Commander's Review Board (CRB)

[Guest Rubber_Side_Down]

I've got a buddy coming up on a Commander's Review Board after hooking an 89 ride...does anyone know the ROE's on these things (i.e. how to best defend yourself)? Is he supposed to "lawyer up" and list every single action/comment/etc that may have played a factor in his failure, or is that frowned upon by those deciding his fate?

I've heard that the chances are slim that anyone will be reinstated after one of these, but does anyone know of someone who made it out alive? If so, for what reasons were they reinstated?

Any advice on how to fare better on these would be appreciated. We had some guys wash out when I went through, but (to my knowledge) none elected to do the CRB, so I'm out of good ideas. Thanks, in advance, for any help.

[MCO]

Depends a lot on who the commander is. When I was at Columbus, we had quite a few dudes get reinstated, but when talking to my friends that went to laughlin, they had basically 0. I'm sure this changes with commander, along with the best way to handle the process.

[Red Fox]

I've got a buddy coming up on a Commander's Review Board after hooking an 89 ride...does anyone know the ROE's on these things (i.e. how to best defend yourself)? Is he supposed to "lawyer up" and list every single action/comment/etc that may have played a factor in his failure, or is that frowned upon by those deciding his fate?

I've heard that the chances are slim that anyone will be reinstated after one of these, but does anyone know of someone who made it out alive? If so, for what reasons were they reinstated?

Any advice on how to fare better on these would be appreciated. We had some guys wash out when I went through, but (to my knowledge) none elected to do the CRB, so I'm out of good ideas. Thanks, in advance, for any help.

I was a T-37 flight/CC more than 15 years ago and was at Randolph AFB (as an instructor) when the T-6 was selected as the Tweet replacement. So, I'm a bit long in the tooth and may be out of touch.

My experience while sitting on a TRB (where we determined a stud's fate) and part of the Commander's Review Process was that we would look at the stud's training history and performance. Did the student have a history of failed rides (not just check-rides). Were the busted check-rides one item busts or multiple item busts. We also looked at the student's training continuity. Did he/she fly regularly and receive continuity with IPs? This stud is obviously on CAP and therefore should only be flying with a few IPs. Did the stud have personality conflicts with any IPs or any personal issues which detracted from training (like a sick child, etc.). Finally and most importantly, we would get the opinion of the Flight CC/ and IP/IPs to hear how many extra flights it would take to get the student up to speed and if they felt the stud could complete UPT within the constraints of the syllabus. That was key.

I had one student that failed his initial contact check, then his 88, and then 89. They were all one item busts due to bone-head mistakes. His daily performance was good, but he would get check-ride-itis. After his 89 bust, I want straight to the SQ/CC (good guy and Vietnam Vet) and told him this student can make it, but the CRB would keep him out of the jet for too long. He went to the OG/CC with my opinion and OG/CC reinstated the student on the spot. The stud did not get any 87 flights to "practice" and I told him that he had the ability to pass, but this next 89 was last chance. He didn't bust anymore checks after that (including T-38s). I had other students I had to give a thumbs down, which was in the best interest of all.

If your friend his having a lot of trouble (is he in T-6's?), it might be in his best interest to wash-out. Its hard on the ego, but if a person is not meant to fly then they should move on. Otherwise, its a lot of pain for the stud and the AF.

Best of luck to your friend.

[Hacker]

CRB results ebb and flow based on a number of factors.

Circa 2003-2004, it was practically impossible for a stud to wash out of UPT....guys were getting reinstated from CRBs regularly.

It is possible to lawyer up for a CRB, and have a skilled lawyer go through the student's gradebook and find every little "error" in training documentation. I know in my previous life as an AETC IP, we wrote gradesheets using wording that specifically made the grades bulletproof in such an instance, though, so YMMV as far as that route goes.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Hacker

[Guest Rubber_Side_Down]

I hear what you guys are saying. I was hoping there was some magical term or logical argument that he could use that would sway the WG/CC...sounds like it's more a matter of what year it is, how badly they need pilots, and who the current WG/CC is. I'm guessing the IP's made their remarks fairly bullet-proof. He had lots of issues with airsickness, and he had just cracked the code on that. Unfortunately, it wasn't soon enough to make up for the lost training due to being passive/active. He is an extremely smart guy--studied hard, very professional--and I've never seen anyone want this so badly. I feel terrible for him. Makes me feel guilty for getting through...and being half as smart, half as motivated, and nowhere near as polished of an officer as this dude.

[HiFlyer]

I hear what you guys are saying. I was hoping there was some magical term or logical argument that he could use that would sway the WG/CC...sounds like it's more a matter of what year it is, how badly they need pilots, and who the current WG/CC is. I'm guessing the IP's made their remarks fairly bullet-proof. He had lots of issues with airsickness, and he had just cracked the code on that. Unfortunately, it wasn't soon enough to make up for the lost training due to being passive/active. He is an extremely smart guy--studied hard, very professional--and I've never seen anyone want this so badly. I feel terrible for him. Makes me feel guilty for getting through...and being half as smart, half as motivated, and nowhere near as polished of an officer as this dude.

My history as a T-38 IP was very similar to Red Fox. Ignoring the bean counting of the training history (which is important...don't misunderstand me), the issue really boils down to this: is the guy gonna hack the rest of the program (and career) or not. Is this just a temporary issue, or is he clearly beyond the boundries of the program. Flying time is expensive, and every hour he eats up is one not available for someone else. Sure, with 50 extra hours and a dedicated IP, nearly anybody can get through, but that's not the idea. There's an expectation that you should be able to fly out the syllabus and succeed within a pretty narrow window. History says if you can't, you will probably continue to have problems the rest of your career, and that's dangerous...not just for him, but for the people around him. So, by the time you've gotten to the 89, you've already had several extra flights and lots of extra help. A magic term or clever arguement is not the real issue. Its the long view that the decision maker has to take.

Here's another angle I've told before. My T-38 flight had three Guard/Reserve guys that were all, frankly, terrible pilots. Mediocre to poor performers in every aspect, lots of extra rides, extra hours or instruction, hours of extra sim practice on basics, and barely getting through. Nice guys, but just not particularly suited for flying. Two were going to F-100s, one to an A-37 unit. We tried to wash them out for their own good, but couldn't. We finally asked the DO to write to their unit and recommend transfer to a crew aircraft to get some more time to "grow". Two units refused, one unit agreed and put their guy in a KC-97. Before unit upgrade training was over, one F-100 guy and the A-37 guy were dead. The KC-97 guy lived to a ripe old age. It isn't pleasant, and I hated to see guys lose their dream, but sometimes it's necessary to "call a spade a spade" and sit someone down to save lives!!

[Guest Rubber_Side_Down]

I've seen a few studs with airsickness who seem to fall into one of to categories: those who "wanted it so badly" they were a nervous/nauseated wreck when it came time to fly (manifestation of apprehension) and others had a legitimate physiological reaction to flying which I believe can be cured in the Baraney chair.

Based on what you've said, sounds like he's the former. In either case, if airsickness was the only issue, he may have a chance. If it was one of several factors, it may be tougher for him.

Think it was a little of both for this guy. He'd spin in the chair every day after a flight to keep the airsickness at bay. It went away for a few flights, but nerves + "wanting it badly" + a couple of hooked rides = downward spiral. We told him to relax, have fun out there, etc.--all of the b.s. empty sayings you use to try and get people to destress, and although he gave us lip-service that he would, I think every ride felt like an evaluation to him. He was very close to passing on a couple of those final rides. It was always one or two things--and different things each time.

HiFlyer--I hear what you're saying. There's a chick that winged in my class that nearly killed a few of us. Her lack of SA and flying skills were legendary; how she made it through three 89 rides and 70+ downgrades (...yes), I'll never know. I don't think my buddy is anywhere near this type of situation, but without being in the cockpit, it's hard to know for sure.

[Jughead]

how she made it through three 89 rides and 70+ downgrades (...yes), I'll never know.

Pictures would help make that determination....

[Guest Rubber_Side_Down]

Ha! Nooooo...

Grenade, dude. Short, fat, top-heavy. Kinda shaped like a grenade, now that I think about it...

[KWings06j]

We lost one in my class at Vance. From what I heard of it the CRB was nothing more than a formality before you were on your way to a new career field. He basically went in and was asked if there were any extenuating circumstances that should be considered. This guy was rock solid on the ground, always working and studying and had a good attitude. He just got nervous when he got behind the controls.

Good luck to him but he should probably start looking at what other career fields he might enjoy.

[Whitman]

We lost one in my class at Vance. From what I heard of it the CRB was nothing more than a formality before you were on your way to a new career field. He basically went in and was asked if there were any extenuating circumstances that should be considered. This guy was rock solid on the ground, always working and studying and had a good attitude. He just got nervous when he got behind the controls.

Good luck to him but he should probably start looking at what other career fields he might enjoy.

Ya but if we're talking about the most recent one, I bet the STRIKE didn't help his cause one bit. Solid guy and hard worker. Single item bust on his checkride (7U) which started this mess since he already burned his 88 on trans. If there isn't a little nervousness on an 89 ride, something is wrong.

[HerkDerka]

I've got a buddy coming up on a Commander's Review Board after hooking an 89 ride...does anyone know the ROE's on these things (i.e. how to best defend yourself)? Is he supposed to "lawyer up" and list every single action/comment/etc that may have played a factor in his failure, or is that frowned upon by those deciding his fate?

I've seen plenty of students get reinstated. The CR isn't always guaranteed kill, but your chances or reinstatement depend on your ability, attitude, and if there is some sort of inconsistency in your training. I've seen students go to CRs where I was sure they would get reinstated and they ended up getting shit canned and vice versa. It really depends on who the Wing King is.

With that said. Students need to be smart on their CR. "Laywering Up" is a dangerous technique. He should definitely list anything that feels put him at a disadvantage in training. But some students will over-indulge any excuse and make shit up to save their own asses. This includes calling out IPs. If he takes that course, he'll be flying with the same IPs that he called out. That doesn't make for a friendly environment and will follow you to phase 3 and beyond.

HD