Guest Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Gotta put someone in that seat... But think about it from the poor pilot's perspective. If they let you in the seat you'll want to talk on the radio and ask the them stupid questions and give them stupid advice and touch stuff. You know you would, you damn navs are all alike when it comes to trying to contribute to the mission and what not. The best part of a two seater would be the ability to bring commanders (especially ground commanders) up to see what is really happening on the ground.
Alpharatz Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Rainey, why don't you sneak back a few topics and help PBR with his paper? He could use some expertt assistance. ...................and keep "touching stuff" out of it. It ain't proper.........
tac airlifter Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 But think about it from the poor pilot's perspective. If they let you in the seat you'll want to talk on the radio and ask the them stupid questions and give them stupid advice and touch stuff. You know you would, you damn navs are all alike when it comes to trying to contribute to the mission and what not. The best part of a two seater would be the ability to bring commanders (especially ground commanders) up to see what is really happening on the ground. Bringing ground CC's up is a huge benefit and has really helped how we integrate with their operations. Having their boss sit next to you and see his guys from our perspective has gone a long ways towards developing TTPs and trust in the relationship. I'll also add that I've yet to see a single seat aircraft as capable as a multiseat aircraft. There is simply too much going on for one person to keep track; I've witnessed so many epic fails of dudes with one seat and one sensor and 1-3 radios thinking he can manage more than he can, or, whats worse, thinking what he has access to is the only piece that matters and needs managing. 2 seats is a minimum, and personally I'd prefer the other guy not be a pilot since pilots all like doing pilot stuff and that last thing we need is two people focusing on the same instruments. Back seater needs to be a CSO/WSO. 1 2
nsplayr Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) Bringing ground CC's up is a huge benefit and has really helped how we integrate with their operations. Having their boss sit next to you and see his guys from our perspective has gone a long ways towards developing TTPs and trust in the relationship. I'll also add that I've yet to see a single seat aircraft as capable as a multiseat aircraft. There is simply too much going on for one person to keep track; I've witnessed so many epic fails of dudes with one seat and one sensor and 1-3 radios thinking he can manage more than he can, or, whats worse, thinking what he has access to is the only piece that matters and needs managing. 2 seats is a minimum, and personally I'd prefer the other guy not be a pilot since pilots all like doing pilot stuff and that last thing we need is two people focusing on the same instruments. Back seater needs to be a CSO/WSO. From my perspective I agree. There are some very capable dudes out there who fly and fight the sh*t out of their single-seat jet, but when you have to aviate, navigate, communicate, weaponry, run a pod, and talk on several radios with potentially broken comms, it gets to the point where we can add more technology to a jet than one person can effectively handle. Of course there are single-seat platforms out there and in the past that have done it and done it well (No rainman, I'm not knocking a Sandy 1 here), but there's also a long history of the two-seat setup and I think with good reason. Plus the fact of the matter is that all the platforms we're realistically looking at here have 2 seats so that seems to be a foregone decision. +1 to the ability to bring the GFC, the J2 or J3 up in the jet with you as well; that can pay huge dividends toward how much they trust your decisions and advice while airborne. Edited July 14, 2011 by nsplayr
Guest Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Rainey, why don't you sneak back a few topics and help PBR with his paper? He could use some expertt assistance. Two reasons, he doesn't want my help or advice and he has no sarcasm detector so he would think my comments to nsplayer would be an attack on navs instead of making a joke. ...................and keep "touching stuff" out of it. It ain't proper......... Noted. That's why you don't want no damn nav sitting behind you.
Guest Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 I'll also add that I've yet to see a single seat aircraft as capable as a multiseat aircraft. There is simply too much going on for one person to keep track; I've witnessed so many epic fails of dudes with one seat and one sensor and 1-3 radios thinking he can manage more than he can, or, whats worse, thinking what he has access to is the only piece that matters and needs managing. You're joking, right? I'm not a profile gazer and I don't know your back ground but I am curious exactly what experiences you are basing this sweeping generalization on? 2 seats is a minimum, If two is a minimum would three be better? Triple seat fighter? and personally I'd prefer the other guy not be a pilot since pilots all like doing pilot stuff and that last thing we need is two people focusing on the same instruments. Back seater needs to be a CSO/WSO. Are fighter pilots focusing on instruments? Is that the "pilot stuff" you think "pilots all like doing"? You're still joking, right?
TAMInated Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 There is simply too much going on for one person to keep track; I've witnessed so many epic fails of dudes with one seat and one sensor and 1-3 radios thinking he can manage more than he can, or, whats worse, thinking what he has access to is the only piece that matters and needs managing. 2 seats is a minimum, and personally I'd prefer the other guy not be a pilot since pilots all like doing pilot stuff and that last thing we need is two people focusing on the same instruments. Back seater needs to be a CSO/WSO.
SocialD Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 If two is a minimum would three be better? Triple seat fighter? Why not four or five!
Alpharatz Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 Two reasons, he doesn't want my help or advice and he has no sarcasm detector so he would think my comments to nsplayer would be an attack on navs instead of making a joke. Noted. That's why you don't want no damn nav sitting behind you. Well, um...bit embarrassing here....I was actually thinking of two beautiful babes..form fitting flying suits...BUT no accounting for taste....read a few of the "more obscure" passages in St. Exupery?...single seat fighter....Anyway PBR's latest screed got the boot...As far as multi versus single place airplanes....Large ego's working alone can come up with some interesting decisions..small ego's maybe worse...esp. when worn out..hungry...shot up....sometimes two minds (or more) are better than one..Probably going to be a moot point....The greatest stick in the world will turn out to be some brilliant computer genius who ravages the whole system from his basement munching on Cheetos. Or somebody on the night shift in Vegas. .........don't jabber too much...nice make-up...friendly....
Smokin Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 I'll also add that I've yet to see a single seat aircraft as capable as a multiseat aircraft. There is simply too much going on for one person to keep track; I've witnessed so many epic fails of dudes with one seat and one sensor and 1-3 radios thinking he can manage more than he can, or, whats worse, thinking what he has access to is the only piece that matters and needs managing. 2 seats is a minimum, and personally I'd prefer the other guy not be a pilot since pilots all like doing pilot stuff and that last thing we need is two people focusing on the same instruments. Back seater needs to be a CSO/WSO. Wow, really? If you were newer around here I'd say that you were just trolling, but the sad part is that I think you're serious. There are so many things wrong with this statement that I don't even know where to begin. Maybe if I had two or three more people helping me type on this keyboard that would help... each person could take their own row of keys so no one is looking at the same letter at the same time... 1
TAMInated Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 (edited) Maybe if I had two or three more people helping me type on this keyboard that would help... each person could take their own row of keys so no one is looking at the same letter at the same time... CRM is AWESOME! Edited July 15, 2011 by TAMInated
busdriver Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 The one vs two seat fighter argument always makes me smile. I'd get lonely flying alone, at least without a gunner anyways.
TAMInated Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 The one vs two seat fighter argument always makes me smile. I'd get lonely flying alone, at least without a gunner anyways. Alone, yes. Lonely? Nope.
busdriver Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 Who the hell are you gonna BS with in a comm jamming environment? There's more than one reason for radio discipline.
TAMInated Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 No time for BS, there is (was) simply too much going on for one person to keep track; I was too busy failing epically trying to use my pod and 1-3 radios and thinking I could manage more than I really could.
Guest Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 We can't all be fighter pilots. $5, payable at the trough next time you're at Nellis, for posting her picture.
ClearedHot Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 $5, payable at the trough next time you're at Nellis, for posting her picture. Done, it was worth it to stir the pot!
tac airlifter Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 LOL Those pictures would be a good response if I were a herbivore, but I'm not. I've yet to work with a fighter who has the level of SA that a gunship or Apache brings, although strike eagles often come close and they are the users #1 choice if we're forced to use fast movers. I'll pass on the rest of this debate because there is simply no way to have it on the internet as this is not an appropriate forum to share my experiences. Suffice to say I am firmly convinced that two average guys with great CRM will out-perform one above average guy 9 times out of 10; couple that with an aircraft who has more than 1+30 playtime (or 0+30 for -16s) and you've got a serious asset.
Guest Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 Those pictures would be a good response if I were a herbivore, but I'm not. You're not? What are you then? You seem to think like one. You at least seem to think like someone who doesn't have any single seat experience to use as comparison to your other non-herbivore experience. I've yet to work with a fighter who has the level of SA that a gunship or Apache brings, That's unfortunate. Hopefully it's not standard. It didn't used to be but perhaps all the SA enhancing technology added to some platforms over the past 5 years has made them step backwards...at least according to you. I only have six sorties in the AC-130 and a dozen or so in the Apache (only five of them were Longbow sorties) and I didn't see such an SA or general capability gap vs my single seat experience. Maybe your single seat experience that you are using to compare your helo and Gunship experience was different than mine. I'll have to let the 422 A-10 guys know the helmet sight they showed me (Anyone else seen this fucking magic? It is awesome and you can wear your NVGs and you're not limited to a dark visor) that the F-22 guys now want to use instead of the JHMCS is a piece of shit SA sink and they should give whatever resources they're spending on that to the Gunships and Apaches. It could be possible that your SA might be a little less than you think it is, but probably not. although strike eagles often come close and they are the users #1 choice if we're forced to use fast movers. Those guys are good but that is definitely news to me. Admittedly, I've been out of the game for a couple years so who knows. I'll pass on the rest of this debate because there is simply no way to have it on the internet as this is not an appropriate forum to share my experiences. Fair enough. I think I know what you're talking about but not sure. Luckily, I have a little experience of my own and it is enough to know what you're saying used to be bullshit. Suffice to say I am firmly convinced that two average guys with great CRM will out-perform one above average guy 9 times out of 10; couple that with an aircraft who has more than 1+30 playtime (or 0+30 for -16s) and you've got a serious asset. Not sure what missions or aircraft you're talking about here. Can you be a little more specific without compromising anything? Also not sure what you consider average and above average. 90% is pretty high. I think you might be a bit over your head on this one. But maybe not. Done, it was worth it to stir the pot! More tha stir the pot. I threw up. A little at first but then a lot more when I accidently got a second look as I was trying to bail out of that post.
busdriver Posted July 16, 2011 Posted July 16, 2011 (edited) (Anyone else seen this fucking magic? It is awesome and you can wear your NVGs and you're not limited to a dark visor) Just listening to an A-10 buddy tell me about it was enough to make me jealous. EDIT: It'd bad ass for a CSARTF Edited July 16, 2011 by busdriver
Majestik Møøse Posted July 16, 2011 Posted July 16, 2011 Are fighter pilots focusing on instruments? Is that the "pilot stuff" you think "pilots all like doing"? You're still joking, right? What you guys call Admin is our entire world. Lots of mobility pilots don't realize that or won't admit it. I love my squadron, I love my jet, and I think I'm pretty good at flying it, but I'm not delusional. The guys in my UPT class who went to fighters are light-years beyond me now. I'm comfortable enough with my life to admit that. Some will get very pissy about this.
nsplayr Posted July 16, 2011 Posted July 16, 2011 What you guys call Admin is our entire world. Lots of mobility pilots don't realize that or won't admit it. I love my squadron, I love my jet, and I think I'm pretty good at flying it, but I'm not delusional. The guys in my UPT class who went to fighters are light-years beyond me now. I'm comfortable enough with my life to admit that. Some will get very pissy about this. Some of this is true and some herbivores get butt-hurt, but not every "heavy" is hauling trash from A to B. Based on knowing tacairlifter as an acquaintance, the platform he flies is neither a jet or a trash hauler so there is room for non-jet pilots who get down in the weeds of a mission where actually flying the plane is a secondary concern. What you fly doesn't necessarily validate opinions one way or another, but I can see where he's coming from based on what I assume his experiences are. I somewhat agree with the thrust of what he's saying (sts) WRT two heads are better than one especially with all the technology/radios/sensor/data stream sh*t we're strapping on jets, notably disagreeing with the idea that mudhens are the preferred CAS jet... Anyone else seen this fucking magic? It is awesome and you can wear your NVGs and you're not limited to a dark visor I'm guessing you speak of Scorpion HMCS?
Majestik Møøse Posted July 16, 2011 Posted July 16, 2011 Some of this is true and some herbivores get butt-hurt, but not every "heavy" is hauling trash from A to B. Based on knowing tacairlifter as an acquaintance, the platform he flies is neither a jet or a trash hauler so there is room for non-jet pilots who get down in the weeds of a mission where actually flying the plane is a secondary concern. Hey man I totally agree. There are lots of heavy dudes out there doing great things. I was just noting that there are quite a few heavy guys out there who can't (or choose not to) see much outside their world.
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