AF Light Air Support Aircraft

[Tank]

https://othjournal.com/2020/04/16/beyond-advice-operationalizing-the-light-attack-aircraft/amp/

[Clark Griswold]

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/dubai-air-show/2021/11/14/thailand-becomes-first-foreign-customer-of-at-6-light-attack-aircraft/


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[Clark Griswold]

One more thing

Supersized COIN aircraft

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2021-11-14/calidus-unveils-giant-attack-aircraft?amp

https://www.flightglobal.com/dubai-2021/calidus-unveils-heavily-armed-b-350-turboprop/146370.article

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/air-warfare/dubai-airshow-2021-calidus-bulks-up-with-b-350/

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[HuggyU2]

A good article by the late Robert Dorr on "light attack" in the early turbine-powered years.  

https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/the-a-37-dragonfly-in-vietnam/

Although based on the Tweet, it is quite a bit different despite what many believe.  

One of the guys in my UPT class did his 2nd assignment in the Dragonfly at Howard AFB, and was there when Operation Just Cause went down.  Pretty cool that he got about 20 combat sorties shooting Willy Pete rockets at the Panamanian Guard.  

There is currently only one A-37B flying in North America. 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by HuggyU2

[Springer]

23 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

One of the guys in my UPT class did his 2nd assignment in the Dragonfly at Howard AFB, and was there when Operation Just Cause went down.  Pretty cool that he got about 20 combat sorties shooting Willy Pete rockets at the Panamanian Guard.  

There is currently only one A-37B flying in North America. 

Most OA-37/OV-10 squadrons back then were made up of 1st assignment UPT grads with a guarantee of a fighter as their follow on.  Not a bad deal.

Hondurans went from F-86's to imported A-37's in '84.

[Blue]

On 11/21/2021 at 10:57 AM, HuggyU2 said:

There is currently only one A-37B flying in North America. 

I suppose if someone wanted to get a second one flying, this is the best opportunity.  Only $129k, although you're obviously going to need more than that to get it flying again.

https://courtesyaircraft.com/aircraft/n496wm-cessna-a-37b-dragonfly/

[Clark Griswold]

10 hours ago, Springer said:

Most OA-37/OV-10 squadrons back then were made up of 1st assignment UPT grads with a guarantee of a fighter as their follow on.  Not a bad deal.

Hondurans went from F-86's to imported A-37's in '84.

Concur

Buy 150 LAAR.  50 for ACC, AFSOC and ANG (station at ANG MQ-9 Reaper bases). 

Use as an accumulator to absorb production pipeline from SUPT and keep warm till B courses open up for ACC, AFSOC establishes its own program, ANG gets the FTU and distributes as capable with MQ-9 wings, not a dual qual program but a component of the Attack Wing(s). 

Stateside mission is to train often with the JTAC / TACP / SOF community and keep the AF still primed for the LIC, COIN, Grey Zone fights we will get sucked into like it or not. 

File that under shit that ain't gonna happen but whatever, it's BO . net

 

Look at the size of the beast, Calidus B-350

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Clark Griswold

[Springer]

22 hours ago, Blue said:

I suppose if someone wanted to get a second one flying, this is the best opportunity.  Only $129k, although you're obviously going to need more than that to get it flying again.

https://courtesyaircraft.com/aircraft/n496wm-cessna-a-37b-dragonfly/

I beg to differ but someone once told me any "fighter" that you can pee into the cockpit from outside isn't worth flying.

[Props]

On 5/26/2021 at 11:35 PM, bfargin said:

Any idea if they’ve completed their demonstration? Is the program canx?

[Danger41]

2 hours ago, Props said:

Any idea if they’ve completed their demonstration? Is the program canx?

The demonstration flights completed last summer and the final decision is getting made in the next couple of months.

[Tank]

On 2/2/2022 at 11:32 AM, Props said:

Any idea if they’ve completed their demonstration? Is the program canx?

Choosing between these three…

[Tank]

On 2/2/2022 at 11:32 AM, Props said:

Any idea if they’ve completed their demonstration? Is the program canx?

The MC-145 is surprisingly a very capable AO aircraft.  

[Lawman]

The MC-145 is surprisingly a very capable AO aircraft.  

If the last 20 years of coin have demonstrated anything it’s that having the pointy nose and looking sexy is the least important factor in the stack.


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[kaputt]

As much as I would love to see it, I cannot fathom in any way the modern Air Force choosing a tailwheel aircraft. 
 

So it’s between the AT-6 and the MC-145, and let’s be honest it’s going to be the AT-6 because that’s how lobbying and our acquisitions system works. 

[Best-22]

If we're placing bets:

 

It's going to be the air tractor. I'm just ignorant enough about this program to have total confidence. 

[kaputt]

1 hour ago, Best-22 said:

If we're placing bets:

 

It's going to be the air tractor. I'm just ignorant enough about this program to have total confidence. 

I do hope you're right. If part of this plan is to export a product to partner nations, that airframe makes sense in a lot of ways. 

[Tank]

6 hours ago, kaputt said:

I do hope you're right. If part of this plan is to export a product to partner nations, that airframe makes sense in a lot of ways. 

There is no plan to export the product to partner nations with Armed Overwatch.  

My guess is it’s going to be the AT-6…

1.) Every USAF & Navy pilot & WSO has flown it so the squadrons can be filled quickly.  2.) The training pipeline is the shortest.  3.) The production line is open and they can be produced quickly. 4.) Textron has deep products.  
 

The AT-802 or MC-145 should be the winner though based on capabilities. 

[tac airlifter]

I don’t think it will be the AT-6.  AO is a U-28 replacement so the advantage of “filling squadrons quickly” is negated by already having a designated manning source to draw from.

Also the AT-6 looks like it sucks for this mission.  Just my outside opinion, I’m not involved in AO.

[ClearedHot]

11 hours ago, Tank said:

The MC-145 is surprisingly a very capable AO aircraft.  

Also non-complient with with the OTA in MULTIPLE categories.

22 minutes ago, Tank said:

There is no plan to export the product to partner nations with Armed Overwatch.  
 

Incorrect...

22 minutes ago, Tank said:

My guess is it’s going to be the AT-6…

1.) Every USAF & Navy pilot & WSO has flown it so the squadrons can be filled quickly.  2.) The training pipeline is the shortest.  3.) The production line is open and they can be produced quickly. 4.) Textron has deep products. 

We shall see, also non-complient in at least one category.  Having flown AT-6B and taken it to the dirt, I think there are significant hurdles to overcome if you want to operate this platform austere.  Also, it simply does not have the legs needed to change the AOW paradigm. 

22 minutes ago, Tank said:

There is no plan to export the product to partner nations with Armed Overwatch.  

My guess is it’s going to be the AT-6…

1.) Every USAF & Navy pilot & WSO has flown it so the squadrons can be filled quickly.  2.) The training pipeline is the shortest.  3.) The production line is open and they can be produced quickly. 4.) Textron has deep products.  
 

The AT-802 or MC-145 should be the winner though based on capabilities. 

In a recent exercise the AT-802 flew an unrefueled 8.2 sortie and landed with 1.5 reserve.  Three sensors, monstrous weapons load, and burns less hourly fuel of the non-compliant MC-145.  Also, the AT-802 carries all weapons the MC-145 can plus some including gun.

Unfortunately, politics will play greatly into the decision which is NOT how OTAs are supposed to play out.

[DirkDiggler]

I'd put $5 on the MC-145 being the winner, at least initially (before what sounds like an inevitable dispute by another bidder). 

  Has actual austere landing capability, cargo ramp/door if you want to carry things, AFSOC already has previous experience with the platform.  And perhaps most importantly....drum roll....it's the platform that LOOKS closet to a -130, which unfortunately carries a lot of sway with important people on the third floor.

Caveat: I'm in no way involved or associated with AO.  

[Tank]

35 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

I don’t think it will be the AT-6.  AO is a U-28 replacement so the advantage of “filling squadrons quickly” is negated by already having a designated manning source to draw from.

Also the AT-6 looks like it sucks for this mission.  Just my outside opinion, I’m not involved in AO.

I agree, the AT-6 is not a U-28 replacement but politics will play a huge factor!

 

At this rate, SOCOM will choose an aircraft in 2022 and our “rapid acquisition” process means nothing will happen until 2027!!

[Tank]

12 minutes ago, DirkDiggler said:

I'd put $5 on the MC-145 being the winner, at least initially (before what sounds like an inevitable dispute by another bidder). 

  Has actual austere landing capability, cargo ramp/door if you want to carry things, AFSOC already has previous experience with the platform.  And perhaps most importantly....drum roll....it's the platform that LOOKS closet to a -130, which unfortunately carries a lot of sway with important people on the third floor.

Caveat: I'm in no way involved or associated with AO.  

Not a tail-dragger (AT-802). 
Not an ejection-seat aircraft (AT-6).  
 

I’ve flown the C-145 and it is NOT a comfortable aircraft to fly but it’s multi-engine and fills the C-130 mafia niche’.  

[ClearedHot]

 

3 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

I'd put $5 on the MC-145 being the winner, at least initially (before what sounds like an inevitable dispute by another bidder).

New rules that I am guessing a lot of folks don't understand.  This is an OTA so the government can do what it wants after the initial down-select and there is no opportunity for protest....they can even go outside the Tier 1 requirements.  FYSA MC-145 misses SEVERAL Tier 1 requirements.  That being said Congress can certainly review the outcome.  You might review the last NDAA where Congress specifically called out the program and delayed funding allocation until the completion of an OSD/CAPE study that should be complete next month.

"Dear Congress, AFSOC here, remember that plane we bought a few years ago then DIVESTED most of them, well we would like to purchase 75 more...yes we are aware it would require restarting a now discontinued production line in a foreign country because there are not enough existing platforms to convert for this program.  Also, yes we fully understand the logistical train will be completely dependent on the whims of a foreign nation.  Yes there is plan to do final assembly in the U.S. but 80% of the production, touch labor and highly skilled jobs will be done in a foreign country."

For the record - 100% of the AT-802 would be built in the U.S....mainly Oklahoma... home of the ranking member of the SASC and a key member of the HASC.

[Props]

6 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

 

For the record - 100% of the AT-802 would be built in the U.S....mainly Oklahoma... home of the ranking member of the SASC and a key member of the HASC.

That would be cool, I also read “the Oklahoma Air Guard would receive some of the planes too” 

I’d bet they’re talking about the MC12 unit down in OKC. 

[DirkDiggler]

8 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

 

New rules that I am guessing a lot of folks don't understand.  This is an OTA so the government can do what it wants after the initial down-select and there is no opportunity for protest....they can even go outside the Tier 1 requirements.  FYSA MC-145 misses SEVERAL Tier 1 requirements.  That being said Congress can certainly review the outcome.  You might review the last NDAA where Congress specifically called out the program and delayed funding allocation until the completion of an OSD/CAPE study that should be complete next month.

"Dear Congress, AFSOC here, remember that plane we bought a few years ago then DIVESTED most of them, well we would like to purchase 75 more...yes we are aware it would require restarting a now discontinued production line in a foreign country because there are not enough existing platforms to convert for this program.  Also, yes we fully understand the logistical train will be completely dependent on the whims of a foreign nation.  Yes there is plan to do final assembly in the U.S. but 80% of the production, touch labor and highly skilled jobs will be done in a foreign country."

For the record - 100% of the AT-802 would be built in the U.S....mainly Oklahoma... home of the ranking member of the SASC and a key member of the HASC.

Didn't know that about no protests regarding OTA, learn something new everyday.  That said, I'll stick with my $5 on the -145, not for any rationale reasons on AFSOC's part mind you, but really for the previous emotional reasons listed above.  I'll be happy to be wrong about that if it gets our guys a more capable platform.