources.

Truer words were never spoken.

[Smokin]

It's a sad cycle that builds on itself. Very few pilots want to be an ROTC instructor because it would take him out of the cockpit for 3-4 years and probably kill his career. Generally, only the Det/CC is rated and it's his retirement tour. You can tell the emphasis that the Air Force puts on the job in relation to other services. In the Marines, they send top guys to ROTC detachments. At my school, one of the Marine instructors came from being the senior officer instructor at scout/sniper school and afterward went on to be the XO of Marine Force Recon. One of the smartest guys I've ever met. I took two of the Marine ROTC classes because he taught them and he almost got me to join the Marines instead. If you want to try to break the shoe clerk cycle, take a job in ROTC.

[Guest Sandlapper]

Slightly off-topic, but relevant to the discussion...anyone heard anything on this? (link)

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/military...ng-cc-news.html

It's a sad cycle that builds on itself. Very few pilots want to be an ROTC instructor because it would take him out of the cockpit for 3-4 years and probably kill his career. Generally, only the Det/CC is rated and it's his retirement tour. You can tell the emphasis that the Air Force puts on the job in relation to other services. In the Marines, they send top guys to ROTC detachments. At my school, one of the Marine instructors came from being the senior officer instructor at scout/sniper school and afterward went on to be the XO of Marine Force Recon. One of the smartest guys I've ever met. I took two of the Marine ROTC classes because he taught them and he almost got me to join the Marines instead. If you want to try to break the shoe clerk cycle, take a job in ROTC.

AFPC's ROTC job openings page clearly says "NO RATED OFFICERS"...not suprising given the rated shortfalls these days. I understand the logic, even in a surplus situation w/ rated folks...Captains haven't met gate months, flying skills erode, etc. It might make a good IDE in-residence program if it was coupled with a funded Masters degree at select universities around the country...hmm - there's a thought. Kind of like the AOC deal at USAFA.

[zrooster99]

Kind of like the AOC deal at USAFA.

I think you're confusing AOC with USAFA academic instructor. The instructors (who teach in one of the usual college disciplines...math, physics, chem, history, etc...) get sent to get their masters to make them better teachers...I don't think AOCs get the same deal because it's not relevant to their job... Might be wrong, though. But, yes if we made the position more attractive, we'd get better people in it.

[Hacker]

Damn Red Fox, I feel like youre still in the fight because the stuff youre talking about is still going on all across the USAF. And no one has the guts to stop it all at once... we've seen embrionic attempts, but there is still a long way to go (I still wear blues on monday, I still have 10,000 CBT hours a year, etc).

We as a flying community have to put an end to it, but we can only do that a little at a time. I still FIRMLY believe that you can change the Air Force if you want to and can stick to your guns. But you have to start slow and small and work your way up... you have to have stamina. There are going to be 1,000 setbacks and "Shut up, Captain"s before you make headway... youll get labeled an elitist, a rable-rouser and a whiner. But you can do it.

Unfortunately, I don't agree.

When you get to the senior O-4 and O-5 levels, there are so many ways to become marginalized as an officer. All anyone in your leadership has to do is ensure you don't get the job you need, or don't get the OPR push you need, or don't get the PRF strat that you need....and suddenly what you think or what you stand for is just completely irrelevant, because you are not in a position to foster such change.

Rock the boat too much, and you're bound to piss off somebody...and all that has to happen is for a single SQ/CC, OG/CC, WG/CV, or WG/CC to not like your act, and you are done with having the ability to change jack squat.

I don't know what the right answer is.

I remember having Gen Jumper speak to my SOS class several years ago, and he started off by saying, "this is my little black book, and over the last 30 years I wrote down shit that I wanted to change once I became Chief of Staff....and that's what I'm doing right now."

So, I somewhat think the only feasible answer, if you as an individual really want to foster change, is to "play the game" until you make O-5 and are on some kind of Command track. Even then, that's no guarantee that you'll be able to change a damn thing outside your own sphere of influence. You are also no more than one "stand your ground" disagreement with the OG/CC away from getting fired and sent into the world of the passed-over-Majors.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

I think you must also look at the past leadership in context. History tends to highlight those that actually accomplished things, and marginalize or forget those that spent their tour in command worried about sock colors and zippers. Go back and read some history and you'll see the number of commanders and leaders that are mentioned by name...there's not that many when compared to the number that have passed through history. The point is, even in the "good old days", only about 10% of our leadership was worth a damn, and all the rest of them spent their command tours focused on whatever they needed to stay focused on to make the next rank or keep their jobs. Consider Robin Olds...that mustache probably earned him more than a few derogatory remarks, and his attitude and leadership style is probably what kept him from going beyond that one star. Basically, he didn't "fit it" with the careerist "check-your-boxes" crowd. In my 17 years in the military, I've had more poor commanders than good ones. Most were "satisfactory"...in other words, they weren't terrible, but they didn't inspire me either. They looked out for #1, kept their nose clean, and their actions were primarily focused on preventing them from getting fired. But there were a handful that I consider really top notch. That's the way it was, that's the way it is now, and that's the way it'll probably be for my kids should they choose to serve in the military.

[afnav]

Unfortunately, I don't agree.

When you get to the senior O-4 and O-5 levels, there are so many ways to become marginalized as an officer. All anyone in your leadership has to do is ensure you don't get the job you need, or don't get the OPR push you need, or don't get the PRF strat that you need....and suddenly what you think or what you stand for is just completely irrelevant, because you are not in a position to foster such change.

Rock the boat too much, and you're bound to piss off somebody...and all that has to happen is for a single SQ/CC, OG/CC, WG/CV, or WG/CC to not like your act, and you are done with having the ability to change jack squat.

I don't know what the right answer is.

I remember having Gen Jumper speak to my SOS class several years ago, and he started off by saying, "this is my little black book, and over the last 30 years I wrote down shit that I wanted to change once I became Chief of Staff....and that's what I'm doing right now."

So, I somewhat think the only feasible answer, if you as an individual really want to foster change, is to "play the game" until you make O-5 and are on some kind of Command track. Even then, that's no guarantee that you'll be able to change a damn thing outside your own sphere of influence. You are also no more than one "stand your ground" disagreement with the OG/CC away from getting fired and sent into the world of the passed-over-Majors.

I can ######ing relate to that one, brother. The wing king said he would back me up, and then let me die as he left for his new job.

[Herk Driver]

I think you're confusing AOC with USAFA academic instructor. The instructors (who teach in one of the usual college disciplines...math, physics, chem, history, etc...) get sent to get their masters to make them better teachers...I don't think AOCs get the same deal because it's not relevant to their job... Might be wrong, though. But, yes if we made the position more attractive, we'd get better people in it.

No, AOCs, at least for the most part, are part of IDE now. They go to school for 1 year followed by a 2 year AOC gig.

[Red Fox]

Roger that! I was in the 355th at Takhli and we had Wing CC, CV, DO and squadron CC's leading the tough missions. If you want to read a book about a leader putting his career on the line for one of the troops, read Col. Jack Broughton's "Going Downtown" if you can find a copy. He shares a piece of AF history with Gen. Billy Mitchell. The only times I experienced the type of commanders being discussed were when I was in non-flying commands and those commanders weren't even close to the clowns you're talking about. Is this prevalent throughout the AF or just AMC?

"ol-IEWO", I salute you for your service. Anyone who flew into RP-6 has my utmost respect. I can't EVEN imagine what that was like. What years were you at Takhli?

I've read "Thud Ridge" (as have many). "Going Downtown" is on my "Books to Read" list, but should be on my "Books I HAVE Read" list. I believe Chuck Yeager was one of the officers on Col Broughtan's court martial board and that the board fined him $1 for destroying government property. Is my memory correct?

First, I have flown in Afghanistan and Iraq and have my own combat experience (which was pretty benign). My combat time does not compare with that of the pilots of the Vietnam era or of the Gulf War. So, I'm not claiming to be an expert. This is my disclaimer.

This is my take on the commanders (SQ/CC and above) I have observed in the AF. The CC's that I served under who had combat time seemed to be much more big picture. Example, my 1st operational SQ/CC was a below the zone, "Golden Boy" who did not have much flying time and no combat time. He had been a MAJCOM/CC's exec as a 1LT (so I was told).

He was a nice person, but focused more on proper wear of the scarf than on proper employment of the airplane. I remember as a 2LT, my SQ was deployed to EGUN. I was in Base Ops on my scheduled day off (in my flight suit) trying to learn more about the European airspace system (OAT vs GAT, etc) and he walked in. He asked what I was doing and where my scarf was. He then told me he better not EVER see me again while not wearing it. I wasn't expecting an ATTABOY for studying (doing my job), but I didn't expect to be chastised for not wearing the scarf. To this impressionable (at the time) 2LT, he cared more about the scarf and less about flying competence. My next CC in that squadron was a good guy who cared about the people he led and a good pilot. He had flown AC-130's in Vietnam and had a different focus than the previous CC. Sadly he retired a Lt Col (may have been his choice) while the predecessor (the "Golden Boy") moved above and beyond.

I could list other examples, but this would become a book.

It seems to me that those individuals who have flown in environments where their life was at risk, where they weren't sure if they would see their wife and kids again, or where they may have seen a friend blown out of the sky have a different perspective. They don't seem to sweat the minutia (like a scarf) and focus on the mission and the people. They do this by setting the example. They excel as aviators and are demanding of their units. Not to be A-holes, but because they know the more prepared and proficiant their aircrews are, the more likely they will survive in combat. They also know you can overwork a person, so they focus less on the relitively unimportant (parties, base beautification, etc.)

I'm not saying that one has to log combat time to be an effective leader (I imagine there are many fine CC's without combat time), but I have seen a general difference between those that have and those that have not. This is my observation after 20+ years.

Thanks "Slacker" for welcoming me to the "Board".

I enjoy reading all the inputs and appreciate the forum.

[arg]

You are correct. The accident at Indian Springs was 6 years before I got to Dyess, but the impact was still felt. Dyess did not do SOLL/II, but started a SOLL/I program. I'm not sure how viable SOLL/I was.

Pope was the place to be if one wanted to fly the actual slick 130 mission. Pope was the lead wing for Grenada, Panama, and the first stateside slick 130 unit to deploy for the Gulf War. Pope also participated in major international exercises, like Bright Star (in Egypt). Dyess basically backfilled Pope. I did a lot of TDY to Pope to support the 82nd and JFKSWC. I also did a lot of airdrops at Ft Benning. My personal experience with special ops was to provide them a platform for training. I flew a lot of support training missions for them at Pope (HALO, Mackall AAF, etc.) and in AZ (SEAL teams practicing HALO/HAHO). Unfortunately, Dyess did not have a good reputation while I was there. There was much grumbling among the senior captains that MX ran the wing. I do remember how much emphasis was placed on the on-time take-off. Unfortunately, the poor legacy (through a bad Wing/CC) of Dyess still impacts the AF.

I want to finish by writing that though I did not think highly of the 463 TAW, I knew many hard working and well meaning individuals. They too were mostly frustrated.

No doubt the Pope guys had their shit together but I think the close proximity to Bragg didn’t hurt them being selected for a lot of missions.

Your comment on the “tail wagging the dog”. When I first got to Hurbie, which belonged to the Tactical Air Command, in 79 there was abso######inglutely no question on who ran the 1st SOW. The tail didn’t start wagging the dog here until the late 80s early 90s. MAC got a hold of us in 83, we (Ops) fought it as long as we could. We were asked one time if we could take off, do a closed pattern, then land and they would fix the plane, just so they could get an on-time take off.

It should be noted that "shoeclerk" (or "shoe") is simply a term for a rules queep nazi that has a grasp on regulations, but not on the mission; he/she is interested in doing things the way the manual says, damned the outcome, at the expense of doing things in a way that works, that's productive, and does not degrade morale.

A shoeclerk, IMNSHO, is not just someone from the support or maintenance group. They can be a flyer, a commander, a pipsqueak Amn at Finance, or even a General.

Don't be a shoe...

for that FABULOUS RUMINT...

...got anything on my boss ;-)

That is but one sub-species. I’ve got the “Shoe clerk Stiff-arm”, you know, the “you/we can’t do that” from guys where I knew their job better than they did. One of the last examples of that I remember was just before I retired, a MSgt bringing me some 781s that he said I filled out wrong. I damn near quoted the Reg to him on how to fill out the suspect area and he still said I was wrong and that he wouldn’t input them until I changed them. Went to the Sq pubs file, pulled out the book and read it to him. “That’s not what it means”. Had to take him to the SqDO to get it done.

[BQZip01]

So, I somewhat think the only feasible answer, if you as an individual really want to foster change, is to "play the game" until you make O-5 and are on some kind of Command track. Even then, that's no guarantee that you'll be able to change a damn thing outside your own sphere of influence. You are also no more than one "stand your ground" disagreement with the OG/CC away from getting fired and sent into the world of the passed-over-Majors.

How can you make O-5 and then "sent into the world of the passed-over-Majors"? I think insubordination of a pretty high caliber is about the only way you'd get demoted that far from Sq/CC...

:-)

"ol-IEWO", I salute you for your service. Anyone who flew into RP-6 has my utmost respect. I can't EVEN imagine what that was like. What years were you at Takhli?

I've read "Thud Ridge" (as have many). "Going Downtown" is on my "Books to Read" list, but should be on my "Books I HAVE Read" list. I believe Chuck Yeager was one of the officers on Col Broughtan's court martial board and that the board fined him $1 for destroying government property. Is my memory correct?

First, I have flown in Afghanistan and Iraq and have my own combat experience (which was pretty benign). My combat time does not compare with that of the pilots of the Vietnam era or of the Gulf War. So, I'm not claiming to be an expert. This is my disclaimer.

This is my take on the commanders (SQ/CC and above) I have observed in the AF. The CC's that I served under who had combat time seemed to be much more big picture. Example, my 1st operational SQ/CC was a below the zone, "Golden Boy" who did not have much flying time and no combat time. He had been a MAJCOM/CC's exec as a 1LT (so I was told).

He was a nice person, but focused more on proper wear of the scarf than on proper employment of the airplane. I remember as a 2LT, my SQ was deployed to EGUN. I was in Base Ops on my scheduled day off (in my flight suit) trying to learn more about the European airspace system (OAT vs GAT, etc) and he walked in. He asked what I was doing and where my scarf was. He then told me he better not EVER see me again while not wearing it. I wasn't expecting an ATTABOY for studying (doing my job), but I didn't expect to be chastised for not wearing the scarf. To this impressionable (at the time) 2LT, he cared more about the scarf and less about flying competence. My next CC in that squadron was a good guy who cared about the people he led and a good pilot. He had flown AC-130's in Vietnam and had a different focus than the previous CC. Sadly he retired a Lt Col (may have been his choice) while the predecessor (the "Golden Boy") moved above and beyond.

I could list other examples, but this would become a book.

It seems to me that those individuals who have flown in environments where their life was at risk, where they weren't sure if they would see their wife and kids again, or where they may have seen a friend blown out of the sky have a different perspective. They don't seem to sweat the minutia (like a scarf) and focus on the mission and the people. They do this by setting the example. They excel as aviators and are demanding of their units. Not to be A-holes, but because they know the more prepared and proficiant their aircrews are, the more likely they will survive in combat. They also know you can overwork a person, so they focus less on the relitively unimportant (parties, base beautification, etc.)

I'm not saying that one has to log combat time to be an effective leader (I imagine there are many fine CC's without combat time), but I have seen a general difference between those that have and those that have not. This is my observation after 20+ years.

Thanks "Slacker" for welcoming me to the "Board".

I enjoy reading all the inputs and appreciate the forum.

I agree, but it is all how it is put to the junior person. If it is a "you need to fix XYZ with your uniform" and is stated in some manner that is civil and non-threatening, it's no big deal. If the same person publicly berates you for 2 minutes, then they have their priorities effed up. I once had a zipper open and the squadron commander called me aside in the hallway and told me to fix it. I fixed it; no muss, no fuss. I doubt he remembers it but I thought he handled a simple problem in a simple, nonthreatening manner. That won a lot of respect for me.

That is but one sub-species. I’ve got the “Shoe clerk Stiff-arm”, you know, the “you/we can’t do that” from guys where I knew their job better than they did. One of the last examples of that I remember was just before I retired, a MSgt bringing me some 781s that he said I filled out wrong. I damn near quoted the Reg to him on how to fill out the suspect area and he still said I was wrong and that he wouldn’t input them until I changed them. Went to the Sq pubs file, pulled out the book and read it to him. “That’s not what it means”. Had to take him to the SqDO to get it done.

Point taken, original ammended

[JarheadBoom]

Unfortunately, Dyess did not have a good reputation while I was there. There was much grumbling among the senior captains that MX ran the wing. I do remember how much emphasis was placed on the on-time take-off.

Wow... some things never change.

Replace "senior captains" with "every AFRC crewdog and 2/3 of the AD crewdogs", and you've got McGuire today.