AF Light Air Support Aircraft

[nsplayr]

On 6/17/2018 at 6:25 PM, Clark Griswold said:

- Distribute the squadrons to retain some of the MQ-9 crew force by offering dual qual opportunities or homesteading, this would also be done in conjunction with an honest effort to improve QoL for RPA folks.  More & better base choices across several time zones.  11s & 18s could fly pilot / cso respectively and for enlisted sensors, make a CCAF degree and a commander's recommendation enough for an OTS program with a designated follow on and flying opportunity in the cso station.  

I think this issue gets hand-waived in the overall discussion of sending light attack to Guard MQ-9 units, and that's a mistake.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big proponent of light attack and also having pilots physically fly in aircraft, but bottom-line, the AFSC makeup of an MQ-9 squadron going forward is not conducive to what the AF has typically required for a manned two-seat fighter-type aircraft.

11U pilots, great, no questions asked, front seat for you and have fun raging. 18X pilots...um...back seat? But you're not trained to running a sensor and that kinda seems like a downgrade from PIC but I guess maybe you'll take it? As a former ISR CSO, future MQ-9 pilot, I'm game 100% to ride as the trunk monkey, but not everyone will be.

Enlisted SOs...um...well that's a pickle, and that's at least 1/3 of your squadron. The AF has (foolishly) shown little to no appetite for letting scruffy, knuckle-dragging enlisted do what will be required of a light attack back-seater, with the exception being on the AC-130W/J. Hell, they won't even let MQ-9 SOs make IMINT update calls on the radio FFS! I'm a big fan of a fast-track-to-commissioning like you said as a better solution than enlisted pilots of re-creating a Warrant Officer system, but I'm not holding my breath that it will ever happen.

Enlisted and Officer MICs...yea...squadron intel for light attack doesn't quite need the bodies that RPA does, guess you'll be finding new jobs and/or not participating in this new mission.

While we're at it, I'm also skeptical of the ideas that A) light attack is a good fit for brand new, fresh pilot training graduates because it's "easy," especially if they move to light attack after a shortened syllabus, and B) that creating 300+ new cockpits when we barely have enough pilots to fly our current taskings is a great plan. Same goes if the AF plans to use 12X CSOs in the back seat...creating 750 additional CSOs out of thin air (@ a 2.5/tail manning ratio on 300 tails) would be a SIGNIFICANT challenge given the relatively small total number of CSOs in the AF currently.

But what do I know...I just work here 🤷‍♂️

Edited June 22, 2018 by nsplayr

[Clark Griswold]

1 hour ago, nsplayr said:

... smart words...

I hear you and I make no illusions that my proffered idea is perfect and doesn't come without significant cost, assumptions that are likely only partly true and some difficulty to implement but IMHO it is a step in the right direction of trying to retain & retrain talent that has proved itself valuable in a related assignment and could be redirected for a related assignment.

On synching it with the MQ-9 community... Will it be appropriate for all MQ-9 crew or squadrons?  No.  For some?  Probably and probably enough to make it worth the effort.

On enlisted SOs and the lack of vision the AF has had for tapping some on the shoulder that have demonstrated skill and ability... No disagreement this is a mistake the AF has fallen into and needs to be corrected, this is one program to do that.

On the ability of new Pilots / CSOs to be given a light attack assignment right out of UPT / UCT... disagree if they do not min run the syllabus and train accordingly, there is no reason to think they could not handle the mission.  The key is for the AF to look down on this as "just a light attack aircraft" and see it as equal to any other assignment and train accordingly.

Lower need for Intel folks in Light Attack Squadrons?  Copy, offer some retraining opportunities if they want to apply for rated slots, those that don't or can't, work with them.  This is an issue, nobody should / would get screwed but it is addressable.

This would be a multi year, multi-base, multi-billion dollar program and IMHO as important as any other MWS.  The AF didn't get into the region of reverse command overnight and it won't get out of it either, building up the manned light attack mission community would likely take 3-5 years but it is better to get started now, again AF just buy one...

I can't believe the AF, a military institution ostensibly led by fighter pilots is resistant to buying into this idea.

[viper154]

8 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

 

On synching it with the MQ-9 community... Will it be appropriate for all MQ-9 crew or squadrons?  No.  For some?  Probably and probably enough to make it worth the effort.

 

I can't believe the AF, a military institution ostensibly led by fighter pilots is resistant to buying into this idea.

I was all about the MQ-9 light attack pairing, but not a snowballs chance in hell for AD, guard, maybe but not likely. AFPC/leadership wants all manned dudes out of RPAs, unless they are Major/ Lt Colonel types because there are no/very few 18x that have reached that rank yet. Last I heard from AFPC the plan was to have all A tour dudes back in a jet by the end of 2019. They are denying younger guys the recat to 11U, and forcing some of the older guys to recat to fill the ranks. 

 

Long story short, in 2-3 years I wouldn’t expect AD to have many manned line dogs in drones, and only a handful in leadership rolls that don’t fly much anyway. 

 

[nsplayr]

1 hour ago, viper154 said:

Long story short, in 2-3 years I wouldn’t expect AD to have many manned line dogs in drones, and only a handful in leadership rolls that don’t fly much anyway.

Exactly.

At the ranks of Captain and below, my Guard MQ-9 unit has exactly 1x 11U pilot. All others are 18X. There are definitely a bunch of Majors and more than a few Lt. Cols that would love to hop in a jet and rage again, but the future of the squadron is completely incompatible with the likely crew requirements for light attack. In 6-9 years the number of "real" pilots remaining will be greatly reduced due to retirements.

To me, that's the elephant in the room that should be deflating dudes' boners just a little bit. The states are chomping at the bit to get them because iron on the ramp = jobs, but they'd basically need to take on a new and separate mission while also maintaining MQ-9 to make it work IMHO.

Let alone that the AF hasn't bought jack nor shit yet...here's to hoping 

[Cooter]

14 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Exactly.

...There are definitely a bunch of Majors and more than a few Lt. Cols that would love to hop in a jet and rage again,..l

PREACH...I’m hoping a year or so from now I’m one of those Lt Col’s. I’ll sign whatever they want and stay until they throw me out kicking and screaming!

Cooter

[DirkDiggler]

10 hours ago, Cooter said:

PREACH...I’m hoping a year or so from now I’m one of those Lt Col’s. I’ll sign whatever they want and stay until they throw me out kicking and screaming!

Cooter

Manchester:  What if they asked you sign an agreement stating you get 4 years of raging followed by a mandatory CoS tour at a certain jt command?......

[Cooter]

1 hour ago, DirkDiggler said:

Manchester:  What if they asked you sign an agreement stating you get 4 years of raging followed by a mandatory CoS tour at a certain jt command?......

Why you gotta put that evil on me....?

Cooter

PS  Still totally worth it

[Clark Griswold]

We may have a winner...

Air Force Says It Might Have The Data It Needs From Its Light Attack Experiment After All

Just buy it... and give it the Guard 🙂

[tac airlifter]

Interesting read, thanks for posting.

i don’t think we’ll buy light attack.  Too bad.

[RegularJoe]

But Holmes said he was not concerned that the tragic event would have “undue impact” on whether the experiment moves forward, or whether the service tries similar efforts in the future.

“I don’t think it will have a chilling effect on future experiments,” he said. “Whenever you’re trying something new, there are risks of trying something new and working through it, and without knowing exactly what happened, and certainly without trying to insinuate exactly what happened — aviation’s not necessarily risky, but it’s unforgiving.”

“I think we’ll take a look at the data we’ve gathered, [and] we’ll continue ahead with our process toward deciding whether we want to go forward with the program.”

 

Wait I thought these were combat proven platforms......... It is truly unfortunate that it always takes a good person's life and skill to prove the futility of some of these programs to people that should be listening to start with.

[GoodSplash9]

On ‎6‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 9:01 PM, nsplayr said:

I think this issue gets hand-waived in the overall discussion of sending light attack to Guard MQ-9 units, and that's a mistake.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big proponent of light attack and also having pilots physically fly in aircraft, but bottom-line, the AFSC makeup of an MQ-9 squadron going forward is not conducive to what the AF has typically required for a manned two-seat fighter-type aircraft.

11U pilots, great, no questions asked, front seat for you and have fun raging. 18X pilots...um...back seat? But you're not trained to running a sensor and that kinda seems like a downgrade from PIC but I guess maybe you'll take it? As a former ISR CSO, future MQ-9 pilot, I'm game 100% to ride as the trunk monkey, but not everyone will be.

Enlisted SOs...um...well that's a pickle, and that's at least 1/3 of your squadron. The AF has (foolishly) shown little to no appetite for letting scruffy, knuckle-dragging enlisted do what will be required of a light attack back-seater, with the exception being on the AC-130W/J. Hell, they won't even let MQ-9 SOs make IMINT update calls on the radio FFS! I'm a big fan of a fast-track-to-commissioning like you said as a better solution than enlisted pilots of re-creating a Warrant Officer system, but I'm not holding my breath that it will ever happen.

Enlisted and Officer MICs...yea...squadron intel for light attack doesn't quite need the bodies that RPA does, guess you'll be finding new jobs and/or not participating in this new mission.

While we're at it, I'm also skeptical of the ideas that A) light attack is a good fit for brand new, fresh pilot training graduates because it's "easy," especially if they move to light attack after a shortened syllabus, and B) that creating 300+ new cockpits when we barely have enough pilots to fly our current taskings is a great plan. Same goes if the AF plans to use 12X CSOs in the back seat...creating 750 additional CSOs out of thin air (@ a 2.5/tail manning ratio on 300 tails) would be a SIGNIFICANT challenge given the relatively small total number of CSOs in the AF currently.

But what do I know...I just work here 🤷‍♂️

I'm late to the game (felt obligated to vent)...but I agree that pairing light attack up with MQ-9 units probably isn't feasible over the next few years. And you would think "11U pilots, great, no questions asked" makes sense. A few of us 11Us found out recently that big blue didn't trust us to try our hand out at flying the C-208 or AC-208 while volunteering for a 365 to Afghanistan. Lets non-vol U-28 and AC-130 pilots because they are the dudes that have what it takes outside 11Fs. It's a single engine Cessna Caravan.....seriously?

As an 11U out of the real cockpit for 6+ years, I'm doing everything I can to get back to a flying gig for a few years. Light attack would be sick, but it seems like the guys doing it right now have to have a fighter background.

nsplayr, are you going through the MQ-9 B course right now?

[tac airlifter]

4 hours ago, GoodSplash9 said:

I'm late to the game (felt obligated to vent)...but I agree that pairing light attack up with MQ-9 units probably isn't feasible over the next few years. And you would think "11U pilots, great, no questions asked" makes sense. A few of us 11Us found out recently that big blue didn't trust us to try our hand out at flying the C-208 or AC-208 while volunteering for a 365 to Afghanistan. Lets non-vol U-28 and AC-130 pilots because they are the dudes that have what it takes outside 11Fs. It's a single engine Cessna Caravan.....seriously?

As an 11U out of the real cockpit for 6+ years, I'm doing everything I can to get back to a flying gig for a few years. Light attack would be sick, but it seems like the guys doing it right now have to have a fighter background.

nsplayr, are you going through the MQ-9 B course right now?

Out of curiosity, did you volunteer to recat to 11U?

The light attack fly off crews are not exclusively 11F.

[nsplayr]

5 hours ago, GoodSplash9 said:

nsplayr, are you going through the MQ-9 B course right now?

Unfortunately I’m still waiting for a slot so to speak.

The Tennessee Air National Guard, southern hospitality, but also southern efficiency 😂 It’s all good, will happen soon and they’re taking care of me in the mean time.

Re: light attack, I know a pilot and CSO who are non-fighter types that are flying round 2 of the expirament now. Hopefully the AF isn’t shy about letting 11U guys get back in manned cockpits...they’re gonna need everybody they can get the way the trend lines are going! 

[herkbum]

2 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Unfortunately I’m still waiting for a slot so to speak.

The Tennessee Air National Guard, southern hospitality, but also southern efficiency 😂 It’s all good, will happen soon and they’re taking care of me in the mean time.

Re: light attack, I know a pilot and CSO who are non-fighter types that are flying round 2 of the expirament now. Hopefully the AF isn’t shy about letting 11U guys get back in manned cockpits...they’re gonna need everybody they can get the way the trend lines are going! 

Still no class date?  Waiver process?

[nsplayr]

16 hours ago, herkbum said:

Still no class date?  Waiver process?

Everything is back at NGB waiting to get the stamp, then I guess a date will follow? Hard to say.  Have checked in with Alex recently but he hadn’t heard anything new. I go on orders for the summer starting next week, so I’ll be able to poke around more frequently.

[GoodSplash9]

20 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Out of curiosity, did you volunteer to recat to 11U?

The light attack fly off crews are not exclusively 11F.

I did volunteer to recat to 11U. I actually love the MQ-9 mission, but I've reached some conclusions the last year that have convinced me that selling my time/life for standard career progression isn't the best thing for me or my family. I made a list of what I like....1) teaching/instructing, 2) hacking the mission with good bros & 3) new learning curves. The Pentagon staff gig and/or school first look they were peddling didn't meet any of these, so I called an abort and here I am trying to return to fly.

Didn't know there were non 11Fs flying LA, but I was basically politely told NO WAY because I had no fighter background or tactical formation experience (which I completely understand for what they are doing).

19 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Unfortunately I’m still waiting for a slot so to speak.

The Tennessee Air National Guard, southern hospitality, but also southern efficiency 😂 It’s all good, will happen soon and they’re taking care of me in the mean time.

Re: light attack, I know a pilot and CSO who are non-fighter types that are flying round 2 of the expirament now. Hopefully the AF isn’t shy about letting 11U guys get back in manned cockpits...they’re gonna need everybody they can get the way the trend lines are going! 

Got it, the pipeline is pretty backed up right now. Shoot me a PM if you wanna grab a beer or whatever when you come out to Holloman. I've "remotely operated" or taught academics with a bunch of Nashville pilots recently, seems like a pretty chill unit.

[herkbum]

1 hour ago, nsplayr said:

Everything is back at NGB waiting to get the stamp, then I guess a date will follow? Hard to say.  Have checked in with Alex recently but he hadn’t heard anything new. I go on orders for the summer starting next week, so I’ll be able to poke around more frequently.

Probably about time to make some phone calls. Would make them if I was there, it’s out of my lane now. 

[nsplayr]

Copy, will push it more when I get in. Hope things are good for you and your new gig!

#ThreadDerail

[ClearedHot]

USAF just cancelled the remainder of the current LAE at White Sands.

[Clark Griswold]

USAF just cancelled the remainder of the current LAE at White Sands.

Saw that.

Now they have enough data to decide whether or not to go to an OA-X evaluation because you know this is so new and cutting edge...

Rope a dope continues

[RegularJoe]

USAF giving away OV-10's so long as you provide the transportation to final destination.

 

US Air Force is giving away retired turboprop light attack aircraft to Philippines

https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia-pacific/2018/07/24/us-air-force-is-giving-away-retired-turboprop-light-attack-aircraft-to-philippines/

Philippines to bolster airborne COIN capabilities with Broncos, potentially Baslers

https://www.janes.com/article/81975/philippines-to-bolster-airborne-coin-capabilities-with-broncos-potentially-baslers

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2018 by RegularJoe

[DVT]

Why do I have a sinking feeling about this? 

No word on new jets and the AF starts cleaning out the desert of the most recent workhorse that filled the need.  

Standard AF procedure....give away an aircraft that COULD do the job.  Then tell Congress there is no need to field anything new, nor are there any former jets that could be refurbished available to do the job.  No refurbished jets pushed back on the service, no new jets for CAS and the AF marches on, not actually growing or doing its job! A win/win for the top brass.

Where oh where are the guys that would ravagedly take on this opportunity to field new jets that can get in the fight tomorrow?  Actually grow the AF and fill a requested need like a service is supposed to do shouldn't be this hard.

[matmacwc]

It's the AT-6

[ATIS]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-reveals-intentions-to-acquire-light-attack-figh-450940/

 

• 06 AUGUST, 2018
•  
• SOURCE: FLIGHTGLOBAL.COM
•  
• BY: GARRETT REIM
•  
• LOS ANGELES

After more than a year of flight demonstrations the US Air Force is formally moving the light attack aircraft experiment into the acquisitions phase, with the intention that it will award a production contract to Sierra Nevada Corporation or Textron Aviation in the fourth quarter of fiscal year 2019.

The pre-solicitation notice for the other than full and open competition was announced on 3 August. It is anticipated that a formal solicitation will be released in December of 2018, according to the USAF.

“[Light attack aircraft] will provide an affordable, non-developmental aircraft intended to operate globally in the types of irregular warfare environments that have characterized combat operations over the past 25 years,” the USAF wrote in its pre-solicitation notice. “Sierra Nevada Corporation and Textron Aviation are the only firms that appear to possess the capability necessary to meet the requirement within the Air Force's time frame without causing an unacceptable delay in meeting the needs of the warfighter.”

The USAF had been using data gathered from the light attack experiment phase, a series of demonstration flights over more than a year by the Sierra Nevada/Embraer A-29 Super Tucano and the Textron’s Beechcraft AT-6 Wolverine, to decide whether to buy potentially hundreds of light attack aircraft. The hope is these fighters could be cheaper alternatives for certain missions to using aircraft such as the Lockheed Martin F-35 and Boeing F-15.

The experiment was suspended prematurely after the fatal crash of a Sierra Nevada/Embraer A-29 Super Tucano on 22 June. The crash would not harm Sierra Nevada/Embraer's chances of winning the competition, the USAF said.

The USAF appears to be barring any manufacturers who did not participate in the light attack experiment by limiting potential bidders for the light attack production contract. Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and Czech aerospace manufacturer Aero Vodochody – companies that did not participate in the experiment – publicly pitched their jointly developed F/A-259 Striker jet to the US Air Force in July as a speedy, cost effective and production model that would meet the service’s requirements.

It is not clear if IAI and Aero Vodochody would protest their exclusion from the other than full and open competition. Neither company responded immediately for a request for comment.

[nsplayr]

I about fell out of my seat reading the headline. Good thing they clarified the timeline in the body of the article - Dec 2018 contract award. The editor over there at FlightGlobal.com really doesn't know how fiscal years work does he/she?