2009 Fort Hood Shooting

[PapaJu]

Terrorism is such a broad term though...

So yes it is...but do I associate these horrific events with things like 9/11 and the USS Cole? No.

I still believe these events weren't Islamic extremeist terrorist style motivated, but rather just cowardice by Hasan himself. He didn't want to go and was too big a baby to just wash his own mouth out with a revolver and instead tried a "suicide by cop" type situation.

Again, this is only my opinion based on the information I have read so far. If links are established that this douche-nugget had encouragement and ties to an organized terror network then I will reasses.

He may have been acting alone, but there's plenty of evidence that he bought into the whackjob ideology even when working at Walter Reed. Not to mention there's been some reports that he may have been in contact with Al Qaeda types.

[nsplayr]

Can someone clear up what exactly an 'extremist muslim' is and how it differs from a muslim?

Just a bit curious on this, as from what I have read/studied on Islam it is religion of violence.

I'm posting from my phone so I don't have the graphic, but /facepalm/.

Do some more reading.

[Guest Scooby]

I'm posting from my phone so I don't have the graphic, but /facepalm/.

Do some more reading.

Posted the image for ya

[Guest PerArduaAdAstra]

Remember that the state and the feds will sit down together and make a decision about who gets to try this clown. Many times, the feds will hand the guy over to the state especially if the state can get a stiffer penalty. I think you'll see that TX will take the guy to trial.

I think much like the DC sniper, who was tried in Virginia as opposed to Maryland or DC, also because of the Old Dominion's willingness to carry out the verdicts handed down by the courts.

BTW, following the Supreme Courts decision not to hear his appeal, the sniper is due for his shot in the arm tomorrow - and it won't be for the HIN1 virus.

[HoHum]

1st irony of this event: He's a shrink that went nuts. I wasn't too surprised.

2nd irony: His shooting spree probably wouldn't have lasted more than 30 seconds if it had happened off-post. I'm not sure why the armed forces spend so much money on fences and security personnel and then decide that the people they let in (carry permit or not) aren't qualified to carry a weapon.

[GrndPndr]

Just what was he afraid of by being deployed? He wasn't going to get shot at. No, he didn't like the idea of contributing to taking apart his buddies network over there.

A terrorist, yes. His opportunity was here in CONUS. He needed to do this before leaving. How many actors does it take to become an act of terrorism? Just one.

[Steve Davies]

Fine. I'll go. I'm sick of people not calling a F'ing spade a shovel.

From U.S. Law:

(2) the term "terrorism" means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;

Pretty sure that two of the victims at Ft. Hood were noncombatants. So, your shovel is indeed a spade, no?

[bfargin]

I'd say they were all non-combatants in this setting and situation. No war going on here in TX and all parties involved were supposed to be on the same side. And, everyone was unarmed due to ridiculous rules about guns on base. On a military base might be the easiest place to kill somebody and get minimal resistance (way from the front gate or any entry point of course).

[Breckey]

I'd say they were all non-combatants in this setting and situation. No war going on here in TX and all parties involved were supposed to be on the same side.

Does the setting really matter whether the troops were combatants or not? If he was some sort of super-duper sleeper agent for Al Qaeda then US military personnel, regardless of their location, would be considered combatants (I know AQ doesn't play by the rules but its an interesting thought experiment). Aren't we at "war" with Al Qaeda and other terrorist networks? If some SOF guys go and kill some terrorist in his home county of Assrapistan don't we consider them a legitimate target?

Edited November 9, 2009 by Breckey

[tac airlifter]

Recieved the following email from a friend in the Army. I myself do not know the JAG who wrote this, but the third party does and I consider him 100% reliable. Text follows:

Subject: What happened

Since I don't know when I'll sleep (it's 4 am now) I'll write what happened (the abbreviated version.....the long one is already part of the investigation with more to come). I'll not write about any part of the investigation that I've learned about since (as a witness I know more than I should since inevitably my JAG brothers and sisters are deeply involved in the investigation). Don't assume that most of the current media accounts are very accurate. They're not. They'll improve with time. Only those of us who were there really know what went down. But as they collate our statements they'll get it right.

>

> I did my SRP last week (Soldier Readiness Processing) but you're supposed to come back a week later to have them look at the smallpox vaccination site (it's this big itchy growth on your shoulder). I am probably alive because I pulled a ---------- and entered the wrong building first (the main SRP building). The Medical SRP building is off to the side. Realizing my mistake I left the main building and walked down the sidewalk to the medical SRP building.

As I'm walking up to it the gunshots start. Slow and methodical. But continuous. Two ambulatory wounded came out. Then two soldiers dragging a third who was covered in blood. Hearing the shots but not seeing the shooter, along with a couple other soldiers I stood in the street and yelled at everyone who came running that it was clear but to "RUN!". I kept motioning people fast. about 6-10 minutes later (the shooting continuous), two cops ran up. one male, one female. we pointed in the direction of the shots. they headed that way (the medical SRP building was about 50 meters away). then a lot more gunfire. a couple minutes later a balding man in ACU's came around the building carrying a pistol and holding it tactically. He started shooting at us and we all dived back to the cars behind us. I don't think he hit the couple other guys who were there. I did see the bullet holes later in the cars. First I went behind a tire and then looked under the body of the car. I've been trained how to respond to gunfire...but with my own weapon. To have no weapon I don't know how to explain what that felt like. I hadn't run away and stayed because I had thought about the consequences or anything like that. I wasn't thinking anything through. Please understand, there was no intention. I was just staying there because I didn't think about running. It never occurred to me that he might shoot me. Until he started shooting in my direction and I realized I was unarmed.

Then the female cop comes around the corner. He shoots her. (according to the news accounts she got a round into him. I believe it, I just didn't see it. he didn't go down.) She goes down. He starts reloading. He's fiddling with his mags. Weirdly he hasn't dropped the one that was in his weapon. He's holding the fresh one and the old one (you do that on the range when time is not of the essence but in combat you would just let the old mag go). I see the male cop around the left corner of the building. (I'm about 15-20 meters from the shooter.) I yell at the cop, "He's reloading, he's reloading. Shoot him! Shoot him!) You have to understand, everything was quiet at this point. The cop appears to hear me and comes around the corner and shoots the shooter.

He goes down. The cop kicks his weapon further away. I sprint up to the downed female cop. Another captain (I think he was with me behind the cars) comes up as well. She's bleeding profusely out of her thigh. We take our belts off and tourniquet her just like we've been trained (I hope we did it right...we didn't have any CLS (combat lifesaver) bags with their awesome tourniquets on us, so we worked with what we had).

Meanwhile, in the most bizarre moment of the day, a photographer was standing over us taking pictures. I suppose I'll be seeing those tomorrow. Then a soldier came up and identified himself as a medic. I then realized her weapon was lying there unsecured (and on "fire"). I stood over it and when I saw a cop yelled for him to come over and secure her weapon (I would have done so but I was worried someone would mistake me for a bad guy). I then went over to the shooter. He was unconscious. A Lt Colonel was there and had secured his primary weapon for the time being. He also had a revolver.

I couldn't believe he was one of ours. I didn't want to believe it. Then I saw his name and rank and realized this wasn't just some specialist with mental issues. At this point there was a guy there from CID and I asked him if he knew he was the shooter and had him secured. He said he did. I then went over the slaughter house...the medical SRP building. No human should ever have to see what that looked like, and I won't tell you. Just believe me. Please, there was nothing to be done there. Someone then said there was someone critically wounded around the corner. I ran around (while seeing this floor to ceiling window that someone had jumped through movie style) and saw a large African-American soldier lying on his back with two or three soldiers attending. I ran up and identified two entrance wounds on the right side of his stomach, one exit wound on the left side and one head wound. He was not bleeding externally from the stomach wounds (though almost certainly internally) but was bleeding from the head wound.

A soldier was using a shirt to try and stop the head bleeding. He was conscious so I began talking to him to keep him so. He was 42, from North Carolina, he was named something Jr., his son was named something III and he had a daughter as well. His children lived with him. He was divorced. I told him the blubber on his stomach saved his life. He smiled. A young soldier in civvies showed up and identified himself as a combat medic. We debated whether to put him on the back of a pickup truck. A doctor (well, an audiologist) showed up and said you can't move him, he has a head wound. We finally sat tight. I went back to the slaughterhouse. They weren't letting anyone in there not even medics.

Finally, after about 45 minutes had elapsed some cops showed up in tactical vests. Someone said the TBI building was unsecured. They headed into there. All of a sudden a couple more shots were fired. People shouted there was a second shooter. A half hour later the SWAT showed up. There was no second shooter, that had been an impetuous cop apparently. But that confused things for a while. Meanwhile, I went back to the shooter. The female cop had been taken away,and a medic was pumping plasma into the shooter. I'm not proud of this but I went up to her and said "this is the shooter, is there anyone else who needs attention...do them first". She indicated everyone else living was attended to. I still hadn't seen any EMTs or ambulances. I had so much blood on me that people kept asking me if I was ok. But that was all other people's blood. Eventually, (an hour and a half to two hours after the shootings) they started landing choppers. They took out the big African American guy and the shooter. I guess the ambulatory wounded were all at the SRP building. Everyone else in my area was dead.

>

> I suppose the emergency responders were told there were multiple shooters. I heard that was the delay with the choppers (they were all civilian helicopters). They needed a secure LZ, but other than the initial cops who did everything right, I didnt' see a lot of them for a while. I did see many a soldier rush out to help their fellows/sisters. There was one female soldier, I dont' know her name or rank but I would recognize her anywhere who was everywhere helping people. A couple people, mainly civilians, were hysterical, but only a couple. One civilian freaked out when I tried to comfort her when she saw my uniform. I guess she had seen the shooter up close. A lot of soldiers were rushing out to help even when we thought there was another gunman out there. This Army is not broken no matter what the pundits say. Not the Army I saw. And then they kept me for a long time to come. oh, and perhaps the most surreal thing, at 1500 (the end of the workday on Thursdays) when the bugle sounded we all came to attention and saluted the flag. in the middle of it all.

this is what I saw. it can't have been real. but this is my small corner of what happened.

[bfargin]

Does the setting really matter whether the troops were combatants or not? If he was some sort of super-duper sleeper agent for Al Qaeda then US military personnel, regardless of their location, would be considered combatants (I know AQ doesn't play by the rules but its an interesting thought experiment). Aren't we at "war" with Al Qaeda and other terrorist networks? If some SOF guys go and kill some terrorist in his home county of Assrapistan don't we consider them a legitimate target?

It get messy trying to define combatants, terrorists, legitimate targets, etc when you can't identify your enemy (the guys trying to kill you). We're fighting ideology and not a country. In this case, kind of like the crazy kamikaze pilots of WWII, the concept of killing oneself to take out a target, is foreign to us (even after 100s of years of Islamic knuckleheads doing stunts like this). Most of us, in war, would rather kill the enemy and live so that we can come back another day and kill more enemy.

[busdriver]

If that email is real, that guy should have ZERO problem with his suggestion that the medics should ignore the shooter in favor of the victims.

[Guest wannabeflyer]

This was absolutely a religiously motivated terrorist attack. The man went to a mosque that was attend by several of the 9-11 terrorists, he reportedly yelled "allah akbar" when he committed that act, he was even previously under investigation for making contact with radical muslim clerics in Yemen. I'm tired of all this pc talk about whether this was religiously motivated, there's no doubt it was. And yes Islam is a violent religion, do some reading, it was founded by a polygamist war lord. On another note, why wouldn't he be tried under the UCMJ? Seems like the swiftest path to a well deserved firing squad.

[Techsan]

We need to take him out of the hospital in San Antone, and fly him out to Bagram to finish out his hospital stay. Anyone want to put in an OST request?

[brabus]

Do some more reading.

Maybe you and everyone else who stupidly thinks it's not a violent religion should be the ones doing the reading.

"Quaran 9:5 -Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free."

"Quaran 9:25 - Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day"

"Quaran 9:34 - They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings of a painful doom"

So in conclusion, quotes directly from the Muslim holy book - Kill people unless they repent and become Muslim, fight those who don't believe in Allah and bring "painful doom" against those who don't follow Allah. Copy, not a violent religion.

I'm not saying there aren't good Muslims out there, but you're a dumbass if you think it's not a religion of violence. Luckily there are good Muslims out there who don't strictly adhere to the parts (such as above), but it's shit like above which drives the "radical" Islamists like Maj Assclown.

Edited November 10, 2009 by brabus

[Vertigo]

Maybe you and everyone else who stupidly thinks it's not a violent religion should be the ones doing the reading.

"Quaran 9:5 -Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free."

"Quaran 9:25 - Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day"

"Quaran 9:34 - They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings of a painful doom"

So in conclusion, quotes directly from the Muslim holy book - Kill people unless they repent and become Muslim, fight those who don't believe in Allah and bring "painful doom" against those who don't follow Allah. Copy, not a violent religion.

I'm not saying there aren't good Muslims out there, but you're a dumbass if you think it's not a religion of violence. Luckily there are good Muslims out there who don't strictly adhere to the parts (such as above), but it's shit like above which drives the "radical" Islamists like Maj Assclown.

So I guess we can say that Christianity is also a violent religion.

Deuteronomy 13:6-16 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery."

Luke 19:27 "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."

Isaiah 13:15-18 "Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished."

There's about 1000 other passages in the bible describing acts of violence, mutilation, infanticide, torture, and murder. Context is important, of course, and many of these seeming cruelties disappear when read as such. However, this would not stop a Christian terrorist from interpreting the Bible in a manner necessary to concoct a religious justification for unspeakable horrors, as Pope Urban II did, for example, when he preached the First Crusade in 1095 or as many American preachers did when they used Leviticus to defend slavery.

Political and religious extremists have abused Islamic, Jewish, or Christian scriptures continuously throughout history.

[AEWingsMN]

My post is in reference to Brabus... as Vertigo sneaked in while I was typing.

And I have now have a post in agreement to Vertigo too... this world really is going to hell and a handbasket.

I think some (not all) context has been removed from what you've posted (mainly timeframe and criteria for when we non-islams should be killed). Also, this is what I got for 9:25

[9:25] GOD has granted you victory in many situations. But on the day of Hunayn, you became too proud of your great number. Consequently, it did not help you at all, and the spacious earth became so straitened around you, that you turned around and fled.

Anyway, the violence seen in the Quaran seems very little in difference to the violence seen in some parts of the bible.

Take Exodus for example, God claims again and again that he could just have the Egyptians let the Israelites go, but he "hardens their (the Pharoah's) hearts" so that they don't let the Israelites go. He then after enough abuse finally lets Pharoah let them go. But then decides to "harden his heart" again so that the Egyptians chase the Israelites where they end up dying at God's hand.

I could see how it's easy to believe the violence brought on in the Quaran to non-believers could be justified by them if believed that it came from that already even as we believe violent God.

Oh... and all of our prophets are polygamists too... in many crazy ways too. Why did God not care about it back then? Dang...

Anyway, I don't think they are just in their Jihad, I'm just saying the violence they believe in is not as different from the Violence shown in the Christian Bible (which they believe in) by the same God according to them. Just calling them a violent religion shows you are studied better than I on their religion, but maybe should look at Christianity more before comparing.

And after reading Vertigos, my statement is that it's the act that's violent, (which not all muslims believe in) not the actual religion that is violent. It's all in how it's interpreted. Anyway, on topic, I think his act was in this manner of being violent for the religion, and thus similar to the 9/11 attackers and any other jihadist. And I would say it is an act of terror, as much as 9/11, as much as Timothy McVeigh.

Edited November 10, 2009 by AEWingsMN

[HossHarris]

This was absolutely a religiously motivated terrorist attack. The man went to a mosque that was attend by several of the 9-11 terrorists, he reportedly yelled "allah akbar" when he committed that act, he was even previously under investigation for making contact with radical muslim clerics in Yemen. I'm tired of all this pc talk about whether this was religiously motivated, there's no doubt it was. And yes Islam is a violent religion, do some reading, it was founded by a polygamist war lord. On another note, why wouldn't he be tried under the UCMJ? Seems like the swiftest path to a well deserved firing squad.

Saying/yelling 'allah akbar' does not a terrorist make. How many times have you said 'thank god' or 'god dammit' etc. That doesn't make you a christian terrorist.

As far as the mosque connection ... if there is only one mosque in DC (unconfirmed, I'm lazy), then lots and lots of muslims have attended the same mosque as the 9-11 terrorists.

I think the difference between this being a heinous crime or a heinous terrorist attack is this douchebag's intention. If he had a political aim, then he's a terrorist. If he did this out of personal cowardice, then he's a 'simple' criminal. Don't let the red herrings cloud the issue. Either way, he should be completely healed medically then executed, slowly, by hand.

[AEWingsMN]

Saying/yelling 'allah akbar' does not a terrorist make. How many times have you said 'thank god' or 'god dammit' etc. That doesn't make you a christian terrorist.

As far as the mosque connection ... if there is only one mosque in DC (unconfirmed, I'm lazy), then lots and lots of muslims have attended the same mosque as the 9-11 terrorists.

I think it depends on which context he said "allu akhbar".... I don't think I'd go down in a hailstorm of gunfire screaming "THANK GOD" unless I meant it. Especially, if this is a common way for suicide islamic attackers to go out. Then I think it is just his way of justifying it to his God "God I"m doing this for you", "God don't hate me for this, it is in your name." I think if any Christian went out saying "God is Great", I would believe his motivation was a religious attack. Thus I take the Ft Hood shootings as at least a personal Jihad on his part. To me it shows that it wasn't just him snapping and shooting people up, and he just so happened to be muslim. The only exception to all this would be if he was getting return fire and feared he was dying and this was going to be his last words to his god "God you are Great, take me".

But due to the greater circumstances of everything lately, I believe that if he was religiously motivated, it makes it a terrorist attack. His goal was to strike fear, and as a psychologist or whatever I'm sure he knew that fear would be struck if he did this. Hell, even if his goal was just to kill everyone, he had to know he wouldn't and that fear would be struck, and he still did it, therefore it fits that uber-vague definition of Terrorism in my eyes, but I think even that definition is now in the eye of the beholder, so this whole debate is kinda weak in the first place.

In terms of the mosque, the way I understood it is that there are several in D.C. and Muslims usually attend several, not just one all the time. And this specific mosque that they all attend is one of the larger (if not largest) ones, that just about all muslims in that area go to, thus really dulling down this relationship, But now they are saying he had attempted to email al qaeda (who supposedly laughed him off)

Anyway, I also found this, which basically states the whole "is the military to concerned about PC?" question, and it's from an actual news source not just a blog (yes foxnews, but as much of a news source as any of the other flawed major outlets in my mind, CNN etc):

https://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,573469,00.html

[M2]

Saying/yelling 'allah akbar' does not a terrorist make. How many times have you said 'thank god' or 'god dammit' etc. That doesn't make you a christian terrorist.

As far as the mosque connection ... if there is only one mosque in DC (unconfirmed, I'm lazy), then lots and lots of muslims have attended the same mosque as the 9-11 terrorists.

I think the difference between this being a heinous crime or a heinous terrorist attack is this douchebag's intention. If he had a political aim, then he's a terrorist. If he did this out of personal cowardice, then he's a 'simple' criminal. Don't let the red herrings cloud the issue. Either way, he should be completely healed medically then executed, slowly, by hand.

This.

Don't fold under the media sensationalism surrounding this incident. Hassan will get a court martial and justice will be served; but trying to act like this is another 9/11 is unfounded at the moment. Circumstantial evidence such as praying at the same mosque as the 9/11 terrorists is not a direct linkage, and the claims that he was yelling "Allah Akbar!" while shooting have not be confirmed.

I think he was a nut case that simply popped his cork. The Army prefers that he is label a terrorist as that relieves them of their culpability for what happened. They knew this guy was a loose cannon and a lackluster officer; but in typical Army response, they were going to deploy him anyway.

I know a lot of people use that route to get out of deployments, but you can't forget that some people are simply nuts and shouldn't go. Ft Hood has the highest suicide rate in the Army, and double that of the national average. PTSD plays a significant part in that, and despite not having experienced combat firsthand; Hassan was subjected to the horrors of many soldiers who had. It is called Secondary PTSD and is a significant issue not only for the families of soldiers but those that treat them as well. Given Hassan's unstable mental state, this could have certainly been a contributing factor in what he did.

None of this is to excuse or relieve him of his actions, but just to understand the situation better. As I said, justice will be served and Hassan has a better chance of a fair trial from the military than he would in a civilian court. But unless there is evidence that this was a planned and coordinated attack, calling it a terrorist event is purely media-driven hyperbole...

[brabus]

but maybe should look at Christianity more before comparing.

I never tried to compare Islam to Christianity. Hell, look at the Crusades...that was the exact same thing as terrorism today. People taking scripture out of context/the wrong way and using it as justification for violence against others. In fact, if I had lived back then, I would have called Christianity a religion of violence...b/c it was, at the time. However, right now Christianity is not promoting wide scale violence against others, but Islam is. Like I said above, that's not to say there are plenty of good muslims who do not take those passages as direct guidance to kill all westerners, but who has committed 98% of terrorist acts in the past 30 yrs...Muslims. Maybe things will change in the future, but that's the way it is right now.

[HerkDerka]

Screw semantics. He's a terrorist asshole. As such, I will provide him with some of my ideology...enjoy your 72...that's 72 milligrams of potassium chloride.

[Herk Driver]

As I said, justice will be served and Hassan has a better chance of a fair trial from the military than he would in a civilian court.

It's unfortunate that they plan to try him via court-martial instead of allowing the state of TX to try the case, IMO.

[disgruntledemployee]

Alright Vertigo, nsplayr, and any other that wishes to defend Islam. I don't care about the crusades, the history of violence in religion, blah, blah, blah. How many Christian (or non-muslim religions) out there are teaching holy war, hate, etc. in the classroom? Chirp chirp (crickets). Now who thinks that muslims preach hate and holy war on a daily basis, raise your hand. And thats the point in current times. Hell, here is a linky, because I know all you scholarly types out there love evidence. Obsession, the Movie

Hasan a terrorist? Snapped? I'll agrue that islam conditioned him to "snap" in the manner he did. He was too chicken to give himself a 180 grain headache, so he chose to shoot lots of people knowing he would be gunned down. Now that the dick is still alive, every nutcase lawyer out there will now try to blame everyone/everything else for his actions. The prosecution won't blame islam, as its not PC.

But I know that in the end, he will find out that there are no virgins when they execute him.

Out

[Guest PerArduaAdAstra]

It's unfortunate that they plan to try him via court-martial instead of allowing the state of TX to try the case, IMO.

Whatever liberal ACLU lawyer it is that signs up as his defense attorney, they will argue that it is impossible to find an unbiased military jury to sit on this case and tie this thing up in appeals forever and a day.