5th SOF truth?

[nsplayr]

I'm not surprised you feel 'butt hurt', whatever the F that is.

Sarcasm meter malfunction, attempt reset.

WE are not breaking them on a regular basis.

Well congratulations...when the boss asks you do so things that break the 4 truths you can join the club and marvel at the irony of it all.

And NO. YOU are not as good as the SOF standard, and you're right, the shooters deserve our best. Not a bunch of faggy last in their class d-bags that are jaded and pissed off to be here.

sarcasm: on

Wow, I didn't know you sat in on my last checkride and evaluated my performance. I also didn't know I was last in my class and didn't want to be here; all of this truly is news to me, thanks for the insight. Since you know me so well care to give me some advice on...

/sarcasm off

Oh wait, you're just some bitter dude who doesn't know me or my bros. Chill the F out with the high school rivalries man...SAME TEAM! Unless you carry a long gun and fight on the ground with the army we're all only as special as the guy next to us so get off your high horse.

They should be applying. And begging to get in the door. When they get here they should be so g-damn happy that they are on the pointy end that they STFU and do their jobs as good as they can.

This is exactly what I did to get here and the same goes for many of the dudes in my timeframe. If you're such a SOF God and follow the truths to the T why don't you stop ranting and teach the young LTs something, especially when the process isn't exactly guaranteeing quality control the way it once did. I'm very eager to learn because of that guy on the ground, but you sir apparently have nothing to teach me. That's it, pissing contest over.

[dmeg130]

OK, back on topic here...

For those who actually read the article, the "SOF Truths" were written by an Army guy as a way to distinguish unique aspects of SOF vs conventional forces (read Army SOF and Big Army). Although often viewed as some kind as inviolate doctrinal mantra, it was designed to educate congress that you can't just shit out an SF group/SEAL platoon, etc. when you want it. The 5th truth says "these guys do not have the organic log train or supporting capes (other than ACs) to do big engagements on their own -- they aren't the magic answer to everything". Naturally, USASOC and SWC aren't going to adopt anything that implies they need help, thus 4 SOF Truths. ADM Olsen is just throwing that back out there since his guys are the most over-tapped resource out there; fair enough.

As for where AFSOC falls in this debate, argue amongst yourself. The gap between what slick crews and MC crews can do (within the limits of their airframes) has shrunk dramatically in ten years. That, coupled with several new airframes coming on line in rapid succesion has requried some "mass-production". Hopefully the older guys (even crossflows) will be able to bridge the experience gap until the new guys get a couple hundred combat hours. However, I'd argue that it's harder to train somebody to be effetive in the 6th SOS than any other AFSOC flying squadron.

[Guest CharlieDontSurf]

You didn't clear anything up, and you don't need to. Most of the dudes that are participating in this thread know as much about this as you (or likely more). And really? You don't understand how non-SOF is important? Does SOF have any space assets? No. Do we have any heavy airlift? No. Do we have any fixed-wing AR tanker capability? No. It's almost so obvious that it should't be a truth because only a moron wouldn't know that these things are a multiplier. no shit, hence my being lost on its addition How could this be a mystery to you?

Not sure what your background is. Know that CAS and AD are two completely different mindsets and skillsets. Don't know what your backgreound is either but yes I know this, I'm not some bumpkin Lt fresh out of UPT Navy SEALing it up! When you add TF into the mix there is absolutely no doubt that you will not be doing both. It cannot happen. To be even remotely proficient at both these you would become a training squadron and do nothing but fly for currency and proficiency. There are simply too many events to do. When the T2 had its last accident (Albania) the AIB published the fact that T2 copilots had significantly more events to log per half than anyone else in the USAF. This was being balanced by letting guys get noncurrent and then flying them with IPs. Clearly not an effective long-term strategy. You cannot maintain proficiency in both. It doesn't work. Well SOCOM & AFSOC/CC are going to try by removing some capes and adding more to this airframe We learned this lesson already, and it falls perfctly into the fact that you cannot mass produce SOF. People will get hurt, likely killed.

yeah, great I know this, our currency list is just as long and thats before we add any of this new jazz.

You are stating the obvious, read the posts I threw up after the one you quoted. IT IS WHAT WE ARE BEING TASKED TO DO. OF course I know we use non-SOF...the question was...How does it fit with the first four? The first four center around the make up of SOF...saying SOF needs non- SOF...nothing to do with the first four. Read the question next time.

Edited October 10, 2009 by CharlieDontSurf

[M2]

Can I make another proposal? Rewrite the laws...<cut>

Or better yet, leave the Four SOF Truths the fuck alone!

Why does the Air Force constantly feel the need to convolute every fucking thing into meaningless gobilly gook? It took a very clear and enduring mission statement of 'fly, fight and win' and 'd it into 'to deliver sovereign options for the defense of the United States of America and its global interests -- to fly and fight in Air, Space, and Cyberspace'

The Four SOF Truths area clear, concise and understandable. Everyone realizes that the mission requires support, but does that really require mentioning in a mission statement? I look back to my days in aircraft maintenance when I was enlisted, those dedicated take pride in ensuring their aircraft is the very best it can be, and their satisfaction is derived from the mission getting done, and not some jabber jabber...

[Guest CharlieDontSurf]

Or better yet, leave the Four SOF Truths the ###### alone!

Why does the Air Force constantly feel the need to convolute every ######ing thing into meaningless gobilly gook? It took a very clear and enduring mission statement of 'fly, fight and win' and 'd it into 'to deliver sovereign options for the defense of the United States of America and its global interests -- to fly and fight in Air, Space, and Cyberspace'

The Four SOF Truths area clear, concise and understandable. Everyone realizes that the mission requires support, but does that really require mentioning in a mission statement? I look back to my days in aircraft maintenance when I was enlisted, those dedicated take pride in ensuring their aircraft is the very best it can be, and their satisfaction is derived from the mission getting done, and not some jabber jabber...

AMEN!

[LJ Driver]

yeah, great I know this, our currency list is just as long and thats before we add any of this new jazz.

You are stating the obvious, read the posts I threw up after the one you quoted. IT IS WHAT WE ARE BEING TASKED TO DO. OF course I know we use non-SOF...the question was...How does it fit with the first four? The first four center around the make up of SOF...saying SOF needs non- SOF...nothing to do with the first four. Read the question next time.

Dude, you're so right. My bad. Your inexperienced squadron that has a grand total of about 15 dudes that have some sort of TF or CAS background coupled with the majority brand new dudes out of UPT and slick guys that don't have a clue WTF TF or CAS stand for are absolutely perfect for the job.

[tac airlifter]

Dude, you're so right. My bad. Your inexperienced squadron that has a grand total of about 15 dudes that have some sort of TF or CAS background coupled with the majority brand new dudes out of UPT and slick guys that don't have a clue WTF TF or CAS stand for are absolutely perfect for the job.

WTF is up with your attitude? There are two wars going on and dudes from slicks & UPT are trying as hard as they can to get into AFSOC so they can get some of the action before we're pulled out.... and you're busy telling new guys they don't have a clue? No shit they don't have a clue, they're new! Big fucking suprise! Maybe instead of taking the "holier than thou" approach you should take a clue from CH- that dude is always reaching out to new guys who want to learn and doesn't spend time giving everyone shit for not being as old school gangsta as him. I appreciate the experience guys like you bring to most of these discussions, but to what end are you badgering the new squadrons tasked with new missions? What do you hope to accomplish by talking down to guys who have jumped into a shitty situation and are trying to make it work? AFSOC has new squadrons with new misisons and they need so many bodies that a lot of the guys are new.

For the record, I haven't met a single straight out of UPT kid that isn't very excited to be in AFSOC. I heard stories about bitter 38 guys but have yet to meet one. These guys want to be part of the FIGHT, that matters. Skills can be taught and learned, attitude is what makes guys rise to the occasion. Why don't you either help with your experience or STFU and let the guys struggling to make it work struggle without your bullshit sarcasm.

As to the OP, the 5th truth is obvious and many in AFSOC play it loose with the first four anyway. Just leave it be.

[LJ Driver]

Holy shit fellas, you are defining SNAP for all to publicly see. Take off your panties, this board is not all about giving advice to everyone and cuddling with each other. Some of us (yourselves included) like to bitch about things. In fact, I would argue that over 50% of the posts on any given discussion thread (complete guess) are related to griping and complaining, this particular one included. I am not the one getting personal, you are. I am simply calling it like I see it.

For the record, I am giving advice: Don't take on the CAS and LL mission at the same time or you'll likely kill yourselves and others. Sage advice that was also given by others (where is the OUTRAGE!!) The fact that the 73d is the only squadron contemplating doing this kind of narrows down the beam of criticism, don't you think?

And no, we don't need a 5th truth for reasons already mentioned. I'd love to see us comply with the first four.

[tac airlifter]

Holy shit fellas, you are defining SNAP for all to publicly see. Take off your panties, this board is not all about giving advice to everyone and cuddling with each other. Some of us (yourselves included) like to bitch about things. In fact, I would argue that over 50% of the posts on any given discussion thread (complete guess) are related to griping and complaining, this particular one included. I am not the one getting personal, you are. I am simply calling it like I see it.

For the record, I am giving advice: Don't take on the CAS and LL mission at the same time or you'll likely kill yourselves and others. Sage advice that was also given by others (where is the OUTRAGE!!) The fact that the 73d is the only squadron contemplating doing this kind of narrows down the beam of criticism, don't you think?

And no, we don't need a 5th truth for reasons already mentioned. I'd love to see us comply with the first four.

I hear what you're saying about using the board to bitch. I do the same thing because you have to vent somehow and my wife doesn't want to hear it. You can say what you want about the missions leadership has given, my panties won't be twisted. But, as I said, I take issue with "old guys" hemming and hawwing about all the inexperienced guys standing up new squadrons. Dude, we're doing our best here and telling us how much we suck while we're trying to write a vol 3 isn't helping. Channel your rage at someone other than new LTs or guys new to AFSOC. We want to be here. Your advice is duely noted, unfortunatly it applies to an 0-7 not an 0-3.

[LJ Driver]

I hear what you're saying about using the board to bitch. I do the same thing because you have to vent somehow and my wife doesn't want to hear it. You can say what you want about the missions leadership has given, my panties won't be twisted. But, as I said, I take issue with "old guys" hemming and hawwing about all the inexperienced guys standing up new squadrons. Dude, we're doing our best here and telling us how much we suck while we're trying to write a vol 3 isn't helping. Channel your rage at someone other than new LTs or guys new to AFSOC. We want to be here. Your advice is duely noted, unfortunatly it applies to an 0-7 not an 0-3.

Agreed, and understood, but lots of advice here is better served at that level. That doesn't mean we shouldn't say it anyway.

[tac airlifter]

Agreed, and understood, but lots of advice here is better served at that level. That doesn't mean we shouldn't say it anyway.

That is the truth. Thread drift: I was thinking something similar while I read the "advice for LTs" thread and noticed most of it focused on getting useless PME done, doing your masters etc. All true for getting promoted, but how sad when a new LT struggling to land on centerline walks into the flight/CC office and asks about SOS in-res.

There seems to be an assumption amoung GOs that we are all equally good at flying and therefore the best way to judge someone is by the amount of additional shit they pile onto their SURF. Of course this diminishes the huge effort it takes to stay sharp and composed on every flight, but it's always easier to look good than to really be good.

Back on topic, the day a general uses the SOF truths to guide his decision making process is the day their existance will matter at all. Good on those AFSOC units that live by them; some of us are not afforded that luxury.

[zrooster99]

I am not the one getting personal, you are. I am simply calling it like I see it.

Oh yeah? This wasn't getting personal?

Dude, you're so right. My bad. Your inexperienced squadron that has a grand total of about 15 dudes that have some sort of TF or CAS background coupled with the majority brand new dudes out of UPT and slick guys that don't have a clue WTF TF or CAS stand for are absolutely perfect for the job.

Sounds like you're trying to impress everyone with how big your hog is.

[Boxhead]

For the record, I am giving advice: Don't take on the CAS and LL mission at the same time or you'll likely kill yourselves and others. Sage advice that was also given by others (where is the OUTRAGE!!) The fact that the 73d is the only squadron contemplating doing this kind of narrows down the beam of criticism, don't you think?

So two years from now when the 73d is being successful at both and have not lost any planes to just simple "new guy" or "inexperienced" issues, what are the guys in squadrons that can only manage to accomplish one mission going do? Are they going to need therapy for their sudden lack of ability to brag about how specific and awesome they are and how no one else could ever do it?

I think that bet needs to be spelled out...and soon, so that once the report cards come out we can hold some folks accountable to buying LOTS of beer/booze for someone else.

And no, we don't need a 5th truth for reasons already mentioned. I'd love to see us comply with the first four.

x2

[ClearedHot]

So two years from now when the 73d is being successful at both and have not lost any planes to just simple "new guy" or "inexperienced" issues, what are the guys in squadrons that can only manage to accomplish one mission going do? Are they going to need therapy for their sudden lack of ability to brag about how specific and awesome they are and how no one else could ever do it?

I think that bet needs to be spelled out...and soon, so that once the report cards come out we can hold some folks accountable to buying LOTS of beer/booze for someone else.

In the immortal words of a very sage Eagle Drive on this forum, slow your roll.

When you have never done CAS, please use extreme caution before attempting to throw your dick on the table and proclaim you will be able to simultaneously master TF, AD, and CAS when others have dedicated their lives and careers to mastering only one or two of those.

I have immense respect for people like "Charliedontsurf", who know they have been dealt a difficult hand and are going to try and make the most of it without being braggarts.

Before you declare yourself Steve Canyon you might want to recall that not so long ago the MC community had to go "back to basics" because they could not master even one of those tasks (TF) and ended up smacking an airplane into a mountain in Puerto Rico and flew another one into a box canyon in Albania.

[Murph]

So two years from now when the 73d is being successful at both and have not lost any planes to just simple "new guy" or "inexperienced" issues, what are the guys in squadrons that can only manage to accomplish one mission going do? Are they going to need therapy for their sudden lack of ability to brag about how specific and awesome they are and how no one else could ever do it?

Oh boy, I'm gonna have to dust off that recipe for humble pie. Especially when your standard for successful at both mission sets is "not lost any planes to just simple "new guy" or "inexperienced" issues". After a sortie in OEF, I usually sit down with the crew and start debrief to the tune of, "Well, we didn't lose any planes, so great work. That's all I got."

[Boxhead]

In the immortal words of a very sage Eagle Drive on this forum, slow your roll.

There is no such thing as a sage Eagle driver, just someone that almost got C models and says "that's OK".

When you have never done CAS,

[\quote]

Funny, it's on my Form 8. However, the similarity to what you do is moot.

I never claimed I could master anything...except maybe your mom. I just think it will be funny if the 73d is able to do it, and maybe...just maybe that MAY indicate the ones that spent years doing just one...are't that "special" to begin with. I'm not sayin'...I'm just sayin'.....multi-asking is a favorable thing...no?

I'm not in the 73rd, I'm not trying to brag for them, and I have no real vested interest in if they succeed. Except that I always like to see my buddies succeed.

Well, the first name is right...but anyone can make mistakes, happens across MDSs and AFSCs, some cops are douches, some AC-130's stay up past dawn, some C-21' mess up their fuel, some F-15 dudes suck some cock...you name it, every community makes mistakes, takes chances, succeeds, fails...whatever. But don't sit here on a freaking Internet forum and tell me I can't say it would be cool if the guys that pretty much openly hope for failure should buy some beer for the guys they basically want to fail (or at least expect to) if they "accidentally" rise to the occasion and do a good job. How about "Yeah, that is gonna be tough...hope you can do OK...anything I can do to help?". Then again, you might have said that very thing, just not on this forum...man, I hope so.

"AND" would be the critical word...sucess AND no lost planes. Not one defined by the other. But granted, I may not have worded it the best.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Boxhead

[Whitman]

....... some F-15 dudes suck some cock...

Classic

[FlyinGrunt]

some AC-130's stay up past dawn

No question, that one was a tragedy. But had they gone home to save their own skins, there might be a whole lot more dead Americans than just 14 aircrew. We'll probably never know. Perhaps "success" in these businesses you discuss isn't always so clear cut?

[Boxhead]

No question, that one was a tragedy. But had they gone home to save their own skins, there might be a whole lot more dead Americans than just 14 aircrew. We'll probably never know. Perhaps "success" in these businesses you discuss isn't always so clear cut?

True that, no question. It is a complex thing to be sure. I guess my beef is that most of the speculative harsh pre-judgment of failure is also not so clear cut.

Couldn't agree more with ya though.

[ClearedHot]

True that, no question. It is a complex thing to be sure. I guess my beef is that most of the speculative harsh pre-judgment of failure is also not so clear cut.

Couldn't agree more with ya though.

F you retard....this is not speculative pre-judgement....this is judgement based on thousands of hours of experience in Gunships and AFSOC.

Go back to your GCS and work on your "mom jokes".

[Boxhead]

F you retard....this is not speculative pre-judgement....this is judgement based on thousands of hours of experience in Gunships and AFSOC.

Go back to your GCS and work on your "mom jokes".

ZING! Right in the ol' Ground Control Station. When did this become a UAV issue? It must hurt where you pee.

And that is not even funny, your mom is no joke!

You are judging something that has never been tried...kinda the definition of speculative and "pre". Maybe you will be right. Who knows. I just hope you are not.

[ClearedHot]

ZING! Right in the ol' Ground Control Station. When did this become a UAV issue? It must hurt where you pee.

And that is not even funny, your mom is no joke!

You are judging something that has never been tried...kinda the definition of speculative and "pre". Maybe you will be right. Who knows. I just hope you are not.

It is not a UAV issue, which is why you have no clue about the subject. It is a gunship issue and I might have one or two hours doing that job so it is probably ok for me to speculate, based on experience.

How about we retire the F-22 and bring back the Sopwith Camel and put AMRAAMS on it, would it be speculation for me to say that is a bad idea? While the ole biplane might look wicked flying around with a couple of slammers, it would have one weak ass F-Pole, that is if it could even take off with the missiles.

I know how difficult this is for guys in the Whiskey, and yes a lot of people have and are trying to help. In my opinion, once they start shooting, they will not go back to TF.

Edited October 20, 2009 by ClearedHot

[busdriver]

CH, while I tend to agree that they'll probably put a lot less emphasis on TF once they start shooting, do you see any difference between the type of shooting the Whiskey guys will be doing compared to what you do? If the Whiskey guys are gonna be outfitted anything like the Harvest Hawk program, don't you think there's a bit of a difference between dropping some PGMs based on coords provided by a JTAC or "area suppression" from a 30mm and actually shooting? From an outsider looking in, it just seems like the Whiskey isn't gonna be doing the same type of CAS as a Spooky/Spectre. I'm sure I'm missing something, but if you can teach a Tomcat driver to drop JDAMs, why can't you teach a TF 130 guy how to drop a similarly GPS guided munition?

[ClearedHot]

CH, while I tend to agree that they'll probably put a lot less emphasis on TF once they start shooting, do you see any difference between the type of shooting the Whiskey guys will be doing compared to what you do? If the Whiskey guys are gonna be outfitted anything like the Harvest Hawk program, don't you think there's a bit of a difference between dropping some PGMs based on coords provided by a JTAC or "area suppression" from a 30mm and actually shooting? From an outsider looking in, it just seems like the Whiskey isn't gonna be doing the same type of CAS as a Spooky/Spectre. I'm sure I'm missing something, but if you can teach a Tomcat driver to drop JDAMs, why can't you teach a TF 130 guy how to drop a similarly GPS guided munition?

BD,

CAS is CAS and not something to be taken lightly. Rarely do you simply go pickle on a set of Lat/Long and call it CAS. I am not trying to be flippant, but the definition speaks volumes, CAS = Air action against hostile targets which are in close proximity to friendly forces and which require detailed integration of each air mission with the fire and movement of those forces. (JCS Pub 1-02)

In my opinion the W's will start with a gun, not a wizz-bang GPS wonder weapon. And when you shoot a gun in close proximity to the guys on the ground, it takes a bit of training AND proficiency. The CAS environment (especially when you are using the gun), is a very dynamic thing with lots of people running around on the ground and it takes a lot of practice and training to understand the fight, which is why I think trying to maintain a TF and AD currency will be near impossible. Hell, I remember when the AC's had a low-level program, we could BARELY keep one crew current, and we were not flying anything close to full-up low-level, Christ we could not even fly modified contour...only the blackline. I remember is being a big deal when we started diving segments so we could actually go lower than the closest tower in the SE United States.

For the record, I am not a W hater, some truly great guys over there and yes they have some quality help, just my opinion that you can't do it all with one plane/crew.

[Jimmy.The.Engineer]

I like how everyone knows - in great detail - what is happening at the 73rd. You embarrass yourselves.