AF Light Air Support Aircraft

[Danger41]

For context, I’m 6’2” and pretty broad shoulders and fit comfortably in the back seat for the demonstrations. The front seat is much bigger. I’d say the front is about equivalent to the Eagle cockpit, maybe bigger. 
 

One real interesting part that is mentioned on their website and works great is that the avionics and mission system was developed with Garmin so data passage from mission systems to navigation and vice versa is all integrated so that is very nice. 

[edf8fde]

Any update on if T-1 tracks can drop this when it becomes available?

[nunya]

1 hour ago, edf8fde said:

Any update on if T-1 tracks can drop this when it becomes available?

I don't know anything, but No.

[Danger41]

We discussed this during the demo and such and unless something has changed, T-1 trained pilots WILL be eligible for the AOW aircraft. Hell, at least half of the Draco dudes that will TX eventually are T-1 trained guys. 
 

It was very deliberate to have a 38 trained guy and a T-1 trained guy as the demo pilots for this exact reason. 
 

I have no clue if it’ll stay that way but good luck filling out the squadrons purely with T-38/T-7 guys that also have to go to their traditional assignments.

[viper154]

There are 4 U-28 squadrons and the MC-12 at OKC, the initial plan was to transition those aircrew to the new airplane. I would say 60%-70% of those pilots are T-1 dudes. That info is dated though. 
 

I’m not a smart man but from what I hear there aren’t a lot of excess 11Fs around to change airplanes and stand up 5 squadrons + school house. 

[nsplayr]

I have to imagine T-1 track dudes will be eligible for the AT-802.

Another issue I raised with a friend in the community is this: Draco is 2x pilots, 1x CSO all times 4 squadrons. AT-802 is 1x P and 1x C...so there's either gonna be a lot of excess pilots that need to fuck off and find a new home, or you're gonna need a bunch more CSOs, depending on exactly how many -802 tails replace XX number of U-28s at each location.

Our conclusion is this has not been well thought out at all yet given that Skytruck would have had the same crew complement and that was potentially a viable option until the selection was made recently.

I'm sure it'll get ironed out...but the road may be bumpy in terms of right-sizing the squadrons & manning mix. If/when the time comes always remember that the grass is greener in the Guard 🍺

Edited August 3, 2022 by nsplayr

[Biff_T]

 

 

Sexy!

I feel like uncle Rico asking to be put back in looking at that thing.  

 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by heloboy
Coach put me back in!

[nunya]

So T-1 dudes will go to the 802 because staffing, not because T-1 training is the right training for a single-pilot mission. We'd be better off leaving them in T-6s longer and giving them T-6B/C training.  We could call it UPT 2.5.

Oh, and not only will the AF have to compete with the airlines at the end of pilot commitments, they'll have to compete with SEAT and ag jobs.  😆 CalFire and its subs thank you for your 2000 hours in type.  

Edited August 3, 2022 by nunya

[tac airlifter]

Absolutely no one cares if pilots are T1 vs T38 trained regarding AO transition.  It’s interesting to me this would even be asked, but I’m old.  I recall being young and UPT was all consuming.  Here’s my advice: if you find yourself in a community like SOF which takes from multiple tracks, the moment you arrive nobody will ever care again where you came from. All opportunities are equally available and 100% depend on how you perform starting now. It’s beautiful, embrace it.  There will be additional training required to convert pilots into a single seat mentality, but this is a surmountable challenge.

CSO ratio question is a nascent problem I expect to grow.

[nunya]

1 hour ago, tac airlifter said:

Absolutely no one cares if pilots are T1 vs T38 trained regarding AO transition.

Transition from Draco is one thing in the short term.  That’s not much of a hurdle and not really what I’m talking about. You’ll have freshly winged Lts soon and the original post I replied to referenced tracks and drops. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by nunya

[slapticles]

185th in OKC is hiring CSO's if anyone reading this is interested.

[tac airlifter]

3 hours ago, nunya said:

Transition from Draco is one thing in the short term.  That’s not much of a hurdle and not really what I’m talking about. You’ll have freshly winged Lts soon and the original post I replied to referenced tracks and drops. 

Valid, and my reply wasn’t exactly to you.  Imperfect communication on a message board, the struggle is real!

I’m personably less concerned about the transition to single pilot ops (although it will require training) than using a TW.  It’s not rocket science, but it’s counterintuitive juxtaposed against T6 training, incurring risk to force.  A surmountable challenge, but one requiring deliberate effort.  

[Best-22]

On 8/3/2009 at 9:25 PM, 08Dawg said:

Nah, give me the armed crop duster any day! Taildraggers are more fun.

Damn, this guy nailed it 13 years ago.

[BashiChuni]

8 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Valid, and my reply wasn’t exactly to you.  Imperfect communication on a message board, the struggle is real!

I’m personably less concerned about the transition to single pilot ops (although it will require training) than using a TW.  It’s not rocket science, but it’s counterintuitive juxtaposed against T6 training, incurring risk to force.  A surmountable challenge, but one requiring deliberate effort.  

Shack. There will be ground loops and other TW specific problems. Knowing the mentality of AFSOC and who is in command/taking over command it will be interesting to see how those incidents are handled. I have a guess which way it’ll go…

but yes nothing some top off TW training can’t fix. The below average pilots will have more of a problem hiding in a TW 

[nsplayr]

3 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

Knowing the mentality of AFSOC and who is in command/taking over command it will be interesting to see how those incidents are handled. I have a guess which way it’ll go…

💯💯

Giving a brand new pilot & young CSO a 16,000 lb trail dragger armed to the freaking teeth with 6-9 different weapons, all to fly lower than snake-shit to land blacked out on a dirt road on NVGs sounds great, unless you have a risk averse senior leader who punished predictable mistakes and mishaps with diapers for all. Hope it works out!

[Standby]

10 hours ago, nsplayr said:

💯💯

Giving a brand new pilot & young CSO a 16,000 lb trail dragger armed to the freaking teeth with 6-9 different weapons, all to fly lower than snake-shit to land blacked out on a dirt road on NVGs sounds great, unless you have a risk averse senior leader who punished predictable mistakes and mishaps with diapers for all. Hope it works out!

That sounds like the perfect mission profile a newly-minted Lt (with no mutual support) who just went through a gutted UPT syllabus…what could go wrong?

[fire4effect]

14 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

Shack. There will be ground loops and other TW specific problems. Knowing the mentality of AFSOC and who is in command/taking over command it will be interesting to see how those incidents are handled. I have a guess which way it’ll go…

but yes nothing some top off TW training can’t fix. The below average pilots will have more of a problem hiding in a TW 

 

11 hours ago, nsplayr said:

💯💯

Giving a brand new pilot & young CSO a 16,000 lb trail dragger armed to the freaking teeth with 6-9 different weapons, all to fly lower than snake-shit to land blacked out on a dirt road on NVGs sounds great, unless you have a risk averse senior leader who punished predictable mistakes and mishaps with diapers for all. Hope it works out!

If you want a good read on the risk and how to mitigate it talk to any AG Flying company out there. Out in East Arkansas a company many years ago used to give a "check ride" that consisted of watching someone do high speed ground runs up and down the strip (to see how they handled the aircraft on the runway) with some take offs and landings thrown in. Most of the AG strips were asphalt parallel to grass. Take off heavily loaded from the asphalt and land on the grass. Grass was more forgiving on landings and WAY better mitigating tire wear given the number of take offs and landing inherent in that business.

[nsplayr]

Yea agreed with @Standby, not even a wingman, but truly a 1-of-1 alone and unafraid.

Don’t get me wrong, the kids will figure it out of given the opportunity by AFSOC leadership to make some mistakes along the way and learn from them. I have no doubt about their dedication. Draco had a spate of tail strikes early on and that aircraft is not particularly difficult to fly. I just don’t want everyone to get canned and have to wear diapers when problems inevitably occur and obviously I don’t want to see anyone get hurt.

I am more critical of the concept in general; I think the AO requirements made a ton of sense for 2004 but in 2022, I would have written them differently if the intent was to replace Draco, continue to mow the grass on VEOs, but also play a role in MCO ops in EUCOM and PACOM. Maybe that’s not the intent but IMHO it should be.

Forward fuel & arm off of some dirt road in shithole country X because we don’t have basing just doesn’t strike me as the majority of our weight of effort going forward. Hell, we didn’t need that too often during 20+ years of GWOT! I would have wanted a small number of tails along the lines of how AO was written for the top tier teams to own organically, and then buy something that flys higher with much, much longer legs for the more usual AFSOC ISR with occasional strike requirements. Could have been nicely datalinked and equipped with fancy pods to assist with MCO.

My 2 cents, probably worth about that much too…

[FlyingWolf]

28 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Yea agreed with @Standby, not even a wingman, but truly a 1-of-1 alone and unafraid.

... would have wanted a small number of tails along the lines of how AO was written for the top tier teams to own organically, and then buy something that flys higher with much, much longer legs for the more usual AFSOC ISR with occasional strike requirements. Could have been nicely datalinked and equipped with fancy pods to assist with MCO.

My 2 cents, probably worth about that much too…

My personal conjecture/anecdote supported theory:

AO is one of Slife's moves to try to end the AC-130.

[tac airlifter]

31 minutes ago, FlyingWolf said:

My personal conjecture/anecdote supported theory:

AO is one of Slife's moves to try to end the AC-130.

AO is a U28 replacement, not gunships.  No plan for gunship crews to cross train.  Why do you think that?

[ClearedHot]

30 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

AO is a U28 replacement, not gunships.  No plan for gunship crews to cross train.  Why do you think that?

Because Slife has REPEATEDLY floated the idea...OFFICIALLY! 

Slife hates the gunship guys, no shit thinks they are stone cold killers without any morals.  When the rest of USAF was standing down for Wokism training the gunship community had another stand down to reflect on all the killing they've done.

He is also floating the idea of making the all the gunship kit roll on roll off so he stick in on an MC and they can do CAS on demand.  What could possibly go wrong.

This is what happens when you put a non-combat cud chewers in charge.

[Lawman]

Because Slife has REPEATEDLY floated the idea...OFFICIALLY! 
Slife hates the gunship guys, no shit thinks they are stone cold killers without any morals.  When the rest of USAF was standing down for Wokism training the gunship community had another stand down to reflect on all the killing they've done.
He is also floating the idea of making the all the gunship kit roll on roll off so he stick in on an MC and they can do CAS on demand.  What could possibly go wrong.
This is what happens when you put a non-combat cud chewers in charge.

As one of the Gunships primary customers, that’s an epically retarded idea… And I could give you a list of ARSOA flight leads that would tell him that to his face.

The J model AC and the EC are the single most effective enablers in the stack for a HAF.


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[Best-22]

1 hour ago, Lawman said:

As one of the Gunships primary customers, that’s an epically retarded idea… And I could give you a list of ARSOA flight leads that would tell him that to his face.

The J model AC and the EC are the single most effective enablers in the stack for a HAF.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well the thing with that is we're actually divesting the EC-130 as well.. they're using the airframes to test the MC-130 with floats idea 

[Danger41]

7 hours ago, Best-22 said:

Well the thing with that is we're actually divesting the EC-130 as well.. they're using the airframes to test the MC-130 with floats idea 

Really? I know they’re going away but ACC owns the Compass Calls and the ANG owns the Commando Solos and I find that incredibly hard to believe either of those entities would transfer them to AFSOC or AFMC for test. Especially not before the EC-37B is on the ramp.

9 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

When the rest of USAF was standing down for wokism training the gunship community had another stand down to reflect on all the killing they’ve done.     

Based on the history of naked gunner hugs, “Big Gay” stamps, and covering every square inch of their work spaces with dick drawings, I think the Gunship community has fully embraced the gayest elements of the woke movement and probably didn’t need any training on being accepting of alternative lifestyles. Truly stunning and brave. 

I kid, I kid!

Edited August 4, 2022 by Danger41

[Best-22]

55 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

Really? I know they’re going away but ACC owns the Compass Calls and the ANG owns the Commando Solos and I find that incredibly hard to believe either of those entities would transfer them to AFSOC or AFMC for test. Especially not before the EC-37B is on the ramp.

 

https://www.pa.ng.mil/Site-Management/News-Article-View/Article/3103505/193rd-special-operations-wing-preps-for-mission-conversion/

"The 193rd Special Operations Wing is undergoing a substantial transformation of its primary mission. The wing is transitioning from its legacy EC-130J Commando Solo aircraft to the MC-130J Commando II."

 

I can't find a source online that directly says the old EC's are being used for MAC testing so I guess you just have to trust me.