AF Light Air Support Aircraft

[tac airlifter]

Say experience.

SNC is the best contractor I've worked with. I have experience with several on multiple platforms.

[Winchester]

SNC is the best contractor I've worked with. I have experience with several on multiple platforms.

rog. Its about 50/50 with my experience with them on multiple platforms as well. The bad times just stick out more than the good.

[Spur38]

The Light Air Support Competition – The Facts

On Dec. 22, 2011, the United States Air Force awarded a contract for aircraft, training and support for its Light Air Support (LAS) program to Sparks, Nev.-based Sierra Nevada Corporation (SNC). In the Request For Proposal, the U.S. Air Force specifically sought a non-developmental, in-production light air support aircraft. The airplane to be provided under the contract is the Embraer A-29 Super Tucano.

The other main contender for this contract, Hawker Beechcraft, of Wichita, Kan., and its prototype aircraft, the AT-6, was disqualified by the Air Force in November 2011. As the Government Accountability Office (GAO) stated, the USAF “conducted discussions with those offerors in the competitive range from April 8 until September 23, 2011. After reviewing HBDC’s responses to issues raised during discussions, the Air Force concluded that HBDC had not adequately corrected deficiencies in its proposal.” Since contract award, Hawker Beechcraft has been fighting the USAF decision – first to the GAO and now in the US Court of Federal Claims – and waging a misinformation campaign about the winning aircraft.

CLAIM: Hawker Beechcraft says the U.S. Air Force made a “fundamentally flawed decision” in awarding the LAS contract to SNC and the A-29 Super Tucano.

FACT: The Air Force selected a proven platform in the A-29 Super Tucano that is currently in service with six air forces worldwide. The AT-6, on the other hand, is a developmental aircraft, with no planes currently flying in any air force in the world. The U.S. Air Force disqualified Hawker Beechcraft from the LAS competition because its plane was too risky. According to the GAO, the Air Force concluded that, “multiple deficiencies and significant weaknesses found in [Hawker Beechcraft’s] proposal make it technically unacceptable and results in unacceptable mission capability risk.”

CLAIM: Hawker Beechcraft says that awarding the LAS contract to SNC results in the loss of 1,400 U.S. jobs

FACT: Only two prototype AT-6 aircraft are in existence. The AT-6 is not currently in production and does not support any U.S. manufacturing jobs. SNC’s fulfillment of the LAS contract will support approximately the same number of U.S. jobs as Hawker Beechcraft says they would have. Specifically, 50 + new high tech jobs will be created in Jacksonville, Fla., where the A-29 Super Tucano will be made and another 1,200-plus jobs across the U.S. will be supported as a result of the LAS contract.

CLAIM: The Super Tucano will be manufactured by “Brazilian labor and flown to the U.S.”

FACT: The A-29 Super Tucano will be built in America. Embraer will make the plane at a new production facility in Jacksonville, Fla. Over 88 percent of the dollar value of the A-29 Super Tucano comes from components supplied by U.S. companies or countries that qualify under the Buy America Act. No new jobs are being created in Brazil as a result of this contract.

CLAIM: The Super Tucano “costs over 25% more” than the Hawker Beechcraft AT-6.

FACT: Hawker Beechcraft has no insight into the bid provided to the U.S. Air Force by SNC and therefore has no credible basis from which to make such a statement. Unlike the AT-6, the A-29 Super Tucano has more than seven years of real-world combat and training experience behind it. This means that its operational costs are known and that all costly development issues related to weapons load, maneuverability and operations have already been worked out.

CLAIM: Hawker Beechcraft says it has delivered 740 AT-6 aircraft.

FACT: Hawker Beechcraft has neither sold nor delivered a single AT-6 aircraft. The company is deliberately confusing its T-6 trainer with the still-in-development AT-6. The U.S. Air Force specifically sought a non-developmental, in-production light attack aircraft for its LAS program. The AT-6 remains today a prototype aircraft. Hawker Beechcraft has been attempting to rework its trainer with a larger engine, intelligence/surveillance/reconnaissance (ISR) technology, and weapons in order to meet the LAS requirements. Meanwhile, more than 150 A-29 Super Tucanos are in use around the world today performing ISR and security missions. This fact is undisputed.

CLAIM: The AT-6 performs better on key combat criteria.

FACT: Only the A-29 Super Tucano has actually flown in combat. More significantly, only the A-29 was built from the ground up to perform counterinsurgency and light air support operations. The A-29 is larger in size allowing it to make full use of the 1,600-hp engine without power limitations due to torque. It sits higher off the ground and has a broader stance, increasing stability on unprepared airfields. The A-29’s longer tail section increases longitudinal stability and provides exceptional accuracy for the delivery of weapons.

Only the A-29 delivery system is specifically designed with the five NATO hard points for external stores, translating into maximum operational flexibility for the war fighters in the theater. The AT-6 carries no munitions in its native configuration. This is a critical difference. The A-29 also is munitions-certified with over 130 operational external load configurations. The AT-6 is not yet munitions-certified.

CLAIM: The U.S. Air Force decision process did not include a hands-on evaluation of the A-29’s flight handling characteristics.

FACT: Both the A-29 Super Tucano and the AT-6 were subject to a rigorous fly-off / flight evaluation in New Mexico in January 2011. The U.S. Air Force identified serious technical deficiencies with the AT-6 which ultimately led to the aircraft’s disqualification from the LAS competition in November 2011.

CLAIM: The logistic support system for the AT-6 airframe and mission systems is in place and paid for today.

FACT: The AT-6 is a developmental aircraft. With only two prototypes in existence, it has never been in production. Hawker Beechcraft is once again claiming elements of its T-6 program as part of the AT-6 offering. Only the A-29 Super Tucano, with more than 150 aircraft in service in six air forces around the world, has an established logistical / mission support system in place.

CLAIM: Hawker Beechcraft is an American company.

FACT: Hawker Beechcraft is jointly owned by Onex, a Canadian private equity firm, and by Goldman Sachs, the investment bank that in 2008 received a $10 billion bailout from the U.S. government. The Hawker brand was invented in the United Kingdom by British Aerospace and even touts itself as one of “Britain’s best-known performance brands.” The AT-6 is based on a design licensed from the Swiss company Pilatus.

CLAIM: We should be creating jobs in America, not outsourcing them to other countries.

FACT: Since 2007, Hawker Beechcraft has been shifting production and employment from their headquarters in Kansas to Chihuahua, Mexico. According to recent news articles (e.g., Aviation Week Nov. 4, 2011 and the Wall Street Journal Jan. 31, 2012), Hawker Beechcraft is now carrying $2.4 billion in debt with $1.4 billion of it coming due in the next 24 months. These financial and competitive pressures seem to be driving the move to Mexico and the resulting layoff of thousands of U.S. workers. During this process, Hawker Beechcraft has extolled the talents of the company’s Mexican workforce. In a February 2011 Hawker Beechcraft press release announcing the opening of the company’s second facility in Mexico, Hawker CEO Bill Boisture said: “We have seen a high level of quality and craftsmanship from the country’s skilled workforce and have great confidence in their ability to assume additional responsibilities in the manufacturing process.” Hawker has a third facility planned for Mexico.

Sierra Nevada Corporation and its team member Embraer are both financially and technically very strong and growing companies that are investing in the U.S. SNC is the Top Woman-Owned Federal Contractor in the U.S. and is ranked among America’s fastest growing private companies. Founded in 1963, SNC employs over 2,100 people in 31 locations in 16 states. It is also continuing to create new jobs in the U.S., while supporting thousands of American jobs through its significant outsourcing efforts in the U.S. SNC is privately held and 100 percent U.S.-owned.

Embraer has been in the U.S. for more than 30 years and currently employs 800 people at U.S. locations in Ft. Lauderdale and Melbourne, Fla.; Nashville, Tenn.; Mesa, Ariz.; Minneapolis, Minn.; and Windsor Locks, Conn. Embraer recently shifted global operations for its Business Jet business from Brazil to Melbourne, Fla., marking a major investment in the United States. A new production facility, recently opened in Melbourne, is creating 200 engineering and technical jobs in an area hard-hit by the winding down of the Space Shuttle program. The opening of the Jacksonville, Fla. manufacturing facility for the A-29 Super Tucano will mark a similarly significant U.S. investment.

CLAIM: Embraer is owned by the Brazilian government.

FACT: Embraer is a publicly traded company listed on the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE: ERJ). The Brazilian government has no ability to interfere with the company’s provision of aircraft under the LAS contract.

[Day Man]

CLAIM: Which bear is best?

FACT: Black bears.

Edited June 15, 2012 by day man

[Winchester]

Bears beat Battlestar Galactica

[Day Man]

Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica

FIFY

[Nineline]

Didn't see this posted yet... looks like Hawker Beech thought they would have a better chance of a re-attack bid if the AT-6 was already in production. https://www.aopa.org/...&WT.mc_sect=gan

Also, I don't know how HB will put a positive spin on the AT-6 if they are indeed bought out by the Chinese: https://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2012/120710hawker-negotiates-with-china-suitor.html?WT.mc_id=120713epilot&WT.mc_sect=gan

-9-

Edited July 15, 2012 by Nineline

[Surf70]

Air Force Defends Light Air Support Contract Award: The Air Force on Monday defended its decision to award the Light Air Support contract to the team of Sierra Nevada and Embraer and not to Beechcraft. "We are confident that this best-value decision is well supported and that the offerors' proposals were fully and fairly evaluated consistent with the evaluation criteria in the solicitation," service spokesperson Ed Gulick told the Daily Report on March 11. Beechcraft on March 8 lodged a protest with the Government Accountability Office over the Air Force's Feb. 27 selection of the Sierra Nevada/Embraer A-29 light-attack airplane to be the LAS platform instead of Beechcraft's AT-6. Beechcraft is challenging the Air Force's assertion that the A-29 represents the best value. GAO must decide on the merits of Beechcraft's complaint by June 17, according to the office's website. Gulick noted that the Air Force assembled "a new evaluation team, internal and external advisors, and a new source-selection authority" for this competition, which came after the service terminated the previous source selection of the A-29 due to a Beechcraft protest and the Air Force discovering deficiencies in its source-selection documentation.

Which is better? A-29 or the AT-6?

[HU&W]

Which is better? A-29 or the AT-6?

Depends.

Do you plan to fly it into combat? A-29

Do you plan to fly from dirt runways? A-29

Do you prefer built-in guns over gun pods? A-29

Do you prefer a proven platform over a prototype design? A-29

Do you want something that's easy for T-6 FAIPs to transition to? AT-6

Are you a congressman who wants to funnel money to Beechcraft? AT-6

BL: The A-29 is a proven aircraft designed for light strike that you can do training in. The AT-6 is a developmental aircraft designed for training that you can do some light strike in.

ETA: There's a 19 page thread on this topic.

Edited March 14, 2013 by HU&W

[PirateAF]

[Muscle2002]

Obviously, this was put out by the company building the A-29. However, I wonder if the lateral-directional stability of the AT-6 is poor enough to warrant the added weight and drag of the larger empennage.

[theat6bisasham]

The T-6 wouldn't last 6 months flying from rugged environment ...jesus they look 20 years old after sitting on the ramp at Vance for 5 years...ferrari's break hard..too brittle

[backseatdriver]

The T-6 wouldn't last 6 months flying from rugged environment ...jesus they look 20 years old after sitting on the ramp at Vance for 5 years...ferrari's break hard..too brittle

I'm not sure what it is, but I get the impression you may be a bit biased in this discussion.

[StoleIt]

Any chance the AF will stand up a unit or is that dead?

Sounds like it would be a hoot to fly and a pretty bad ass mission.

[check6]

Depends.

...

Do you want something that's easy for T-6 FAIPs to transition to? AT-6 Doesn't matter.

Fixed it. T-6 FAIPs are not going to have much trouble switching to such a similar platform, or any platform really.

[vsu8992]

Any chance the AF will stand up a unit or is that dead?

Sounds like it would be a hoot to fly and a pretty bad ass mission.

Remember back in the good ol days we had this spigot called UON...

If program was properly handled years ago then Yes! 2013 = DOA. Maybe we could get CAP to secretly stand up a clandestine Sq to escape the eyes of budget Hawks

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[Muscle2002]

Fixed it. T-6 FAIPs are not going to have much trouble switching to such a similar platform, or any platform really.

Any platform? Uh huh, right.

[brewskis]

The T-6 wouldn't last 6 months flying from rugged environment ...jesus they look 20 years old after sitting on the ramp at Vance for 5 years...ferrari's break hard..too brittle

This a slight thread digression, but I think the T-6s are holding up pretty well. Considering the engine is damn near unbreakable, there really isn't anything else on the airplane that could have a catastrophic failure that would lead to a mishap. No hydraulically operated controls, or super complicated ECS, etc. There's a few small problems with the canopy locking mechanism, and some of the hydraulic pumps are failing (no biggie considering it has the emergency reservoir), but that's about it. If you put the safety record of the Tweet next to the Texan over the same period of time, I don't think the comparison would be even close.

As for the AT-6B vs. the A-29:

Someone smarter than myself put it this way: The T-6 is a Pilatus PC-9 optimized as a trainer (pretty much just threw an A/C on it), and the A-29 is a PC-9 optimized for light-attack (Embraer used the PC-9 as a basis for it's original Tucano) . I think that about ends the argument right there. Beech is going to fight this to the end though, considering their business situation.

[SurelySerious]

This a slight thread digression, but I think the T-6s are holding up pretty well. Considering the engine is damn near unbreakable, there really isn't anything else on the airplane that could have a catastrophic failure that would lead to a mishap. No hydraulically operated controls, or super complicated ECS, etc. There's a few small problems with the canopy locking mechanism, and some of the hydraulic pumps are failing (no biggie considering it has the emergency reservoir), but that's about it. If you put the safety record of the Tweet next to the Texan over the same period of time, I don't think the comparison would be even close.

Unbreakable, except for the whole PSTD bit that plagued the fleet for years.

[brewskis]

That hasn't occurred in years, though.

[10percenttruth]

And the oil starvation issue in inverted or negative g flight.

[Breckey]

Only a problem if you're Pete Mitchell

[HU&W]

And the oil starvation issue in inverted or negative g flight.

How would the oil system know it is inverted in the absence of negative g flight?

[billy pilgrim]

How would the oil system know it is inverted in the absence of negative g flight?

So.. you're saying the data on the Mig is inaccurate?

[Clark Griswold]

Is the OV-10X still in the running if this program actually ever happens?