AF Light Air Support Aircraft

[SFG]

9 hours ago, Cooter said:

The last thing you want to happen with this program is it gets turned into some kind of goddamn flying club and screws the pooch for being a sustainable program well into the future.

Yes, I hear the U-2 program is pretty terrible 😂.

[MC5Wes]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/23548/how-u-s-taxpayers-are-spending-1-8b-for-afghanistan-to-fly-a-couple-dozen-a-29-attack-planes

[RegularJoe]

1 hour ago, MC5Wes said:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/23548/how-u-s-taxpayers-are-spending-1-8b-for-afghanistan-to-fly-a-couple-dozen-a-29-attack-planes

How U.S. Taxpayers Are Spending $1.8B For Afghanistan To Fly A Couple Dozen A-29 Attack Planes

The estimated annual sustainment costs alone are more than twice what the U.S. Air Force pays to operate a squadron of F-16s for a year.

Quote

 

In 2013, the RAND Corporation evaluated the costs associated with operating and maintaining U.S. Air Force units flying F-16 Viper fighter jets, which are much more expensive to operate and sustain than the A-29. Using Fiscal Year 2010 dollars, the think tank estimated that it cost the Air Force approximately $63.6 million – closer to $70 million in 2018 dollars – to keep Alabama Air National Guard's 187th Fighter Wing, which has around 22 Block 30 F-16C/D Viper fighter jets, running for 12 months. 

Using RAND's figures, the annual operating cost of a U.S. Air Force F-16 squadron in 2013, adjusted for inflation, was less than half that of what the Afghan Air Force could find itself spending to operate an equivalent number of A-29s for a year. The annual ICS costs alone are comparable to the costs the 100th Fighter Squadron was incurring when the think tank conducted its study

 

 

So based on this information we should buy US Pilots more F-16's then right

 

[hindsight2020]

Ah yes, "the military should only be staffed by childless people/garrison people shouldn't be allowed to serve in uniform" canard. Couldn't find my salt shaker for lunch today, thanks for the glove save! LOL 

[MC5Wes]

Speaking of light aircraft. When did the Air Force pick up some Bell 412 Helicopters?

I'm about to retire and on the Sierra Nevada web page they are looking for Pilots and Mechanics for Hurlburt Field.

https://snc.wd1.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/SNC_External_Career_Site/job/Mary-Esther-FL/Pilot-Rotor-Wing--Bell-412----Clearance-Required_R0006174

 

 

[Breckey]

When the 6 SOS had the RW-FID mission they contracted out their 412 flights to get their pilots qualified on them. Countries like Thailand and Indonesia use Bell 412s, which were some of the JCET customers.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Breckey

[Clark Griswold]

A-29s made by SNC selected by Nigeria and approved for sale:

https://alert5.com/2018/12/01/sierra-nevada-corp-given-contract-to-supply-12-a-29s-to-nigeria/

But we still don't have one after 12+ years of "studying" it...

[IDALPHA]

1 hour ago, Clark Griswold said:

But we still don't have one after 12+ years of "studying" it...

You surprised bruh?!

[Clark Griswold]

59 minutes ago, IDALPHA said:

You surprised bruh?!

Unfortunately no but I wonder if this with the training / cooperation done with the Nigerian AF if this will influence / encourage the AF on whether or not to actually acquire our own LAAR and then if many of our allies / partners are flying A-29s, will that shut out the AT6?

As the Scorpion is no longer in contention for this potential ACC led acquisition program, I am neutral-ish on the turboprop contenders  but if it were up to me, I would select the AT6.

LAE has finished with Dec being slated for RFPs and Sept 19 for selection.  Low chance IMO but better than no chance one will be acquired.

https://www.janes.com/article/82236/us-air-force-releases-timeline-for-light-attack-aircraft-procurement

But it has some fans in Congress:

https://www.airforcetimes.com/opinion/commentary/2018/09/09/commentary-the-us-air-force-needs-a-light-attack-aircraft/

Who the hell knows what they'll do, I was surprised when the Airbus tanker was first selected over the Boeing back 2008 and even though that lasted for about 10 seconds till Boeing protested and wrested it from Airbus it was / is an example of the AF doing the unexpected sometimes.

[YoungnDumb]

Honestly at this point I'm giving up hope on the light attack thing, nobody high up is willing to pull the trigger on it, and at this point it feels like we're just spending money to spend money.

[DirkDiggler]

19 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

A-29s made by SNC selected by Nigeria and approved for sale:

https://alert5.com/2018/12/01/sierra-nevada-corp-given-contract-to-supply-12-a-29s-to-nigeria/

But we still don't have one after 12+ years of "studying" it...

You’ve got a better chance of seeing Jesus blow Buddha than anyone in the CAF flying a USAF Light Attack in the foreseeable future.  Barring some major shift in either USAF mentality or leadership the AF is going to continue to drag it’s feet on this until it eventually goes away.

[Clark Griswold]

Agreed with all sentiments that the chance of LAAR actually happening is low and about a snowball’s chance in hell if ACC is the MAJCOM to make that call but is AFSOC still a realistic possibility to acquire a LAAR?
Core functions are not technically still doctrine so could AFSOC just make a play for having another fires platform? Is there the appetite for this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tac airlifter]

1 hour ago, Clark Griswold said:

Agreed with all sentiments that the chance of LAAR actually happening is low and about a snowball’s chance in hell if ACC is the MAJCOM to make that call but is AFSOC still a realistic possibility to acquire a LAAR?
Core functions are not technically still doctrine so could AFSOC just make a play for having another fires platform? Is there the appetite for this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No.  AFSOC not buying unless CAF buys.

[Danger41]

Basic AFSOC C-130 game plan. Big Blue buys them, and AFSOC slaps all the fancy stuff on them. Exact same for Light Attack.

[Clark Griswold]

Copy all and resignedly agreed.

Still rooting for that snowball in hell though...

 

 

[Prozac]

6 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

 Barring some major shift in either USAF mentality or leadership the AF is going to continue to drag it’s feet on this until it eventually goes away.

Seems to also be Big Blue’s strategy for the pilot shortage. Come to think of it, this the apparent de facto mentality for any number of problems facing the AF. 

[MooseClub]

9 hours ago, Prozac said:

Seems to also be Big Blue’s strategy for the pilot shortage. Come to think of it, this the apparent de facto mentality for any number of problems facing the AF. 

Shack

 

[Tank]

23 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

No.  AFSOC not buying unless CAF buys.

Wrong:

AFSOC might be lead command soon because there’s not enough money in the FYDP to support an ACC buy.  

AFSOC doesn’t need as many LA to support their designated mission sets and the money in the FYDP will cover an entire AFSOC buy.  

Edited December 3, 2018 by Tank

[Clark Griswold]

Yup.

Consider a 60 airplane buy, figuring acquisition per tail at $20 mil a tail for fly away cost, operation at $2,000 per hour (likely less but plan conservatively) and sustainment at $300k per tail in depot mx, logistics, training expendables and other costs (again very conservative).

Program in 750 hours per tail per FY (fly it a lot) and that groks out to $90 mil in flight hour costs and $18 mil in sustainment costs, plus Murphy's Law costs (guess that at 15% extra) so that sums up to just over $124 mil.  

Spread the acquisition, FTU and other start up costs over 3 FYs and that's about $420 mil (add another 5% per tail when acquiring)

Not chump change but affordable when you consider that if you replaced LAAR in CAPs for 4/5th Gens when you could (AOR permitting) - you come up with the money very to pay for it quickly because it is so much cheaper to fly than 4/5th Gens.

At $40k per flight hour (figuring in tanker support) generically for 4/5th Gens, to get the $124 mil per FY to afford the LAAR you would need to replace about 3,100 flight hours from the 4/5th Gen fleets.  

But since you're not flying those fighters to do those missions, you don't need to fly those tankers so in reality its not even that many hours, split it between the fighter and the tanker and now you only need to cut 1,550 fighter and 1,550 tanker flight hours and you've found your money to pay for your new and very useful, affordable and relevant LAAR's per FY operational costs.

What you would have to cut / reprogram to acquire in those 3 FYs assuming your rich uncle doesn't come thru with an unexpected windfall is the $420 mil question... likely you should retire your 5% of your oldest / brokest 4th Gens and that would likely pay for all if not most of it.  

Another cost saver would be to not send selectees for the LAAR program to IFF if they are not already graduates and train them in their mission fundamentals in the LAAR, frees up another slot for dudes selected for fighters.

Just buy one AF... the math will work itself out, morale will improve and this will be one step towards getting your mojo back...

*Posted in the naive hope someone who is important in the AF with enough authority and clout will read and realize we don't have to take an elephant rifle every time we go hunting.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Clark Griswold

[tac airlifter]

12 hours ago, Tank said:

Wrong:

AFSOC might be lead command soon because there’s not enough money in the FYDP to support an ACC buy.  

AFSOC doesn’t need as many LA to support their designated mission sets and the money in the FYDP will cover an entire AFSOC buy.  

Are you confident enough to bet a bottle of scotch?  

[Tank]

45 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

Are you confident enough to bet a bottle of scotch?  

Yes

[tac airlifter]

1 hour ago, Tank said:

Yes

Excellent.  Terms?  

I think AFSOC still has no LAA by 2021.  Anything past that is vaporware anyway.  I’ll collect (or you will!) Jan 2021.

[Stitch]

On 12/1/2018 at 2:22 PM, DirkDiggler said:

 Barring some major shift in either USAF mentality or leadership the AF is going to continue to drag it’s feet on this until it eventually goes away.

Or just kick the can down the road for the next CSAF/MAJCOM/somebody else to deal with it...

[Tank]

6 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Excellent.  Terms?  

I think AFSOC still has no LAA by 2021.  Anything past that is vaporware anyway.  I’ll collect (or you will!) Jan 2021.

I win if AFSOC takes possession of 1x LA aircraft (6SOS, Combat Aviation Advisor, included).

You win if AFSOC doesn’t.  

Easy bet!

[BashiChuni]

as an addicted gambler i want in this somehow