AF Light Air Support Aircraft

[Danger41]

13 minutes ago, Best-22 said:

https://www.pa.ng.mil/Site-Management/News-Article-View/Article/3103505/193rd-special-operations-wing-preps-for-mission-conversion/

"The 193rd Special Operations Wing is undergoing a substantial transformation of its primary mission. The wing is transitioning from its legacy EC-130J Commando Solo aircraft to the MC-130J Commando II."

 

I can't find a source online that directly says the old EC's are being used for MAC testing so I guess you just have to trust me.

We’ll I’ll be damned. Thanks for the link/education.

[jice]

16 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Yea agreed with @Standby, not even a wingman, but truly a 1-of-1 alone and unafraid.

Is the intent to employ primarily as a single ship? I know this thing isn’t a fighter, but if there’s a chance of rolling in for strafe with machine gun (not cannon), I’d definitely want somebody else ready to roll in ASAP.

Edit: looks like I was confused. No machine guns advertised on this platform. In any case, seems like two in the stack would be better than one.

Edited August 5, 2022 by jice

[ClearedHot]

10 hours ago, Danger41 said:

Based on the history of naked gunner hugs, “Big Gay” stamps, and covering every square inch of their work spaces with dick drawings, I think the Gunship community has fully embraced the gayest elements of the woke movement and probably didn’t need any training on being accepting of alternative lifestyles. Truly stunning and brave. 

I kid, I kid!

Much to learn you still have young Padawan...it appears you have not learned the true history of the empire.  Naked Gunner Hugs are a PAVELOW incarnation (yet another F'd up thing that community did to AFSOC).  Ever hear the story of welcoming the new guy by forcing him to drink a beer from the prosthetic leg of one of their pilots?

As a former Eagle guy (you still "tight" with your crew Chief?), and "SEAL of the Sky", I know you are hyper-sensitive to your underlying desire for man meat, but don't project on us just because you couldn't get a gunship.

11 hours ago, Danger41 said:

Really? I know they’re going away but ACC owns the Compass Calls and the ANG owns the Commando Solos and I find that incredibly hard to believe either of those entities would transfer them to AFSOC or AFMC for test. Especially not before the EC-37B is on the ramp.

For years the Harrisburg guys have been pursuing a mission change.  Knowing the limited utility of the Solo program given there are many new ways to accomplish including roll on roll off, they wanted to remain AFSOC with a more mainstream mission.  The inside baseball is CRAZY...don't F with guard jobs!

4 hours ago, jice said:

Is the intent to employ primarily as a single ship? I know this thing isn’t a fighter, but if there’s a chance of rolling in for strafe with machine gun (not cannon), I’d definitely want somebody else ready to roll in ASAP.

Edit: looks like I was confused. No machine guns advertised on this platform. In any case, seems like two in the stack would be better than one.

Single Ship...yes a divergence from the ACC multi-ship model but this is Armed Overwatch NOT Light-attack.  With multiple sensors this starts off as a long-duration ISR platform with the ability to provide strike support.  Gun is a possibility but given the current weapon options it would likely be the last resort.  This leads to another misconception about this mission set...these planes will operate from the dirt but I don't think the CONOP will have them down fighting in the dirt.  Just like our current manned ISR assets, this aircraft will have MX-20s and weather permitting they will operate at much higher altitudes and have the ability to provide a deep magazine of precision fires from those altitudes.  We all understand GBUs and Hellfire, but many have not seen how APKWS can change the fight.  There is still much work to do and as a dude who spent most of his career looking through a HUD shooting 20MM, 40MM and 105MM on the nuggets of bad people I am guarded but hopeful that in at least some situations AOW can provide highly accurate and more importantly highly effective fires single ship form high altitudes. 

There is another benefit and that is the reduced manpower requirement this aircraft brings to the CONOP.  For a better description check out this Collapse the Stack Brief.

[BashiChuni]

5 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

 

As a former Eagle guy (you still "tight" with your crew Chief?), and "SEAL of the Sky", I know you are hyper-sensitive to your underlying desire for man meat, but don't project on us just because you couldn't get a gunship.

 

HAHAHAHAH HIT HIM FROM ALL SIDES CH!!!

[kaputt]

Genuine question here, is the Air Force planning some sort of tailwheel transition for this before dudes take a swing at the Air Tractor? 
 

Not that you couldn’t jump into an Air Tractor right off the bat, but as someone with a tailwheel endorsement, it seems some Citabria or similar time might be helpful.
 

Tailwheel isn’t some unattainable skill, but there is a certain finesse to it that even 10 hours in something with less horsepower might help.  Granted I’ve never flown an Air Tractor, so maybe it’s an absolute sweetheart to land? 

[frog]

1 hour ago, kaputt said:

Genuine question here, is the Air Force planning some sort of tailwheel transition for this before dudes take a swing at the Air Tractor? 
 

Not that you couldn’t jump into an Air Tractor right off the bat, but as someone with a tailwheel endorsement, it seems some Citabria or similar time might be helpful.
 

Tailwheel isn’t some unattainable skill, but there is a certain finesse to it that even 10 hours in something with less horsepower might help.  Granted I’ve never flown an Air Tractor, so maybe it’s an absolute sweetheart to land? 

I remember my first TW lesson with a 20,000 hour ag pilot in a Super Cub. I remember thinking “it’s just another airplane” just before pushing the throttle in. I managed to use the full width of the runway multiple times before the completely nonchalant instructor said “Well, are we going to go flying or just f*ck around down here on the ground.”

I fully endorse the idea that you should have some TW time before the first time you fly something like an Air Tractor.

[ClearedHot]

6 hours ago, kaputt said:

Genuine question here, is the Air Force planning some sort of tailwheel transition for this before dudes take a swing at the Air Tractor? 
 

Not that you couldn’t jump into an Air Tractor right off the bat, but as someone with a tailwheel endorsement, it seems some Citabria or similar time might be helpful.
 

Tailwheel isn’t some unattainable skill, but there is a certain finesse to it that even 10 hours in something with less horsepower might help.  Granted I’ve never flown an Air Tractor, so maybe it’s an absolute sweetheart to land? 

Valid question as well. 

I learned to fly in a J3 Super Cub and of course there are few unique skills associated with tailwheel aircraft.  I am not in the know but I would assume the initial cadre will get a tailwheel transition then it will become just another part of the syllabus.  I also think AFSOC will eventually acquire a few slick 802's for training.

[Lawman]

Valid question as well. 
I learned to fly in a J3 Super Cub and of course there are few unique skills associated with tailwheel aircraft.  I am not in the know but I would assume the initial cadre will get a tailwheel transition then it will become just another part of the syllabus.  I also think AFSOC will eventually acquire a few slick 802's for training.

Honestly this is one of those “just buy me 6-9 cheap ______s so I can stop bending expensive metal” problems. A couple J-3 Cubs with big bush wheels and a cadre of experienced instructors who specialize to that task would be perfect for building that comfort zone without them taking the expensive MAS and figuring it out in their own.

If you put “the kids” in bumper cars to learn Tail Wheel in a safe environment then really short of killing themselves in something spectacular the regular bumps and prop damage events common to tail wheel (by comparison) won’t be as big a deal. It financially won’t create class A’s so nobody in leadership need worry about perception that would ruin their career.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ClearedHot]

6 hours ago, Lawman said:

Honestly this is one of those “just buy me 6-9 cheap ______s so I can stop bending expensive metal” problems. A couple J-3 Cubs with big bush wheels and a cadre of experienced instructors who specialize to that task would be perfect for building that comfort zone without them taking the expensive MAS and figuring it out in their own.

If you put “the kids” in bumper cars to learn Tail Wheel in a safe environment then really short of killing themselves in something spectacular the regular bumps and prop damage events common to tail wheel (by comparison) won’t be as big a deal. It financially won’t create class A’s so nobody in leadership need worry about perception that would ruin their career.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Its not Rocket Surgery...

AFSOC already used the same model with PC-12/U-28.  Take them to the dirt in a slick bird and save your mission birds for high end training and combat.  This is a simple training issue, tail draggers are different not cosmic.

[Blue]

On 7/17/2022 at 3:29 PM, Danger41 said:

What’s the status of the Scorpion jet now? Still keeping the lights on with it or mothballed?

Got curious and spent some time trying to figure this out.  They built four Scorpions, and this article from five years ago included a shot of all flying in formation, including tail numbers.  Here are the most recent flights according the FlightAware, note only N534TX has been flying recently.

N531TA: Aug 2017

N530TX: Dec 2017

N532TX: Aug 2021

N534TX: 28 Jul 2022

It's a shame.  Given all of the commonalities with the Citation business jets, the Scorpion would have had the benefit of a ready supply base, for one thing.

CH's comment below rings true.  Without having any inside knowledge, I'd assume anything turbine powered was a non-starter from the beginning.  Turbine military aircraft is the realm of Boeing/Lockheed/Northrop.  Those companies don't want someone like Textron getting their "nose under the tent" with an aircraft that is an order of magnitude cheaper.  If the Scorpion started performing well, it's possible Congress would eventually take notice and reprogram money away from the F-35 and other sacred cows.  And you can't have that happening, after all.

On 7/17/2022 at 9:13 AM, ClearedHot said:

Sadly, I saw far too much of this during my time in the five sided dumpster fire.  Real analysis is usually overcome by flawed group think, service rice bowls and personal agendas.  A part of me believes they down-selected to props knowing it would marginalize the capability so they could wait out McCain and the others pushing for Lite-attack.  Had they gone with Scorpion Jet and followed their own rules of analysis we would have a couple hundred on the ramp right now providing deep options for the COCOMs...AND they would have had the legs and capability to support some of the peer/near-peer fight (albeit outside some of the threat rings). 

 

 

[Bigred]

12 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

Valid question as well. 

I learned to fly in a J3 Super Cub and of course there are few unique skills associated with tailwheel aircraft.  I am not in the know but I would assume the initial cadre will get a tailwheel transition then it will become just another part of the syllabus.  I also think AFSOC will eventually acquire a few slick 802's for training.

Let them learn to grease a Cessna 140 and they’ll never have tail wheel landing issues. Those spring steel main mounts still give me nightmares, and the former French Mirage pilot teaching me couldn’t stop laughing as he counter landings as we bounced down the runway. 

[Danger41]

13 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

Its not Rocket Surgery...

AFSOC already used the same model with PC-12/U-28.  Take them to the dirt in a slick bird and save your mission birds for high end training and combat.  This is a simple training issue, tail draggers are different not cosmic.

That was one of the best deals going with the slicks. In one weekend I based out of Scottsdale with some bros and went up to Leadville (highest airport in North America) and the next day went to Furnace Creek (L06/lowest airport in the US) with Grand Canyon tours and stops at some amazing airports like Bar Ten, Glenwood Springs, and Telluride.

Having those made taking the mission birds to the dirt, blacked out, on NVGs for Amp-4 work much easier. I hope that template makes its way to AOW. 

[JimNtexas]

On 8/6/2022 at 5:32 AM, ClearedHot said:

Valid question as well. 

I learned to fly in a J3 Super Cub and of course there are few unique skills associated with tailwheel aircraft.  I am not in the know but I would assume the initial cadre will get a tailwheel transition then it will become just another part of the syllabus.  I also think AFSOC will eventually acquire a few slick 802's for training.

I also learned in a J-3.  I would suggest starting new tail wheel students on a grass strip.

[norskman]

On 8/3/2022 at 8:16 AM, tac airlifter said:

Valid, and my reply wasn’t exactly to you.  Imperfect communication on a message board, the struggle is real!

I’m personably less concerned about the transition to single pilot ops (although it will require training) than using a TW.  It’s not rocket science, but it’s counterintuitive juxtaposed against T6 training, incurring risk to force.  A surmountable challenge, but one requiring deliberate effort.  

Locking tailwheel on these rigs. Got a few buddies that fly tractors. They say these things are a breeze to fly. The only difference from tricycle is the variation of pitch on takeoff and landing.

Edited August 8, 2022 by norskman

[MC5Wes]

On 8/2/2022 at 10:53 AM, MC5Wes said:

Also. What will happen to the 4 AT-6 and A-29s at Duke and Nellis?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/air-force-wants-to-liquidate-its-tiny-light-attack-plane-fleet

[Rifleman96]

8 hours ago, MC5Wes said:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/air-force-wants-to-liquidate-its-tiny-light-attack-plane-fleet

Give ‘em to some CAP units.

[Clark Griswold]

Give ‘em to some CAP units.

Best use but alas I think they’ll be foreign military gifts as soon as the af can do it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Swizzle]

11 hours ago, Rifleman96 said:

Give ‘em to some CAP units.

They could put them to good use...

"CAP claimed its first U-boat kill on July 11, 1942, when Captain Johnny Haggins and Major Wynant Farr, flying a Grumman G-44 Widgeon armed with two depth charges, bombed a sub they had been shadowing for three hours, just as it came up to periscope depth."

..."reported 173 U-boat positions and dropped 82 bombs on 57 of those subs."

https://www.historynet.com/civil-air-patrols-combat-pilots/

 

[ClearedHot]

A big ole FU to CAA community!

If you ever wondered how senior USAF leadership views your contributions, now you have it in writing.

[Danger41]

I asked a CAA about that and heard that stemmed from the 6th getting closed but also the CAA’s not getting the beret wear approved into 36-2903. I have a hunch that if that would’ve happened, I doubt there would’ve been any drama since Lt Gen Slife’s view on the truly black/white nature of regulation adherence is well documented. Or he could have a grudge against them. Who knows.

[FLEA]

16 hours ago, Danger41 said:

I asked a CAA about that and heard that stemmed from the 6th getting closed but also the CAA’s not getting the beret wear approved into 36-2903. I have a hunch that if that would’ve happened, I doubt there would’ve been any drama since Lt Gen Slife’s view on the truly black/white nature of regulation adherence is well documented. Or he could have a grudge against them. Who knows.

I dont think its a grudge. I've talked to several CAAs that have mentioned theyve been cropped to work on a project to envision the next generation of AvFID. There was a strong rumor on the amn/nco/snco FB page that part of the problem with the 6th is they couldnt get any of the AFSOC command list commanders through selection and assessment. (2 gaining commanders failed and therefore were sent elsewhere.) 

[Danger41]

If that’s the case, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for them. I’m not saying you lower the standard or whatever, but there’s a reason RASP has different versions. And also, what are they failing these dudes for? 

[DirkDiggler]

6 hours ago, Danger41 said:

If that’s the case, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for them. I’m not saying you lower the standard or whatever, but there’s a reason RASP has different versions. And also, what are they failing these dudes for? 

One guy had a pre-existing foot issue  that resulted in him not being able to complete some ruck marches.  Don’t know about the other guy.

  From what I was told (wasn’t personally in the rooms) Slife made it pretty clear that he wasn’t a fan of assessment/selection in general, prefers ACI as a concept.  Slife had several problems with the 6th as an organization; this was just one of them.

[SocialD]

On 10/10/2022 at 6:20 PM, ClearedHot said:

A big ole FU to CAA community!

If you ever wondered how senior USAF leadership views your contributions, now you have it in writing.

 

 

Whew!  Glad the good General took care of the problem at the core.  If only our leadership cared as much about admin issues (comm/finance/etc...time sucks that dimish daily ops), as they care about 36-2903.  

[ClearedHot]

1 hour ago, DirkDiggler said:

  Slife had several problems with the 6th as an organization; this was just one of them.

IYKYK...