Short tour info

[Champ Kind]

True. See AFI 36-2110, Table 3.4.

Excerpt:

TDY 300 days or more in a consecutive 18 month period OR TDY 548 days in a consecutive 3 year period = Short Tour Credit

Edited January 16, 2011 by Champ Kind

[nsplayr]

Yea, seen that before but the way our unit deploys it would be very difficult to get that. We fall just short, and therefore will be prime targets for a short tour after doing 2 on, 3 off for 6-9 years in a row. We're gonna have dudes gone an average of 220 in 18 months but you'd pretty much have to extend twice in order to get to 300, so from our perspective the rules are BS. It works out to being gone 40% of the time, year after year.

You have to be gone either 54% of the time in an 18 month period or 49% of the time over a 36 month period to get a non-consecutive short tour; we'd all agree that's a pretty stout amount of time away from the fam. Whereas the dude who does 1 consecutive short tour in, say a 5 year period, is gone 10% of the time but is sitting pretty in the eyes of big blue.

YMMV depending on how you go TDY/deploy. I'm sure for that dude that does one 185 day tour in 10 years, or even every 5 years, the rules are great. IMHO, when the short tour list come up and there's a bill to pay, it should be total days deployed instead of all these ridiculous rules.

Edited January 16, 2011 by nsplayr

[C-21.Pilot]

Can someone please explain the whole "short tour" vs. 365 concept? What I'm reading into it is that during a career, you're prime to accomplish one or the other. If you haven't done one, and you're "high time" you're prime to be non-vol'd.

When can one "expect" to be non-vol'd?

[Guest Scooby]

Can someone please explain the whole "short tour" vs. 365 concept? What I'm reading into it is that during a career, you're prime to accomplish one or the other. If you haven't done one, and you're "high time" you're prime to be non-vol'd.

When can one "expect" to be non-vol'd?

It's all AFSC specific. For us LROs, every single LRO gathering I've ever been a part of (telecon, meeting, conference, etc.) revolves around the issue of deployments. For us the 365 non-vol process is actually very official and well known...literally every LRO is on the list and you can find out where you are at anytime by calling Randolph.

For us, short tours and 365s are basically interchangeable because the only short tours for us are 365s. The difference being that we can do short tours in Korea, Turkey, Latin America, etc. but 99% of our 365s are to Afghanistan. When I was at tech school three years ago, our assignment team told us to expect to do 6 short tours/365s in a typical 20 year career.

YMMV, depending on AFSC.

Edited January 17, 2011 by Scooby

[BQZip01]

Word on the street is that AFPC is raising the short tour requirement just for situations like that. I keep hearing different numbers (215 days, 250 days, etc.) but with the standard AF deployment finally being raised to 179 days, AFPC is tired of people staying a few extra days to get short tour credit. If you're in an AF billet they usually kicked you out prior to 180 days but the other services (and especially NATO) couldn't care less about AF policies so they're usually OK with people staying a few days later to get credit.

A couple of my friends have done this and while I'm happy for them, I'm pissed that the system can be gamed like that. Short tours are huge in the LRO world with the expectation that we'll do approx 6 in our careers (including 365s). To hear that people are getting short tour credit despite not doing anything close to a short tour is annoying because it just screws everyone else over. Glad to see that AFPC will be fixing this in the near future...

Perhaps they should get away from scheduling people right up to 179 days (there is a reason they want 179. Make it 150 and be done with it! Perhaps leadership should have thought of that BEFORE going to 6 month rotations. The problem lies with leadership wanting to push the envelope and planning poorly. The guy who does a 365 gets short tour credit, but so does the guy who does 182 days. It doesn't matter in between.

To hear that people are getting short tour credit despite not doing anything close to a short tour is annoying because it just screws everyone else over.

I have a word for you: jealousy.

These folks ARE doing a short tour, as defined by the regulations. It doesn't screw ANYONE else at all.

As for the ULN switcheroo to invalidate your short tour, BS! It has nothing to do with what ULN you are assigned to. It has everything to do with "consecutive days deployed". You should be gold for getting short tour credit.

[Guest Scooby]

I have a word for you: jealousy.

These folks ARE doing a short tour, as defined by the regulations. It doesn't screw ANYONE else at all.

As for the ULN switcheroo to invalidate your short tour, BS! It has nothing to do with what ULN you are assigned to. It has everything to do with "consecutive days deployed". You should be gold for getting short tour credit.

O dude I'm aware that I'm jealous. I'd do the same thing if I was in the same situation as my friends. I'm not faulting them for taking advantage of the system, I'm saying that the system is screwing us over.

And yea, people are getting screwed over. As I mentioned above, all LROs are racked and stacked on a 365 non-vol list. The #1 discriminator is # of STs and the #2 discriminator is ST return date. So if a guy does a legit 365 ST, he's ranked the same as some dude who lucked out and got a 185 day ST. Is that fair? I don't think it is.

We have tons of 365s that need to be filled every year. They are on a totally different list than our normal 6 month deployments, which are generally not as shitty. So if a guy does a 6 month tour to Kuwait and lucks out by spending a few extra days there, he gets the same credit (and ranks the same on our non-vol list) as a guy who just finished a 365 JET in Afghanistan with the Army. I think that's completely jacked up.

Just make all STs 365 days and be done with it.

Edited January 17, 2011 by Scooby

[Herk Driver]

The point many are missing, and it has been said, is that this is AFSC specific. 181 for a short tour is actually a current exception to policy that dates back to 2002/2003, IIRC. But, I can tell you there are many people that are doing 179's that are being kept here by CC's for the magic two weeks. A stroke of a pen and you can be held for 2 weeks, no big deal. Do away with the ETP and that 179 becomes 194 w/o any consideration for what they have just done. I know a location where the boss is getting considerable pressure to end the tactic because he is pushing everyone to/ over 181. There is benefit to having a system that identifies where it is broken and tries to fix itself. W/o that ETP, no one would give two cents what this guy is doing or why he is doing it.

Seriously, if you don't want a 365, volunteer for one of the good deal 179's /possible short tours.

Edited January 17, 2011 by Herk Driver

[Skitzo]

I recall being told at one time it all had to do with your short tour return date. So the guy who has 364 days over seas and the guy who has 185 days are equal in the eyes of big blue if they returned on the same date. The only time actual deployment days count is when you don't have a short tour. Your days overseas are tacked onto your EAD date if you never have had a short tour or are tacked onto your previous short tour return date.

[Disco_Nav963]

I thought you short tour return date moved to the right based on the # of days TDY... So the guy that did the 365 would still be better off than the guy that did 185.

[BQZip01]

There are 3 big dates that big blue tracks: your time TDY overseas, your last short tour, your last long tour. Any time you get a short tour, it resets both your TDY time overseas and last short tour to the day you got back. If you don't do a short tour, you get credit for your TDY time (like ALL the B-52 guys going to Guam). If you do a long tour, all 3 reset to the day you got back. The reason you don't just add together days is that the more senior you get, the FAR more likely you are to deploy for ANY time home. Imagine a guy who crosses over to the LRO side of the house and only has a single tour under his belt. He could easily be eligible for back-to-back-to-back-to-back tours in his field just because LROs have deployed more and it's "his turn".

The problems in the LRO career field are similar to the CE field: Helping the Army out because they don't have the personnel because they didn't plan for the long term. Many of our folks in the support fields are tired of being a crutch because the Army can't get its act together.

[Toro]

Word on the street is that AFPC is raising the short tour requirement just for situations like that. I keep hearing different numbers (215 days, 250 days, etc.) but with the standard AF deployment finally being raised to 179 days, AFPC is tired of people staying a few extra days to get short tour credit. If you're in an AF billet they usually kicked you out prior to 180 days but the other services (and especially NATO) couldn't care less about AF policies so they're usually OK with people staying a few days later to get credit.

It's now policy (attached).

The 180 day exception has been rescinded, which (I believe) returns it to the AFI 36-2110, Table 3.4. excerpt Champ Kind mentioned previously: TDY 300 days or more in a consecutive 18 month period OR TDY 548 days in a consecutive 3 year period = Short Tour Credit.

CSAF short tour letter.pdf

[Herk Driver]

It's now policy (attached).

The 180 day exception has been rescinded, which (I believe) returns it to the AFI 36-2110, Table 3.4. excerpt Champ Kind mentioned previously: TDY 300 days or more in a consecutive 18 month period OR TDY 548 days in a consecutive 3 year period = Short Tour Credit.

From what I saw today, but is not "official" yet: Normal short tours (i.e. Korea, unaccompanied Turkey, ITDYs, etc) still get credit for a short tour (see 36-2110, Table 3.3). Also, if you are already boots on the ground as of the new policy hitting the streets, you can still get short tour credit if you hit 181+. This of course is still word of mouth until the PSDM gets released and it could get changed before being sent out. If anyone gets their hands on the actual implementation message, which I am told is soon to follow, post it here.

[sputnik]

If you got a short tour under the 181+ before it was rescinded will it still count or will they go back retroactively? Trying to determine my need to start hunting up a 365 before it hunts me.

[HuggyU2]

Sputnik: the answer is "it has not been decided/announced yet".

An implementation policy will come out to determine, among other things, a "cutoff" date.

However, I'd say it is safe to assume if you are done with a short tour, your credit will stay.

[itsokimapilot]

From what I saw today, but is not "official" yet: Normal short tours (i.e. Korea, unaccompanied Turkey, ITDYs, etc) still get credit for a short tour (see 36-2110, Table 3.3). Also, if you are already boots on the ground as of the new policy hitting the streets, you can still get short tour credit if you hit 181+. This of course is still word of mouth until the PSDM gets released and it could get changed before being sent out. If anyone gets their hands on the actual implementation message, which I am told is soon to follow, post it here.

Here is the email from AFPC. Sounds like those out there and those about to leave are safe.

CSAF has signed a memorandum to discontinue temporary policy awarding short

tour credit for serving 181 consecutive days temporary duty (TDY) in a

hostile fire/imminent danger pay area. Implementation has not yet occurred.

Airmen who are currently TDY in the AOR and those who arrive TDY in the AOR

prior to the implementation will continue to receive credit under the

current 181 day exception. Information will be released as soon as specific

details of this policy change are available.

[Homestar]

There are 3 big dates that big blue tracks: your time TDY overseas, your last short tour, your last long tour. Any time you get a short tour, it resets both your TDY time overseas and last short tour to the day you got back. If you don't do a short tour, you get credit for your TDY time (like ALL the B-52 guys going to Guam). If you do a long tour, all 3 reset to the day you got back. The reason you don't just add together days is that the more senior you get, the FAR more likely you are to deploy for ANY time home. Imagine a guy who crosses over to the LRO side of the house and only has a single tour under his belt. He could easily be eligible for back-to-back-to-back-to-back tours in his field just because LROs have deployed more and it's "his turn".

The problems in the LRO career field are similar to the CE field: Helping the Army out because they don't have the personnel because they didn't plan for the long term. Many of our folks in the support fields are tired of being a crutch because the Army can't get its act together.

Are you sure this is true? I returned from a long tour in 2009 but my short tour return date stayed 2003.

[Hacker]

Are you sure this is true? I returned from a long tour in 2009 but my short tour return date stayed 2003.

Correct - overseas long tours do not reset the overseas short tour date.

[contraildash]

Ok, question on 36-2110 interpretation in reference to the "300 days in a 18 month period" rule.

I'm stationed in USAFE.

When January 2012 rolls around, I'll have been TDY for 9+ months. Except for 9 days, that's all consecutive. That said, only 179 of those days will have been spent in the AOR. The rest were deployment training back in CONUS.

Do the TDY days in CONUS count towards a short tour?

If they count, I can more than enough make up the roughly 30 day differnece to meet the 300 days w/in 18 months requirement with all my TDYs around Europe and Africa.

Actually now that I think about it, in this calendar year alone, I will have been TDY almost 280 days.

edit spelling

Edited August 4, 2011 by contraildash

[ThreeHoler]

I think it has the be OCONUS TDY to count.

[Kikuchiyo]

300 days for a short tour has to be OCONUS TDY. From Table 3.4:

"If Airman performed TDY ... from a OS long tour location to any other OS location ... And served ... 300 days or more in a consecutive 18 month period ... Then ... give Airman credit for a completed short tour and award a new STRD to equal date of return from last TDY." (Ellipses represent breaks in the table, not lost information.)

Each MAJCOM has a Rated Manager who is your very own "personnelist in a flight suit." In USAFE's case, he's also a rated recallee. If you have questions about exactly this kind of stuff, or deployments, assignments, and rated manning, contact him directly. Most of them work in your MAJCOM A1, except USAFE & PACAF which have theirs in the A3.

[Kikuchiyo]

F-16 drivers and Huey guys are particularly vulnerable because of the requirements of several of the 365 taskings. AFPC takes the requirements for the tasking, and then filters the database of all officers to eliminate those that don't meet the basic requirements: rank, AFSC, etc. Then they filter out those with a DEROS or DOS, or who won't have 12 months TOS, or any special flags in their record. Then they sort by number of short tours, STRD, and ODSD in that order.

So when they need an F-16 Capt or Maj to go 365 to fly with the Paki's, the guy with 0 short tours in Korea floats right to the top. But there's not a lot of 365's that require, say, a C-5 guy. So those guys get hit with the "any rated" ones. But then there's lots of people qualified to fill those, so you get hidden deep under the pile of old Maj's and Lt Col's regardless of their MWS that haven't ever gone remote or gotten enough TDY days to get a short tour.

If you aren't sure how vulnerable you are, check out the iTDY site on aefonline and look over the taskings that are out there.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Kikuchiyo

[Flare]

Anyone heard of any good (relative, of course) 365s lately?

[Cap-10]

Anyone heard of any good (relative, of course) 365s lately?

Al Dhafra...some people are there with their families on 2 year accompanied tours. I have a buddy on a 365 there, but his wife/kiddo are going over for a few weeks to visit.

Cheers,

Cap-10

[matmacwc]

Flying vipers in Poland

[BB Stacker]

Flying vipers in Poland

There's a mx officer job supporting the same thing, also a short tour.

I think there's also a couple C-130 pilot jobs and a mx officer job doing the same type of thing with Herks in Poland, but I might be mistaken on that.