AF Light Air Support Aircraft

[tac airlifter]

27 minutes ago, Lawman said:

 

This might be a crazy idea.... but maybe stop committing to weapon systems that to properly employ puts you well within the WEZ of every ground based unguided weapon system you can expect to encounter.

Seriously... what is it with people thinking getting into an 50 cal vs Dshk/ZPU knife fight is fun. It’s suicidal the second the other guy has any actual training or the number of systems necessary to set up barrage/curtain fire. You’re basically hoping it’s just another dumbass in a man dress who tries to use short burst aimed fire at a 250 knot aircraft.


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There are ongoing efforts to acquire systems with greater standoff that our partners can employ cheaply.

[Standby]

13 hours ago, Tank said:

Yes, the current plan is to use past 11F pilots currently in AFSOC as the initial cadre and cross-train AFSOC 11S pilots and 12F CSO’s to them.  

How many 11Fs are still in AFSOC?

[war007afa]

4 hours ago, Lawman said:

 

 

This might be a crazy idea.... but maybe stop committing to weapon systems that to properly employ puts you well within the WEZ of every ground based unguided weapon system you can expect to encounter.

Seriously... what is it with people thinking getting into an 50 cal vs Dshk/ZPU knife fight is fun. It’s suicidal the second the other guy has any actual training or the number of systems necessary to set up barrage/curtain fire. You’re basically hoping it’s just another dumbass in a man dress who tries to use short burst aimed fire at a 250 knot aircraft.


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You should see the AAF helicopter guys do this.  Impressive to see the "after" photos...

[Lawman]

You should see the AAF helicopter guys do this.  Impressive to see the "after" photos...

Oh I’ve seen the YouTube videos of the fixed forward 50 cal on Pavehawks. Beating zones the size of a damn football field.

Strafing is sexy.... but it’s also dumb in a world of small precision standoff. We are not a bunch of P-47s trying to shoot up the Nazi trains to prep for D-day with nothing but a bunch of 30/50 cal to rely on.

Yeah the AH-6’s do it, but there is a reason. They have to ride in on the hip of the assault force dumping rounds into a hot X LZ. Plus they’ve got the silhouette of a Volkswagen Beatle.


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[Danger41]

5 hours ago, Standby said:

How many 11Fs are still in AFSOC?

There ain’t many. That’s been one of my issues with this thing on AFSOC the whole time. The Bob’s at corporate are only interested in IFF graduates to fly it. Why? You aren’t going to be employing the thing in BFM. You aren’t going to be doing ACM. You are going to be sitting in the CAS wheel and doing strikes. If only there was some AFSOC aircraft with that skill set...

 

[Tank]

5 hours ago, Standby said:

How many 11Fs are still in AFSOC?

Between the AFRC and AD = 

10-15

[SFG]

12 minutes ago, Tank said:

Between the AFRC and AD = 

10-15

The next source would probably be AFSOC UPT T-38 guys no? Probably a lot more of those floating around.

[IDALPHA]

23 minutes ago, Tank said:

Between the AFRC and AD = 

10-15

And 6-9 of those will retired/separated in another 2 years.... Way before a Light Attack is on an Air Force ramp. 

[Tank]

29 minutes ago, IDALPHA said:

And 6-9 of those will retired/separated in another 2 years.... Way before a Light Attack is on an Air Force ramp. 

6-9 of those are in the AFRC 919th SOW, so they’ll be around a little longer than their AD counterparts.  

[Tank]

32 minutes ago, Klepto said:

The next source would probably be AFSOC UPT T-38 guys no? Probably a lot more of those floating around.

There’s a plan in place to man the LA.  

Remember, the first 5 aircraft will be going to the CAAs for training purposes and not necessarily a SOF CAS squadron.  

[tac airlifter]

3 hours ago, Klepto said:

The next source would probably be AFSOC UPT T-38 guys no? Probably a lot more of those floating around.

What skill from UPT T38s applies to SOF LA?

[Standby]

46 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

What skill from UPT T38s applies to SOF LA?

UPT builds the foundation for all military flying...so I’m going to say all of them except sim single engine work. 

[tac airlifter]

12 minutes ago, Standby said:

UPT builds the foundation for all military flying...so I’m going to say all of them except sim single engine work. 

Fair enough!  I should have asked what is unique to flying T38s that would make a T38 trained student more desireable for SOF LA?

From my POV, an experienced gunship or RPA driver would be a better fit than someone without a strike background who happened to fly 38s.  But not having flown the 38, I don’t know what I don’t know.  Ergo, I’m asking.

[Buddy Spike]

2 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

Fair enough!  I should have asked what is unique to flying T38s that would make a T38 trained student more desireable for SOF LA?

From my POV, an experienced gunship or RPA driver would be a better fit than someone without a strike background who happened to fly 38s.  But not having flown the 38, I don’t know what I don’t know.  Ergo, I’m asking.

Single seat / pilot mentality might be another benefit.  IFF also has a basic surface attack phase.  

[SFG]

28 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

Fair enough!  I should have asked what is unique to flying T38s that would make a T38 trained student more desireable for SOF LA?

From my POV, an experienced gunship or RPA driver would be a better fit than someone without a strike background who happened to fly 38s.  But not having flown the 38, I don’t know what I don’t know.  Ergo, I’m asking.

Can’t say I disagree, but that’s not how things usually work.

[viper154]

5 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Fair enough!  I should have asked what is unique to flying T38s that would make a T38 trained student more desireable for SOF LA?

From my POV, an experienced gunship or RPA driver would be a better fit than someone without a strike background who happened to fly 38s.  But not having flown the 38, I don’t know what I don’t know.  Ergo, I’m asking.

I’ve promoted the RPA expierenced dudes on this forum before, but they are getting more scarce. Most of them are 11m guys getting pulled back to their airframe, some have recat to 11U and haven’t been in a cockpit for a long time, and some were dudes that got kicked out of prior communities and probably shouldn’t be in a jet. 

There was a time period a bunch of 38 dudes went U-28s and CV-22s, I know a couple that are mid level Capt types, but to my knowledge those airframes aren’t exactly in a position to release bodies. 

Most plausible answer is probably to open up the assignment to anyone with wings, don’t place them at Cannon, and my guess would be enough people would volunteer to fly this beast with a variety of back grounds you could take a couple from all over without killing one community. 

That makes to much sense though, so they will all be at Cannon, they with drop orders on 11Fs to fly them, who will all 7 day opt. 

 

[YoungnDumb]

They could also offer it to the FAIP's, know quite a few dudes who want to fly the attack mission and have ~1000 turboprop hours already

[Standby]

6 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Fair enough!  I should have asked what is unique to flying T38s that would make a T38 trained student more desireable for SOF LA?

From my POV, an experienced gunship or RPA driver would be a better fit than someone without a strike background who happened to fly 38s.  But not having flown the 38, I don’t know what I don’t know.  Ergo, I’m asking.

The single seat mentality coupled with tactical formation experience gives them a leg up on people who have lived in the crew world. We all know the gunship is fvcking beast and does great work, but the employment dynamic is polar opposite from the one or two person interaction in a small aircraft. Nothing will ever replace experience and the AFSOC flyers with CAS stink have an infinite advantage but there is also something to be said for young, moldable minds with a whole lot of commitment ahead as well. I think the best of both worlds would be a mid-level AFSOC AC/IP who knows CAS and has a T-38 background. All of the 11Fs I know in AFSOC have either separated completely or gone to reserve units in extremely small numbers. 

I’m not sure what it is like at other UPT bases, but the FAIPs here don’t seem jazzed about anything unless it has afterburners or a 30mm poking out the front.

I am being selfish, but I would prefer the SOF LA program to be in a shitty geographic location. I think it would separate the people who think it’s a fun gig with a great NW FL view from those who love the CAS mission and are willing to homebase anywhere for it. 

I know the turboprop track is going to be a thing in the future, but I think you need a few of the LA planes or high-fidelity sims at the UPT base for screening and selection. I don’t believe a year in the T-6 will be sufficient to ID appropriate traits. 

[IDALPHA]

12 hours ago, Tank said:

6-9 of those are in the AFRC 919th SOW, so they’ll be around a little longer than their AD counterparts.  

But still not long enough to take part in the abortion the AF is bound to make in regards to getting LA full up....

[BashiChuni]

23 hours ago, Lawman said:

 

This might be a crazy idea.... but maybe stop committing to weapon systems

i haven't seen any commitment at all from big blue. rather i've seen cold feet and indecision.

LA has a role to play in low intensity conflicts. and you're right 50 cal vs Dshk/ZPU wouldn't be fun...but that wont be the first option to destroy those targets (obviously).

AFSOC 11F's are pretty much gone. 38 trained guys are becoming more scarce as well with no 38 trained students back filling them in greater numbers.

no reason t-1 trained dudes couldnt get trained for this skill set. i think a t-6 light attack focused top off course would make a lot of sense.

[Clark Griswold]

3 hours ago, Standby said:

The single seat mentality coupled with tactical formation experience gives them a leg up on people who have lived in the crew world. We all know the gunship is fvcking beast and does great work, but the employment dynamic is polar opposite from the one or two person interaction in a small aircraft. Nothing will ever replace experience and the AFSOC flyers with CAS stink have an infinite advantage but there is also something to be said for young, moldable minds with a whole lot of commitment ahead as well. I think the best of both worlds would be a mid-level AFSOC AC/IP who knows CAS and has a T-38 background. All of the 11Fs I know in AFSOC have either separated completely or gone to reserve units in extremely small numbers. 

I’m not sure what it is like at other UPT bases, but the FAIPs here don’t seem jazzed about anything unless it has afterburners or a 30mm poking out the front.

I am being selfish, but I would prefer the SOF LA program to be in a shitty geographic location. I think it would separate the people who think it’s a fun gig with a great NW FL view from those who love the CAS mission and are willing to homebase anywhere for it. 

I know the turboprop track is going to be a thing in the future, but I think you need a few of the LA planes or high-fidelity sims at the UPT base for screening and selection. I don’t believe a year in the T-6 will be sufficient to ID appropriate traits. 

For my two unrequested cents, I think LA should (if it happens and is beyond a BPC building mission) keep the pre-requisites fairly wide and recruit from the whole of the AF flying community.  

The U-2 is a good model, different mission and a difficult plane to master with high level of expertise demanded, but repeating that model in LA would keep the net wide to gather talent and has a precedent for success.  The aircraft (LA) is / would be inexpensive enough that a full syllabus teaching the attack mission set from basics to advanced could be accomplished, dudes would not have to come with previous experience to lessen the required flight/sim hours in an LA program, IMHO and very scientific bar napkin calculations.

Keeping the door open for dudes who have the talent, developed skills, demonstrated ability in their first assignment but their time / scores at UPT didn't set them up for an Attack aircraft assignment right out of the chute seems reasonable.  They would likely not be the majority of LA crew but methinks they could be a reasonable percentage without putting risk to a potential LA program in terms of training required to achieve required proficiency.

Not familiar with the IFF syllabus but 30 missions at 1.5 hours each and guessing at $1500 per flight hour if the LA is ever bought is the AT-6 or A-29 comes to about $67,500 in flight hour cost, not sure what the expendables  would come but guessing $10k per student seems reasonable.  Other costs would come in also (range fees, contractor OPFOR support, travel costs for off-station missions, etc..) but I think you could probably train a crew for about $100-125K in a 30 to 35 mission syllabus with AT-6/A-29.  Scorpion would be more but worth it...  

That cost is low enough that if you had someone from a non-tactical background and 30 to 35 flying missions is a lot training, seems to me (from an outsider's view) you should be able to accept a capable student and train to standards, regardless of background.

Do you think, would 30 to 35 missions in an FTU syllabus cover Surface Attack, CAS, ISR focused missions, etc... to an acceptable degree for initial quals?

 

[viper154]

1 hour ago, Clark Griswold said:

.  

That cost is low enough that if you had someone from a non-tactical background and 30 to 35 flying missions is a lot training, seems to me (from an outsider's view) you should be able to accept a capable student and train to standards, regardless of background.

Do you think, would 30 to 35 missions in an FTU syllabus cover Surface Attack, CAS, ISR focused missions, etc... to an acceptable degree for initial quals?

 

Disclaimer: I have no idea how long a 11F syllabus is. 

Your average RPA pilot (18x) gets about 3 months of T-6 instrument SIMs and about 30 events (sims+”flights”) in a MQ-9 to be CMR. Keeping in mind that is basic transit procedures, basic ISR/CAS, and with the autopilot hold modes always on. No formation, no takeoff/landing, and not ever putting their ass on the line  

Take a average ish UPT grad or heavy cross flow dude and throw them in a LA program and I would say 30-40 flights and another 30 or so of SIMs would probably get you in the ball park. Assumption being they have a good basic pilot back ground,  a CSO in the back running the sensors/mission set, and a expierenced Flight lead. 

 

Edited September 12, 2018 by viper154

[Cooter]

15 hours ago, Standby said:

I am being selfish, but I would prefer the SOF LA program to be in a shitty geographic location. I think it would separate the people who think it’s a fun gig with a great NW FL

Nailed it!  Hitters ONLY apply.  I want the guys who want it for the mission not because it sounds cool or the location is great.  I'd prefer there be no focus other than building a sustainable cadre for the future of the program.  The last thing you want to happen with this program is it gets turned into some kind of goddamn flying club and screws the pooch for being a sustainable program well into the future. 

In a perfect world you'd put it at an austere location (outfield of Eglin...WAY out) and build a bunch of steely eyed killers to carry the reputation well into the future. 

Who knows...

Cooter

[Tank]

3 hours ago, Cooter said:

Nailed it!  Hitters ONLY apply.  I want the guys who want it for the mission not because it sounds cool or the location is great.  I'd prefer there be no focus other than building a sustainable cadre for the future of the program.  The last thing you want to happen with this program is it gets turned into some kind of goddamn flying club and screws the pooch for being a sustainable program well into the future. 

In a perfect world you'd put it at an austere location (outfield of Eglin...WAY out) and build a bunch of steely eyed killers to carry the reputation well into the future. 

Who knows...

Cooter

What are you two smoking because I want some?

Place it in an austere location (Cannon)?  How would you build a sustainable cadre for the future in an austere location?  That will not help with USAF retention or be TFI sustainable with AFRC.  There’s a reason why the 2 SOS is located at Hurlburt and why there is no AFRC squadron at Cannon.  

There are already a bunch of “steely eyed killers” at Hurlburt and Duke that can and will hack the mission.  

Edited September 12, 2018 by Tank

[Clark Griswold]

On basing, there's no need for self-inflicted wounds...

Distribute evenly across the CONUS looking for joint basing to be near training partners.  

For the ARC, same story, look for units/bases with consistent training opportunities.  UTAs at those units should be coordinated with customers so a DSG at any drill could fly a solid training mission rather than attending a Green Dot class.

Figure a buy of 110 tails:

20 to the FTU/Lead Wing (Associate Unit), 90 distributed in 10's to 9 Wings, 5 AD & 4 ARC.