AF Light Air Support Aircraft

[HU&W]

The Amazing OV-10 Bronco Was Never Allowed To Meet Its Full Potential

Good article on what could have been with a video on the YOV-10D NOGS

Now THIS, augmented of course by the whole menu of other combat aircraft, might replace some of the capes we'd be losing with the A-10.

[Clark Griswold]

Now THIS, augmented of course by the whole menu of other combat aircraft, might replace some of the capes we'd be losing with the A-10.

yep - it would / would have been great but what should have been a straightforward Urgent Operation Need turned into a food fight and another fumble...

So let's see 100 LAARs at 15 mil a copy comes to 1.5 billion and then x 4 for life cycle cost (WAG) comes to 6 billion then for about 20 years of flying service (conservative service life). Assume you keep 50 deployed and fly 200 hours a day, will just double a WAG of a per flight hour cost of $1000 and say it costs $2000 when deployed figuring the logistics footprint. That's $400,000 per day and that's a lot of ISR, Overwatch, CAS, Patrol, etc... Now to do that same 200 hours with 4th Generation fighter or A-10 at an average of $30,000 per flight hour in theatre and that's 6 million a day. That's not even trying to figure in the cost to AR some of those missions and cost of in / out of theatre movements. So in one year, to fly the 4th Gen it was about 2.2 billion and to fly the LAARs it was 146 million, difference of about 2.05 billion, you just paid for the LAAR acquisition in one year and every year after that's just bonus.

Now I know that is just a linear extrapolation and the savings would take several FYs to realize as the spin up costs at first would be steep but had the AF had the foresight or the DoD to just admit around March of 04 that we were in protracted COIN / Occupation-Pacification operations in two widely separated and expensive (logistically) theaters to operate in and that we need to field appropriately scaled and sustainable systems to fight long wars, we would have the money for nice things like T-X, LRSB, etc... Oh well, rant complete and we've moved on since then but still just another missed opportunity...

Edited April 6, 2015 by Clark Griswold

[Sprkt69]

yep - it would / would have been great but what should have been a straightforward Urgent Operation Need turned into a food fight and another fumble...

So let's see 100 LAARs at 15 mil a copy comes to 1.5 billion and then x 4 for life cycle cost (WAG) comes to 6 billion then for about 20 years of flying service (conservative service life). Assume you keep 50 deployed and fly 200 hours a day, will just double a WAG of a per flight hour cost of $1000 and say it costs $2000 when deployed figuring the logistics footprint. That's $400,000 per day and that's a lot of ISR, Overwatch, CAS, Patrol, etc... Now to do that same 200 hours with 4th Generation fighter or A-10 at an average of $30,000 per flight hour in theatre and that's 6 million a day. That's not even trying to figure in the cost to AR some of those missions and cost of in / out of theatre movements. So in one year, to fly the 4th Gen it was about 2.2 billion and to fly the LAARs it was 146 million, difference of about 2.05 billion, you just paid for the LAAR acquisition in one year and every year after that's just bonus.

Now I know that is just a linear extrapolation and the savings would take several FYs to realize as the spin up costs at first would be steep but had the AF had the foresight or the DoD to just admit around March of 04 that we were in protracted COIN / Occupation-Pacification operations in two widely separated and expensive (logistically) theaters to operate in and that we need to field appropriately scaled and sustainable systems to fight long wars, we would have the money for nice things like T-X, LRSB, etc... Oh well, rant complete and we've moved on since then but still just another missed opportunity...

I said that to my Wing King and our 2 Star. They thought I was crazy for even saying such nonsense. They even said they would never find someone to fly such a platform. I volunteered. Didn't work out all that well for me after that.

[Clark Griswold]

I said that to my Wing King and our 2 Star. They thought I was crazy for even saying such nonsense. They even said they would never find someone to fly such a platform. I volunteered. Didn't work out all that well for me after that.

Sorry to hear that, it always is amazing to see the lack of imagination or out of the container thinking the AF at certain echelons and above in the AF - if it's not 150K+ GW or supersonic the AF is not really interested and if the mission is primarily in service to another branch of the military, forget it. But I'm not cynical, not one bit...

[Lawman]

Sorry to hear that, it always is amazing to see the lack of imagination or out of the container thinking the AF at certain echelons and above in the AF - if it's not 150K+ GW or supersonic the AF is not really interested and if the mission is primarily in service to another branch of the military, forget it. But I'm not cynical, not one bit...

The really F'd up thing about it....

While we sit here and tell our own servicemen and congress that such an aircraft has no place in a low intensity insurgency type fight, we are simultaneously sending guys from the 6th SOS to countries in Africa, SA, and Asia. Where we are having them convince those countries they are exactly what they need and not to piss money away on Vipers or Eurofighters to fight guys camping in the jungle with AKs and making IEDs.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Lawman

[Clark Griswold]

The really F'd up thing about it....

While we sit here and tell our own servicemen and congress that such an aircraft has no place in a low intensity insurgency type fight, we are simultaneously sending guys from the 6th SOS to countries in Africa, SA, and Asia. Where we are having them convince those countries they are exactly what they need and not to piss money away on Vipers or Eurofighters to fight guys camping in the jungle with AKs and making IEDs.

Yep - on the same idea, one reason (not the only) but one reason the F-20 Tigershark never got a launch customer was that we weren't buying it, the idea was if it isn't good enough for you then why is it good enough for me? Not confidence inspiring for an ally to commit to for a sustainable MDS.

Now one was a multi-role fighter and we're talking about relatively inexpensive light attack aircraft but the idea is analogous. It's probably not too far off the mark that some of these partner countries would be more willing to commit their scant defense resources towards something that we fly, we will train them in and that we sustain the viability of by our ownership of said aircraft.

Got to see the Scorpion Jet at a WEPTAC and they built that jet mainly for the international market (from the company reps), if the ANG and AFR which have 9 squadrons of A-10's were allowed to convert to say 5 of them to Scorpions that would give others (think Kenya, Columbia, Philippines, Brazil, etc...) the confidence to make their own purchases and seed the market.

This is the strategic thinking that AF seems incapable of now, just reacts from one procurement fiasco to the next and is always making excuses and telling Congress that come next FY everything will be fixed.

Edit:

Added Scorpion Jet propaganda

Edited April 7, 2015 by Clark Griswold

[Vprdrvr69]

https://www.iomax.net/archangel/

8+ hours of fuel, huge load out, MX-15Did, vortex, 7 radios, and rugged as hell!

[BFM this]

Someone ought to have a conversation with the Jolly community about sensor ball Class-A's.

[McDonut]

I can already see the DO screaming at the squadron, "STOP TAXIING OVER THE FREAKIN CABLES!!!"

Edited April 7, 2015 by McDonut

[ExBoneOSO]

https://www.iomax.net/archangel/

8+ hours of fuel, huge load out, MX-15Did, vortex, 7 radios, and rugged as hell!

That's one heavily armed crop duster.

Edited April 7, 2015 by ExBoneOSO

[tac airlifter]

https://www.iomax.net/archangel/

8+ hours of fuel, huge load out, MX-15Did, vortex, 7 radios, and rugged as hell!

I love it! Looks like the program we were selling to the Yems before that place nose dived. Needs a different location for the sensor though.... And a different sensor. And BLOS off boarding, and data links. But it would do more for our fight of the last and next decade than the 22 or 35!

[Stitch]

Just dust off the plans and reopen the production line for these...

[Clark Griswold]

Just dust off the plans and reopen the production line for these...

Like it - just a plastic model but what an updated Skyraider might look like...

[Prosuper]

Like it - just a plastic model but what an updated Skyraider might look like...

I think I would put the exhaust at 6 oclock, that would cause mx problems blowing on the wing plus roast the pilot.

[busdriver]

Someone ought to have a conversation with the Jolly community about sensor ball Class-A's.

Yep, kiss that TFU good bye if you're landing on unimproved strips.

tac airlifter, you think the 380 HLD wouldn't work (from the website) or is the MX-15 the problem?

[Stitch]

I think I would put the exhaust at 6 oclock, that would cause mx problems blowing on the wing plus roast the pilot.

Totally agree, but wouldn't that "cook" the centerline bag and all that JP-8? Maybe run some "sidepipes" and blow the exhaust out somewhere aft of the trailing edge of the wing. Which would of course roast the poor slob pumping gas during hot pit refuel...

As long as we're dreaming here I guess they could slap a C-130 type of motor on a brand new Skyraider airframe. That'd be pretty cool.

[HU&W]

Totally agree, but wouldn't that "cook" the centerline bag and all that JP-8? Maybe run some "sidepipes" and blow the exhaust out somewhere aft of the trailing edge of the wing. Which would of course roast the poor slob pumping gas during hot pit refuel...

As long as we're dreaming here I guess they could slap a C-130 type of motor on a brand new Skyraider airframe. That'd be pretty cool.

A P&W PT6 on a Skyraider would work just fine. My biggest question would be how to best refuel it in flight.

[Stitch]

A P&W PT6 on a Skyraider would work just fine. My biggest question would be how to best refuel it in flight.

Probe/drogue like a helo, just put the probe way out on the wing or maybe some sort of pop up deal like a F-18 or Harrier. Remember seeing old photos of F-89s or some such Korean War era jets where the boom off a KC-29 plugged into a spot out on the wingtip area. So its been done before...

[HU&W]

Probe/drogue like a helo, just put the probe way out on the wing or maybe some sort of pop up deal like a F-18 or Harrier. Remember seeing old photos of F-89s or some such Korean War era jets where the boom off a KC-29 plugged into a spot out on the wingtip area. So its been done before...

Completely valid point. Of course, as cool as a rehashed skyraider or OV10 would be, we'd probably be just as good buying a few hundred A-29 Super-T's.

[Stitch]

Completely valid point. Of course, as cool as a rehashed skyraider or OV10 would be, we'd probably be just as good buying a few hundred A-29 Super-T's.

Never let budget driven decisions, logic or common sense get in the way of a plan to resurrect ghosts of airframes past. But the new school Skyraider would be a dumptruck of munitions with enough gas to stay on station for hours long after the Super T's call it a day.

[SocialD]

I can already see the DO screaming at the squadron, "STOP TAXIING OVER THE FREAKIN CABLES!!!"

Or...."STOP GROUND LOOPING!!!"

[xcraftllc]

(I feel a negative vote coming)

You know, such a plane would indeed be very cost-effective, and there are some good ideas out there, but every time I see these proposals, all I can think is; just reset the A-10 air frames and update the avionics.

I mean, OV-10s and Skyraiders are cool in Vietnam Era terms, and I'm sure Light Air Support aircraft will play a crucial role in the security of small nations like Afghanistan, but they have their limits. Could you imagine what they would've been able to do with A-10s in Nam? Many of the lessons learned in the era of OV-10s and Skyraiders were applied to the Hawg's design. Not to mention all the logistics and experience that is already in place.

I will now excuse myself from this thread...

[JarheadBoom]

Yep, kiss that TFU good bye if you're landing on unimproved strips.

tac airlifter, you think the 380 HLD wouldn't work (from the website) or is the MX-15 the problem?

The 380HLD and MX-15 are within 1/2" of each other in height, per the datasheets on their respective websites.

On the .civ side; the FLIR 380HDc is several inches shorter (specifically configured for under-nose rotary-wing installations), but I don't know if that particular model will support all the capes required for a .mil application.

A P&W PT6 on a Skyraider would work just fine.

You'd need something with more balls than a PT6. The most powerful PT6A-series (turboprop) engine is just under 2000hp; the original Wright 3350 was cranking out a little over 2700hp. Sticking with a Pratt, a PW127-series engine is in the ~2700hp range, and other engines in the PW100 family are pushing 5000hp.

[Clark Griswold]

I think I would put the exhaust at 6 oclock, that would cause mx problems blowing on the wing plus roast the pilot.

Totally agree, but wouldn't that "cook" the centerline bag and all that JP-8? Maybe run some "sidepipes" and blow the exhaust out somewhere aft of the trailing edge of the wing. Which would of course roast the poor slob pumping gas during hot pit refuel...

As long as we're dreaming here I guess they could slap a C-130 type of motor on a brand new Skyraider airframe. That'd be pretty cool.

Probably so - that was just a guy's weekend (or several) project but still nice. The AE 2100D (J model 130 & 27) puts out (giggity) 4700+ ESHP so that could work and you could route the exhaust like on the A2D Skyshark

But that's getting away from the intention of the original LAAR proposal. It needs to be something around 15 mil or less a copy and ideally cost less than 1K per hour to fly, those numbers were not stated in the original RFP but watching the whole thing unfold that appears what they wanted and now have in the A-29 program being run at Moody.

I'm still a big believer in the Scorpion Jet and particularly that for the ANG, LAAR and would be good for DOMOPS / DSCA but without the ANG having its own procurement authority and the USAF not interested, probably a 0.1% chance.

A P&W PT6 on a Skyraider would work just fine. My biggest question would be how to best refuel it in flight.

Got that covered.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Clark Griswold

[raimius]

OV-10 reincarnation would be pretty sweet. I like the gun turret!

...or PA-48

Get a little pseudo-mustang going

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_PA-48_Enforcer#/media/File:Piper_PA48_Enforcer_USAF.jpg