F-16 VS F-15

[Whitman]

Most people didn't mention it, but I thought the chick robot was pretty hot/cool too until the tongue on a tail thing crept out of her @ss.

Ya dude, that was creepy. She reminded me of the southern belle, alien chick on The Faculty.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Whitman

[FlyingBull]

My girlfriend feels bad for your future classmates of your future nav class.

I very well might be one of his future classmates. Think your girlfriend could help me feel better about it by introducing me to some of her hot friends?

[Guest moostang]

My girlfriend feels bad for your future classmates of your future nav class.

16:58: Are there any questions on this Friday afternoon?

*Silence*

16:59:59: Moostang: Sir, I've read about what you just talked about on the internet, and it doesn't seem to be the same. Could you tell me why? Please take your time and go into as much detail as possible, without violating OPSEC of course.

How would that have anything to do with my posts?

I don't do that and hate when people do...

Where do people come up with this stuff? There's a few of you on here who have serious issues, why would you respond to a thread you don't want to answer? I figure you're just screwing with me, but I know there was interest in this thread until you guys tried to (successfully) change the subject. (troll)

...and the surface area thing, more surface area means more force to change the direction of an object, how is that difficult to understand? You try to make me out to be stupid... I suppose you few can be somewhat amusing.

Anyway, there are much better forums for asking these questions...

Edited June 29, 2009 by moostang

[FlyingBull]

moostang, some of your posts come off a bit.....nerdy. Thus making them easy targets. You then seem to lack the sense of humor to just roll with it when you get made fun of.

Just loosen up some. Have a beer. If Megapieboy can recover from his 'incident' and have a good time here, there is no reason you can't as well. Its cool to be excited about flying in the Air Force....its why we're all here. Just be a little bit more socially aware of who your audience is.

For instance, instead of being defensive about Buddy Spike's post you should have instead made a joke about it.

Rather than this:

How would that have anything to do with my posts?

I don't do that and hate when people do...

Try this:

Being a Spec Ops F-16TJ pilot means asking the tough questions

[Vertigo]

[Ram]

How would that have anything to do with my posts?

I don't do that and hate when people do...

Where do people come up with this stuff? There's a few of you on here who have serious issues, why would you respond to a thread you don't want to answer? I figure you're just screwing with me, but I know there was interest in this thread until you guys tried to (successfully) change the subject. (troll)

...and the surface area thing, more surface area means more force to change the direction of an object, how is that difficult to understand? You try to make me out to be stupid... I suppose you few can be somewhat amusing.

Anyway, there are much better forums for asking these questions...

Do you want a fucking answer? Here you go, broseph:

BVR: Discussing in detail is impossible because there's too much risk of talking classified shit.

WVR: It depends.

Happy now?

[Steve Davies]

Where do people come up with this stuff? There's a few of you on here who have serious issues, why would you respond to a thread you don't want to answer?

Moostang

I think that you are having a hard time here because you don't really understand your audience. In short, this is not the forum for that kind of discussion. Why? because it is an asinine topic. That's not meant as a slight against you, but to give some perspective on what people here make of such threads.

As you say, there are plenty of others where you can go and debate F-16 vs. F-15 with aviation enthusiasts and flight simmers. Just don't expect current Eagle and Viper pilots to take it seriously.

And if you are going to try and engage professional fighter pilots in such a discussion, use terms they'll actually respect you for trying to understand (specific excess power, min radius turn, corner velocity etc.).

This is a cool forum for people like me (and presumably, you) to learn about the workings and politics of the Air Force; just don't be under any illusions about it being good for discussing stuff that is either nerdy or operationally-oriented.

Cheers

Steve

[Steve Davies]

Oh...and don't ask me about "specific excess power" because I don't know what that means.

Interesting that you don't.

Ps is referred to commonly by fighter jocks when making comparisons. But, no doubt as the WGFP flying the WGASF, I can understand why such nerd talk would be anathema to you!

[Wolf424]

Anyway, there are much better forums for asking these questions...

That's what I like to see! Someone having a problem and coming up with an immediate solution to it.

[Guest MegaPieBoy]

Just loosen up some. Have a beer. If Megapieboy can recover from his 'incident' and have a good time here, there is no reason you can't as well.

Take it from me moostang....Multiple beers while cruising baseops makes 'incidents' much more entertaining for yourself! But wait....How dare you refer to 'the incident' bull? How dare you?!

[zrooster99]

Speaking of which, is anyone still making the t-shirts?

Thread Jack. Exactly my thought...mine's starting to wear thin...wore it with pride last week at a hotel in Bad Durkeim, GE (20 min west of Mannheim)...got a lot of interesting looks, but that could be because we were the only drunk american aircrew raging in their little town...we drank for 12 hrs straight and ended the night with a new copilot convinced there were vampires coming for us in exactly 20 min...quote of the evening "I can tell by the looks on your face that you, you and you are not with me, so I'll see you in hell"

Edited June 29, 2009 by zrooster99

[08Dawg]

Besides, Moostang, you, like me, are gonna be a nav. We'll never touch a Viper or an Eagle, so what's it matter?

[Spoo]

(Can't believe I didn't think of this sarcastic joke/comment earlier...)

If a T-38 can beat an F-22, anything's possible.

T-38 vs F-22

It's weird though, the T-38 has a lot less surface area.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Spoo

[Hacker]

Oh...and don't ask me about "specific excess power" because I don't know what that means.

It's that little line on the rate/radius diagram that says "P-sub-S=0".

Were you sleeping during that part of IFF? :)

[Buddy Spike]

We've already talked about this. You don't learn BFM from a book. It's not all about physics, wing loading, etc.

Well there is this one book... Starts with a 3... I think it ends with a -3... For Eagles, I think it's the chapter right after the one about how to properly greet your crew chief.

[Guest moostang]

Besides, Moostang, you, like me, are gonna be a nav. We'll never touch a Viper or an Eagle, so what's it matter?

While this is thinking well into the future; I don't plan on staying a Nav, so I wouldn't say never... The concepts I was asking about would apply to all fighters.

[Guest moostang]

Yeah, shack. I forgot about this picture as well. Here's me gunning an Eagle about 3 years ago. So what. It was basic 2v1 ACM, we had clean jets, and we hand-cuff'd the Eagle's like you read about.

Moostang, this is why your questions are stupid. All you air show groupies think alike. It's always about G's, thrust-to-weight ratio, and then the out-of-left-field random shit like "the surface of the bottom of the jet (???)".........

Think more about the capability of the weapons, radars, data links, counter measures, etc. Understand that each fight is not just a 1v1 cage match between two patch wearers with both jets completely neutral at the FO call. Think tactics, training rules, desired learning, threat replication, qual's/proficiency, etc. etc. The problem is you don't have access to the rigorous training nor the time spent in the vault to figure all that stuff out......which is why everyone here is telling you to STFU.

Ohh, and please don't start a new thread to ask if the Hog slows down and/or would theoretically stall if we shot the gun long enough.

I understand that a real-world encounter is far more complex than a simple turning battle. The pilot(s) and their ability to use their equipment to engage another aircraft matter much more than the aircraft type itself. However, the question was how an F-16 out-turns an F-15 in a dogfight. If you are implying that the F-16 pilot must have and use advantages other than turn rate to beat an F-15, because turn rate is not an advantage for the F-16, question answered.

It was a simple question, I may have overcomplicated it.

The surface area thing was brought up partially because I remember this:

I'm sure you all saw this already, but you can't discount anything in aerodynamics.

No, they should fire it backward for shorter takeoff distances...

Edited June 30, 2009 by moostang

[brabus]

the question was how an F-16 out-turns an F-15 in a dogfight

BFM is a fluid environment. All it takes is a "small" change in some aspect of the fight to cause one jet to do something which either hurts or helps the other jet's "cause." No fight will ever be the same. I think the problem is you're thinking far too much in a vacuum with constant variables. BFM can be described by two words much of the time: it depends.

[Guest moostang]

BFM is a fluid environment. All it takes is a "small" change in some aspect of the fight to cause one jet to do something which either hurts or helps the other jet's "cause." No fight will ever be the same. I think the problem is you're thinking far too much in a vacuum with constant variables. BFM can be described by two words much of the time: it depends.

Gotcha...

I have to put these things in a vacuum, because everything in BFM depends on so many variables. It's the only way to get a definitive answer.

A question for pilots about the realistic overall performance of these aircraft would be;

Which would you rather take into air combat against 2 Russian Mig-29s, an F-15C or an F-16C? Either with your choice of currently deployed weapons and equipment.

This should result in several answers.

[contraildash]

Note the the compact surface area of lead's facepalm....that allows him to bitch-slap some sense into you quicker than his two wingmen with their spread facepalms.

Technique only.

edited for picture

Edited June 30, 2009 by contraildash

[Guest MegaPieBoy]

Which would you rather take into air combat against 2 Russian Mig-29s, an F-15C or an F-16C? Either with your choice of currently deployed weapons and equipment.

This should result in several answers.

Pilots...sounds like serious answers for this serious question that could violate OPSEC.

[08Dawg]

While this is thinking well into the future; I don't plan on staying a Nav, so I wouldn't say never... The concepts I was asking about would apply to all fighters.

Hope the Air Force agrees with your plan. Or they might tell you STFU and color and get back to your INS and chart. Lots of surface area there!

[Guest moostang]

Pilots...sounds like serious answers for this serious question that could violate OPSEC.

True, which is why I said not to even in the original post, but I get mocked when I mention it...

[HossHarris]

...and the surface area thing, more surface area means more force to change the direction of an object, how is that difficult to understand?

wrong.

Bigger surface means more force, sure ... sometimes.

Also means more drag, usually more weight.

so if F=ma (remember high school physics), and you increase BOTH the force (your big ass surfaces) and the Mass (F-16 vs. F-15, etc.), what happens to the acceleration? Can't tell can you?

And that's just basic static high-school level math.

Aerodynamics, learn some.

You try to make me out to be stupid...

You're doing a fine job of that all by yourself

[Guest moostang]

Hope the Air Force agrees with your plan. Or they might tell you STFU and color and get back to your INS and chart. Lots of surface area there!

I wonder if it'll help the aircraft turn if I put the chart out the window?

Edited June 30, 2009 by moostang