Life Support

[BQZip01]

In my limited military flying career, I've been rather impressed with the maintenance at my locations (they'll call it broken when its broken, fixed when it's actually fixed, and fess up and bite the bullet if it's their responsibility), but I cannot say the same of life support (this isn't an indictment of anyone, just a query to see if this is a more widespread problem or just a few isolated incidents I've had).

Example 1: In our parachutes, there is a high-pressure Oxygen bottle that I was told as a BUFF guy "should always be above 1800 unless it's cold". Well, I'm flying out of Barksdale on a "cold" day in February and the gauge's needle was pointing below 1800 PSI. My instructor said, "that's ok", but I wasn't so sure, so I asked the life support to come out to the jet. They looked at it and said, "Oh yeah, if it isn't lower than the numbers on the gauge [not the tick mark on the scale], it's good to go." Well, with two people saying it was ok, I took it...like a dumba$$.

After the flight I wondered what the regulations/T.O. states about it. In our dash 1, it doesn't state the limits and I had to go over to life support. The answer is the gauge should read "in the black" in temperatures above 60 degrees Fahrenheit. For each degree below 60, it could be 2.5 PSI lower (in the jet, it was pretty cool, but not much below 50 outside, so the jet had to be a little warmer. Accordingly, it should have just been a smidgen lower than the minimum, not an 1/4-inch gap.

I told the supervisor and she said she'd talk to the appropriate tech and make sure the bottle was appropriately tested. It was and the bottle came back 50 PSI low. Imagine if I'd needed that bottle...

Example 2: Fast forward to my pre-checkride. Same kind of O2 gauge, but this time the gauge is well above 2200 PSI (the max pressure listed on the gauge). Since this is a precheck, my instructor, a patch-wearer, is simulating being an evaluator and not saying anything; just writing notes. I tell my instructor that I would call life support and have them check it out, but if it is ok and I'm wrong, we can save an on-time takeoff time for the crew. He looks at it and says it's my call, but he'd take it. Since he left the call up to me and I had the previous experience, I call out life support to look at it.

The airman comes out, looks at the gauge and says, "Oh, as long as it is above 1800 PSI, it's ok."

Internally, I'm thinking, "Then why the f*** do they have a maximum pressure listed at all...", so I say, "Can you get the T.O. and let's look at it?"

"Well, the T.O.'s back in the shop, but my supervisor is in the truck. I'll ask her and, if she disagrees, we'll check the T.O. But if we have to replace the bottle, we'll just replace the whole chute since that's faster"

"Ok"

She goes back to the truck and a few minutes later, they drive off without coordinating with anyone. About 20 minutes later (mind you, engines are running and we are burning fuel...) they come back with a new chute. "You were right. The upper limit is 2200 PSI, no matter what the temperature is."

We take off about 20 minutes late...

In any case, you are your seat commander and NO ONE should encourage you to fly on a jet you don't feel is safe.

Thoughts?

Edited June 27, 2009 by BQZip01

[brabus]

I've never had problems with life support. But I did have some MX guys try to "encourage" me to take a jet I knew had something wrong with it. I told them no way, I'm going to a spare. It took the Top 3 to get the Super to actually give me a spare. What a jackass...he could care less, it's not his ass in the air. That really pissed me off, but other than that I've never had problems.

[XL0901]

Example 1: In our parachutes, there is a high-pressure Oxygen bottle that I was told as a BUFF guy "should always be above 1800 unless it's cold". Well, I'm flying out of Barksdale on a "cold" day in February and the gauge's needle was pointing below 1800 PSI. My instructor said, "that's ok", but I wasn't so sure, so I asked the life support to come out to the jet. They looked at it and said, "Oh yeah, if it isn't lower than the numbers on the gauge [not the tick mark on the scale], it's good to go." Well, with two people saying it was ok, I took it...like a dumba$$.

After the flight I wondered what the regulations/T.O. states about it. In our dash 1, it doesn't state the limits and I had to go over to life support. The answer is the gauge should read "in the black" in temperatures above 60 degrees Fahrenheit. For each degree below 60, it could be 2.5 PSI lower (in the jet, it was pretty cool, but not much below 50 outside, so the jet had to be a little warmer. Accordingly, it should have just been a smidgen lower than the minimum, not an 1/4-inch gap.

I told the supervisor and she said she'd talk to the appropriate tech and make sure the bottle was appropriately tested. It was and the bottle came back 50 PSI low. Imagine if I'd needed that bottle...

Example 2: Fast forward to my pre-checkride. Same kind of O2 gauge, but this time the gauge is well above 2200 PSI (the max pressure listed on the gauge). Since this is a precheck, my instructor, a patch-wearer, is simulating being an evaluator and not saying anything; just writing notes. I tell my instructor that I would call life support and have them check it out, but if it is ok and I'm wrong, we can save an on-time takeoff time for the crew. He looks at it and says it's my call, but he'd take it. Since he left the call up to me and I had the previous experience, I call out life support to look at it.

The airman comes out, looks at the gauge and says, "Oh, as long as it is above 1800 PSI, it's ok."

Internally, I'm thinking, "Then why the f*** do they have a maximum pressure listed at all...", so I say, "Can you get the T.O. and let's look at it?"

"Well, the T.O.'s back in the shop, but my supervisor is in the truck. I'll ask her and, if she disagrees, we'll check the T.O. But if we have to replace the bottle, we'll just replace the whole chute since that's faster"

"Ok"

She goes back to the truck and a few minutes later, they drive off without coordinating with anyone. About 20 minutes later (mind you, engines are running and we are burning fuel...) they come back with a new chute. "You were right. The upper limit is 2200 PSI, no matter what the temperature is."

Funny you brought that up

Disclaimer: the only time I have had experience with parachute O2 bottleswas back in T-6s during UPT

I had similar discussions with my IP and MX many times on cold days. The TO says something about temp corrections (I remember 3 degrees but whatever) but the fact is that if it is cold there is no real way to know if the needle that is below the black is good or not. All of my solutions involved MX looking at it and deciding it was ok and my IP giving me the option (Good on him I say). I always took it with one exception when it showed above 2200 PSI. A little different on a 1.3 training sortie when we rarely went above 200. Anyway, I say good on you for making a big deal about it. Sounds like it is something few people bring up but obviously needs more attention. Not sure about where you are but our AFE chief is a flyer...could get a lot more attention with him.

[Chutdoggin]

Funny you brought that up

Disclaimer: the only time I have had experience with parachute O2 bottleswas back in T-6s during UPT

I thought all T-6's had the Martin Baker Seats?? Was there a bottle in the seat or are there a couple different systems out there?

[contraildash]

I thought all T-6's had the Martin Baker Seats?? Was there a bottle in the seat or are there a couple different systems out there?

It's in the seat. You check it during the pre-flight.

[XL0901]

I thought all T-6's had the Martin Baker Seats?? Was there a bottle in the seat or are there a couple different systems out there?

Yeah sorry...point was that it made the idea of "changing out the chute/bottle" virtually impossible.

[Hacker]

This kind of thing isn't specific to Life Support (now, apparently, called "Flight Equipment") people. You will find this sort of "I don't want to have to expend any effort to go out of my way to ensure things are correct" attitude all over the AF. Finance, Personnel, etc. Even some of the aviators you will fly with will be this way.

Handle it the same way you handled these two incidents. Nobody cares about you as much as you.

[BQZip01]

This kind of thing isn't specific to Life Support (now, apparently, called "Flight Equipment") people. You will find this sort of "I don't want to have to expend any effort to go out of my way to ensure things are correct" attitude all over the AF. Finance, Personnel, etc. Even some of the aviators you will fly with will be this way.

Handle it the same way you handled these two incidents. Nobody cares about you as much as you.

"Flight equipment" somehow seems a little less critical than "life support", but I hope the name change doesn't reduce standards, because perceptually, I have a problem with this...

[Guest SATCOM]

If you don't already know it, Life Support merged AFSC's with the Riggers recently. There's been some difficulties. To show my trust in their abilities, I walked into my LS shop and said "I want to jump a chute today that was packed by an Airman that just learned how to pack." They all looked at me weird (you know, why is this Chief doing this?) and then a young SSgt walked up and handed me a HALO rig. I looked at the paperwork, and sure enough he had packed it that very day. I looked him squarely in the eyes and said "Is this going to be the FIRST chute that you've packed, that will be jumped by someone since you have been trained?" He answered in the affirmative. Signed out an altimeter and proceeded to jump at 10K, with an opening altitude of 3.5. It opened beautifully and I landed without incident.

Got back to the squadron a few hours later, walked in (he appeared nervous) and in front of everyone advised that it was one of the smoothest freefall openings I ever had the pleasure of experiencing. His face lit up, and his demeanor morphed into one of confidence.

[BQZip01]

If you don't already know it, Life Support merged AFSC's with the Riggers recently. There's been some difficulties. To show my trust in their abilities, I walked into my LS shop and said "I want to jump a chute today that was packed by an Airman that just learned how to pack." They all looked at me weird (you know, why is this Chief doing this?) and then a young SSgt walked up and handed me a HALO rig. I looked at the paperwork, and sure enough he had packed it that very day. I looked him squarely in the eyes and said "Is this going to be the FIRST chute that you've packed, that will be jumped by someone since you have been trained?" He answered in the affirmative. Signed out an altimeter and proceeded to jump at 10K, with an opening altitude of 3.5. It opened beautifully and I landed without incident.

Got back to the squadron a few hours later, walked in (he appeared nervous) and in front of everyone advised that it was one of the smoothest freefall openings I ever had the pleasure of experiencing. His face lit up, and his demeanor morphed into one of confidence.

SATCOM, I'm keeping you on "speed dial"...

This is the kind of leadership I expected when I joined the Air Force:

https://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/index...mp;#entry214794 (read to page 8 where there are some GOOD stories of leadership, not just this d-bag.

[Guest Krabs]

SATCOM, I'm keeping you on "speed dial"...

This is the kind of leadership I expected when I joined the Air Force:

https://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/index...mp;#entry214794 (read to page 8 where there are some GOOD stories of leadership, not just this d-bag.

There definitely needs to be a "good leadership" thread. If for nothing else than to remember that it's still there (and to help young guys like myself).

[Guest Form 8]

I've never had problems with life support. But I did have some MX guys try to "encourage" me to take a jet I knew had something wrong with it. I told them no way, I'm going to a spare. It took the Top 3 to get the Super to actually give me a spare. What a jackass...he could care less, it's not his ass in the air. That really pissed me off, but other than that I've never had problems.

Too bad MSgt Crabass isn't the authority on releasing the spare to fly. A lot of senior Maintenance guys seem to only care about having that aircraft take off so it makes their stats for their matrixes/whatever look good. My favorite is when they bring up their job guide/T.O. and say, "Well our book says you don't need it." I honestly don't give a shit what their book says. I'm going to go with what the MEL in my MDS Vol 3 says and it's showing that I need that equipment to work.

[JarheadBoom]

Not here... which is kinda surprising, considering the MX leadership issues we have here. Maybe we've turned a corner...?

[BQZip01]

Not here... which is kinda surprising, considering the MX leadership issues we have here. Maybe we've turned a corner...?

Are you out of McGuire?

[stract]

I had a flickering chip light on my transmission last week during runup (Main module right side). For those not in the know, if the xmsn seizes, the spinny thing up top stops spinning and this usually proves fatal if you aren't on terra firma when it happens.

It would flicker on, stay lit for about 10 seconds, then go out. This cycle repeated 3 times...the system has a 30 second delay for fuzz burn, so if the light comes on, it's already been trying to burn a chunk of metal for 30 seconds. MX pulled the chip detector, cleaned it off (a couple small metal shavings or so I was told), and said good to go!

I run up again, and lo and behold there's a chip light! Goes on, flickers, goes off. MX says, oh that's ok, and at that point I gave them the finger (mentally) and asked for the spare.

Turns out it was a bad chip detector, but no fucking way was I going to take off with a flickering chip.

sorry, I guess this morphed into a mx thread...

[JarheadBoom]

Are you out of McGuire?

Yep.

I had a flickering chip light on my transmission last week during runup (Main module right side). For those not in the know, if the xmsn seizes, the spinny thing up top stops spinning and this usually proves fatal if you aren't on terra firma when it happens.

It would flicker on, stay lit for about 10 seconds, then go out. This cycle repeated 3 times...the system has a 30 second delay for fuzz burn, so if the light comes on, it's already been trying to burn a chunk of metal for 30 seconds. MX pulled the chip detector, cleaned it off (a couple small metal shavings or so I was told), and said good to go!

I run up again, and lo and behold there's a chip light! Goes on, flickers, goes off. MX says, oh that's ok, and at that point I gave them the finger (mentally) and asked for the spare.

Turns out it was a bad chip detector, but no fucking way was I going to take off with a flickering chip.

sorry, I guess this morphed into a mx thread...

Good advice for anyone who flies fling-wings.

We used to joke periodically about not worrying about main gearbox chips in the -53E until you could read a part number or serial number from the chip.

Until the day we pulled a main sump chip detector with a chunk of metal with a part number on it. Wasn't so funny after that...

[Toasty]

This kind of thing isn't specific to Life Support (now, apparently, called "Flight Equipment") people. You will find this sort of "I don't want to have to expend any effort to go out of my way to ensure things are correct" attitude all over the AF. Finance, Personnel, etc. Even some of the aviators you will fly with will be this way.

Handle it the same way you handled these two incidents. Nobody cares about you as much as you.

::cough:: ATOC ::cough:: While you're sitting in your non-air-conditioned E-model in Baghdad and its 150 on the flight deck with engines running and the loadmasters are sweating their balls off behind the plane...take your time guys...

[Vertigo]

::cough:: ATOC ::cough:: While you're sitting in your non-air-conditioned E-model in Baghdad and its 150 on the flight deck with engines running and the loadmasters are sweating their balls off behind the plane...take your time guys...

::cough:: AMD ::cough:: When ATOC has a working mog of 3 C-130s or one C17 and one C130 but AMD frags 2 C17s, 3 C130s, and an IL76 all coming in within a 30 minute window SOMEONE will have to wait. I believe the ATOC guys are probably sweating their balls off as well out the back of some other plane and will sweat their balls off at the back of your plane as soon as they can.

[Toasty]

::cough:: AMD ::cough:: When ATOC has a working mog of 3 C-130s or one C17 and one C130 but AMD frags 2 C17s, 3 C130s, and an IL76 all coming in within a 30 minute window SOMEONE will have to wait. I believe the ATOC guys are probably sweating their balls off as well out the back of some other plane and will sweat their balls off at the back of your plane as soon as they can.

Certain experiences, man. We had one guy refuse to do our ERO because of the "heat stress condition", even though it was under 100 and the sun was already down. Eventually got an ATOC Captain out on the ramp to clarify with the guy what hacking the mission means.

Oh wow, I almost didn't say it: I totally agree with the AMD thing. I'm sure we're all just looking through toilet paper rolls compared to what they see down there, but sometimes things just don't make sense.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Toasty

[Insubordinate & Churlish]

::cough:: ATOC ::cough:: While you're sitting in your non-air-conditioned E-model in Baghdad and its 150 on the flight deck with engines running and the loadmasters are sweating their balls off behind the plane...take your time guys...

I cannot speak for other ATOCs, but I can guarantee you that, at my station, you will not wait because ATOC guys are "taking their time." There are so many communication break downs with the pax terminal (ran by KBR) and the CSH (ran by the Army). It is absolutely not for a lack of motivation by the ATOC guys. Trust me, I hate standing there on the ramp wondering how much money is being wasted as you guys sit there with engines running. Furthermore, I hate thinking about the crew and pax sitting aboard the plane, armored up and sweating their balls off.

Somewhere, there is a flaw in the system that causes these delays. I don't know enough about the whole system to be able to get answers, I'm just a SrA pushing pallets. But trust me when I say that the ATOC guys are not "taking their time." We bust it for you guys, we want to get out of the heat too. I'm not being confrontational at all, but I think if we understood each others jobs a little more, things could go more smoothly and there would be less inter-AF bitching.

Certain experiences, man. We had one guy refuse to do our ERO because of the "heat stress condition", even though it was under 100 and the sun was already down. Eventually got an ATOC Captain out on the ramp to clarify with the guy what hacking the mission means.

Guys on this trip with me have told me that on previous deployments, they refused to work planes that were not in LSGI. I personally think this is professional misconduct (people need what you have on your plane, and it is my/our job to get it to them, no matter how hot), and situations like what you and I described give my people a bad name.

Blue skies,

PD

Edited July 3, 2009 by Port Dog

[BQZip01]

I'm not being confrontational at all, but I think if we understood each others jobs a little more, things could go more smoothly and there would be less inter-AF bitching.

2

[Herk Driver]

Guys on this trip with me have told me that on previous deployments, they refused to work planes that were not in LSGI. I personally think this is professional misconduct (people need what you have on your plane, and it is my/our job to get it to them, no matter how hot), and situations like what you and I described give my people a bad name.

Is anyone out there not going to LSGI for downloads?

[TacAirCoug]

::cough:: AMD ::cough:: When ATOC has a working mog of 3 C-130s or one C17 and one C130 but AMD frags 2 C17s, 3 C130s, and an IL76 all coming in within a 30 minute window SOMEONE will have to wait. I believe the ATOC guys are probably sweating their balls off as well out the back of some other plane and will sweat their balls off at the back of your plane as soon as they can.

Oh wow, I almost didn't say it: I totally agree with the AMD thing. I'm sure we're all just looking through toilet paper rolls compared to what they see down there, but sometimes things just don't make sense.

Honestly, everyone in the airlift business who transits Al Udeid should take it upon themselves to arrange a tour of AMD and the CAOC in general. There is no better way to educate yourself on what works, what doesn't, and why. I spent 4 months of my life in that prison, and while I hated every minute of it, I would have jumped at the chance to take some fellow crew dogs around the building. I'm not even going to try to defend the shit sandwich that gets handed to crews, because I know I handed down a few during my tour. I will say, however, that it is never by choice. Bottom line, if you have a little familiarity with what's going on behind the curtain, you'll be more useful (and helpful) to the guys pulling the strings, and when a request gets denied you'll have an idea why.

Back to the Life Support topic...While I was on active duty there were a few good LS troops who really knew their shit, and the rest were just taking up space. Now that I'm in the Guard, my LS shop is probably the best shop on base - they're proactive and always have the mission in mind. Great group of people back there. On the MX side, in two years here I've never had a troop tell me, "My T.O. says it's within limits." While on AD, if I went 2 consecutive flights without hearing that, I'd begin to wonder what planet I was on. Recently I brought an airplane back with a gyro that I "thought was about to fail" and told the crew chief why. The next time that airplane flew there was a new gyro in it. No questions asked.

There are a lot of reasons for the differences between the way AD and the ARC works, but I think a lot of it boils down to "pride in ownership." If you can figure out a way to instill that sense in AD troops, you just might solve a lot of problems. If everyone in the Air Force truly understood the mission and their role in making the whole machine work, you wouldn't have reflective belts, sock checks, or confrontations over PT gear.

[Guest Form 8]

That will probably never happen on Active Duty. If you get a bad reputation in your work section in the ANG/ARC, you're then blacklisted and that sucks since the old timers are there for life and have memories like elephants. In the AD world people PCS, Retire, Separate all the time so not a lot of people end up caring or taking pride in their work.

[TacAirCoug]

::cough:: AMD ::cough:: When ATOC has a working mog of 3 C-130s or one C17 and one C130 but AMD frags 2 C17s, 3 C130s, and an IL76 all coming in within a 30 minute window SOMEONE will have to wait. I believe the ATOC guys are probably sweating their balls off as well out the back of some other plane and will sweat their balls off at the back of your plane as soon as they can.

One more thing: The frag is like a huge puzzle where you have to adjust 50 missions worth of takeoffs and arrivals so that they all mesh up without busting MOG at any airfield. A change at one airfield could have a domino effect through the whole AOR. Sometimes you might have the whole plan done and one field is over MOG. When it's time to push the frag out to the wings, you may have to push it as is and hope that someone breaks. Not saying I'd take a gamble as big as your example, but planners are faced with some pretty tough decisions.

That will probably never happen on Active Duty. If you get a bad reputation in your work section in the ANG/ARC, you're then blacklisted and that sucks since the old timers are there for life and have memories like elephants. In the AD world people PCS, Retire, Separate all the time so not a lot of people end up caring or taking pride in their work.

If nothing changes, then you are correct.