2009 Fort Hood Shooting

[sky_king]

Screw semantics. He's a terrorist asshole. As such, I will provide him with some of my ideology...enjoy your 72...that's 72 milligrams of potassium chloride.

I think the General Pershing method of pig blood soaked bullets with a butchered pig burial would be nice for this worthless piece of shit coward.

[Vertigo]

How many Christian (or non-muslim religions) out there are teaching holy war, hate, etc. in the classroom? Chirp chirp (crickets).

Scott Roeder

Eric Rudolph

James Kopp

Westboro Baptist Church

The Concerned Christians

The Lambs of Christ

The Army of God

The Lord's Resistance Army

Russian National Unity

National Liberation Front of Tripura

Sons of Freedom

These groups/individuals got started somehow. Someone instilled their beliefs in them. I don't think it was a muslim imam.

[Whitman]

I think the General Pershing method of pig blood soaked bullets with a butchered pig burial would be nice for this worthless piece of shit coward.

"2". Blackjack Pershing didn't play around. We need more like him.

[slacker]

Scott Roeder

Eric Rudolph

James Kopp

Westboro Baptist Church

The Concerned Christians

The Lambs of Christ

The Army of God

The Lord's Resistance Army

Russian National Unity

National Liberation Front of Tripura

Sons of Freedom

These groups/individuals got started somehow. Someone instilled their beliefs in them. I don't think it was a muslim imam.

Vertigo, you never cease to amaze me. Good job. [/not]

Edited November 11, 2009 by slacker

[Guest Hueypilot812]

The Quran itself isn't necessarily the source for most of the problems inherent in modern Islam. Most people don't consider the Hadiths, which are supposedly translated sayings of Mohammed himself. Many of the traditions of Muslim society that are criticized by the West are found in the Hadiths, including the harsh treatment of people under Sharia law, the requirement for women to be totally covered, lack of basic rights for many women, and all the other odd rules incorporated into modern Islam.

While the official explanation of the Hadiths is they are literal translations of Mohammed's word and beliefs, they are actually considered (by non-Muslims studying Islam, as well as "Quranists" that believe the Quran should stand on its own without the Hadiths) to be more along the lines of cultural applications to Islam. In other words, there really aren't any passages in the Quran restricting women from certain rights...in fact, women are endowed with basic rights in the Quran. But the Hadiths essentially rescind these rights, as they are supposedly "clarified" by the prophet himself (despite the Quran being the Word of God as translated by Mohammed). Essentially, after Mohammed's death, various tribal leaders (and religious leaders) felt sway to apply their own cultural taboos and laws and justified it by stating those cultural traditions were stated by Mohammed, thus creating a "Hadith".

Different divisions of Islam study and adhere to different Hadiths. There are some Muslims that are "Quranic" Muslims that do not believe in Hadiths, but these people are in the extreme minority. The two major divisions of Islam, Sunni and Shi'a, both believe in their own sets of Hadiths.

If you don't follow what Hadiths are, it's along the lines of how the Catholic church back in the medieval ages created it's own laws and rules based on the edicts of the Pope, versus what was actually in the Bible. The new rules weren't necessarily in the Bible, nor did they often even have any Biblical connection. Islam faces a very similar situation today with the various Hadiths in use. In many cases, the rules and traditions in the Hadiths are practiced far more often than the actual words of the Quran, which is supposed to be the literal Word of God.

As it was put to me by an Iraqi last year..."Culture and tradition outweighs religion". If their culture says "women should be covered" but the Quran says women should have rights...well, culture trumps religion. It's the Arab way.

Don't ask my how to explain how those people operate...I tried to understand for a year, and it made my head hurt. There's a reason why there's a large rift between East versus West.

[Vertigo]

Vertigo, you never cease to amaze me. Good job. [/not]

Can't argue the topic so attack the debater.

If people can throw a blanket statement that Islam is a violent religion, then others can throw a blanket statement saying the same for Christianity.

Are the idiots we're fighting muslim... yes.

Do they use Islam to justify their deeds... yes.

Do the organizations I listed above use Christianity to justify their deeds... yes.

There's roughly 1.5 billion muslims in the world. If Islam is, as Brabus would have us believe, a violent religion then it would stand to reason that there would be 1.5 billion muslim terrorists in the world. No? You mean it's probably only a small percentage of muslims are terrorists? But how can that be? Maybe it has something more to do with the culture in the middle east rather than the actual religion.

That being said I personally believe this individual was troubled and in his twisted mind used his religion to justify a personal jihad. Just as Eric Rudoplh and Scott Roeder did. The difference here being there were plenty of clues that Hasan was cracking and turning extremist, and people overlooked them for fear of being accused of profiling.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Vertigo

[HossHarris]

Scott Roeder

Eric Rudolph

James Kopp

Westboro Baptist Church

The Concerned Christians

The Lambs of Christ

The Army of God

The Lord's Resistance Army

Russian National Unity

National Liberation Front of Tripura

Sons of Freedom

These groups/individuals got started somehow. Someone instilled their beliefs in them. I don't think it was a muslim imam.

And while everyone is excited about the 'islamist threat' keep in mind that the 2nd worst terrorist attack on the US was perpetrated by a plain old middle aged white guy.

[Vertigo]

And while everyone is excited about the 'islamist threat' keep in mind that the 2nd worst terrorist attack on the US was perpetrated by a plain old middle aged white guy.

True, but McVeigh didn't use religion as an excuse for what he did. In fact in an interview with Time magazine he said that even though he was raised Catholic he lost touch with his religion while in the military. Kind of apples and oranges when it comes to this topic.

[M2]

Either way, the fact that Hassan will be tried in a military court indicates that authorities are not treating this like a planned terrorist attack...

[ClearedHot]

Either way, the fact that Hassan will be tried in a military court indicates that authorities are not treating this like a planned terrorist attack...

Personally I am elated that the military is going to try him.

He spend all this time and effort trying to get out of the military and now we can force this scum to put the uniform on everyday until they drive a couple of .223's through the center of his chest or hang him. (I know the U.S. military has not executed anyone since 1961, and I am sure they will use lethal injection, but this POS deserves a throw-back method.)

[Vertigo]

until they drive a couple of .223's through the center of his chest

Bacon covered .223's

[M2]

Personally I am elated that the military is going to try him.

He spend all this time and effort trying to get out of the military and now we can force this scum to put the uniform on everyday until they drive a couple of .223's through the center of his chest or hang him. (I know the U.S. military has not executed anyone since 1961, and I am sure they will use lethal injection, but this POS deserves a throw-back method.)

I agree, as his chances of a fair trail are greater with a court martial. Regardless of his motivations, he needs to be held accountable for his actions, and this would be the perfect opportunity to bring back the execution option...

[slacker]

That being said I personally believe this individual was troubled and in his twisted mind used his religion to justify a personal jihad. Just as Eric Rudoplh and Scott Roeder did. The difference here being there were plenty of clues that Hasan was cracking and turning extremist, and people overlooked them for fear of being accused of profiling.

That I can agree with. However, your logic that Islam and Christianity are equally violent, I can't.

Edited November 11, 2009 by slacker

[Guest wannabeflyer]

There always going to be radicalized extremist who take any religion out of context and use it for violence. IE abortion clinic bombers. However a religion can't be judged on this basis but rather on what it actually teaches and how that influences the majority of its followers. Yes the old testament of the bible has a lot of violent passages. However Christians use the new testament as their primary source of guidance. Christians-or Christ followers-follow the teachings of Jesus, a man who taught to "love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you" Mathew 5:4 and "turn the other cheek." Mathew 5:39. Instead of leading an insurrection to gain power, humbly died on a Roman cross. Islams founder on the other hand was a warlord. The two men couldn't be more different, Islam has been spread by the sword since its inception. Christianity spread under persecution until Emperor Constantine became a Christian and issued an edict enforcing religious tolerance. If you take Christianity to the extreme, you should be someone who's life is devoted to helping others. If you take Islam to the extreme, being a martyr is highest form of worship, and guarantees you a spot in heaven with 40 virgins.

Those who believe, fight in the cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Satan. So fight you against the friends of Satan. Ever feeble indeed is the plot of Satan.

—Qur'an, [Qur'an 4:76]

[Vertigo]

That I can agree with. However, your logic that Islam and Christianity are equally violent, I can't.

I never said they were equally violent. My point was you can't throw a blanket statement out that X religion is violent, whether it's Islam, Christianity, Judaism, or worshiping the Flying Spaghetti Monster. If the vast majority of the 1.5 billion Muslims in this world were violent then obviously you could make a blanket statement.. but the fact of the matter is the terrorists/extremists are a very small percentage of a rather large population. Just as the Rev Fred Phelps, Scott Roeders, Eric Rudolphs don't represent the Christians in the world, terrorist Muslims don't represent the Muslim community as a whole.

I will concede that the majority of terrorist acts being committed in the last two decades have been committed by Muslims, but again I think that has entirely everything to do with their culture and their extremist views of Islam and not the actual religion itself.

[TreeA10]

worshiping the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Anyone badmouths the Flying Spaghetti Monster or publishes cartoons or drawing of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and I am going to call down the wrath of my fellow marinara warriors and hurl meatballs of biblical and hunger satisfying proportions at the pasta infidel.

[Breckey]

RAmen!

[HossHarris]

RAmen!

I, too, have been touched by his noodly appendage!

(STS)

[tac airlifter]

I will concede that the majority of terrorist acts being committed in the last two decades have been committed by Muslims, but again I think that has entirely everything to do with their culture and their extremist views of Islam and not the actual religion itself.

Thats a good point, and the logical follow up question is: How much of their culture is influenced by their religion?

Any verse from just about any religious text can be quoted in isolation and misunderstood or misrepresented. So instead look at the great men (or women) of a particular faith to get an idea of what it teaches. When you contrast Mohammed with Jesus any attempt to equate the two faiths rapidly fails. They were opposites.

Bottom line, if this attack originated from his religious beliefs then I think you have to call it terrorism. But if this act originated from the fact that he was an crazy asshole, it's hard to lable that terrorism. Until we interview him and know for sure what his intent was, I think in this climate today it is reasonable to lable this as terrorism since he had to know the act and his faith would be linked.

[Steve Davies]

...but the fact of the matter is the terrorists/extremists are a very small percentage of a rather large population.

I would agree with that argument on the surface (I have three Muslim friends, each of whom follow Islam to varying degrees), but I think that it represents a somewhat oversimplified analysis that fails to address the worrying trends that are developing.

One of those trends is here in Britain, and I dare say in many European countries where Islam is on the ascendency, where Islam is incompatible with the existing legal and cultural framework. This causes even moderate Muslims a dilemma - should they be good Britons first, or should they be good Muslims and accommodate their fellow Britons only on the proviso that they are living life in accordance with the preachings of the Koran? At this juncture, many Muslim Britons have real difficulty in making their minds up as to which path to follow.

When you combine that dilemma with the very clever and persuasive techniques employed by radical Islamists, you suddenly have the potential for a good number of Muslims to stop trying to assimilate into non-Muslim communities, and for them to follow a strand of Islam that not only condones violence, but encourages it. The possibility that this could or will happen with Christianity or Judaism is almost negligible; Islam is a pressure cooker that is slowly building up steam - you may not be experiencing that in the US at the moment, but you will start to see it eventually.

So, no, 1.5Bn Muslims can't all be terrorists, and for the vast majority that live in societies compatible with Islam, the chances are they won't ever perpetrate a terrorist act against another. For those that don't, there is an increasing struggle going on between Islam and State (see Britain, Holland, France, Germany et al). If the results of that are not to their liking, then I worry in what direction things will head.

Additionally, I am fairly sure that Islam is the only religion thatactively encourages its followers to murder those who speak out against the prophet. Which other religion permits senior scholars to pronounce death sentences?

Just as the Rev Fred Phelps,Scott Roeders, Eric Rudolphs don't represent the Christians in theworld, terrorist Muslims don't represent the Muslim community as awhole.

I don't know much about the people you mention, but I would suggest to you that the real issue here is not one of representation, but of assimilation (or lack thereof) and protection.

Over here, assimilating moderate Muslims into the wider community has largely failed, and that is problematic on several levels. One of those levels is that the moderate community have in the past failed to act when "home-grown" terrorists have come into being here in the UK. The Muslim community here is addressing this, but only after being put under considerable pressure to do so, and with very little to show for it so far.

So, no, they may not represent the terrorists, but neither do they represent the terrorists' victims. Conversely, I am fairly sure that most honest Christians over here and in the US would happily turn-in a nut-job Christian who said he was doing God's work by blowing up a train full of people.

In any case, having heard about the Royal Saudi Air Force crews who - in the presence of USAF exchange officers - cheered when the twin towers were hit, and about the popularity in Muslim countries of twin towers cigarette lighters, I would wager that they represent a lot more Muslims than might care to concede.

I will concede that the majority of terrorist acts being committed in the last two decades have been committed by Muslims, but again I think that has entirely everything to do with their culture and their extremist views of Islam and not the actual religion itself.

The 'actual' religion? It's *totally* subjective - there is no 'actual' religion.

[TreeA10]

Regarding Steve Davies comment on muslims in Europe reminded me of the book "While Europe Slept." Very interesting reading about assimilation or the lack thereof and the associated cultural problems currently and in the future.

[Guest PerArduaAdAstra]

And so the bullshit that will be assoicated with this case begins.

I suppose it is all part of living in a democracy that believes that everyone is innocent until proven otherwise. Even when the whole f*cking world knows this person is guilty.

Fort Hood Suspect's Attorney Says Fair Trial In Doubt

A Texas defense attorney said Wednesday that he is concerned that President Obama's appearance at a memorial service for 13 people killed in a shooting spree at Fort Hood could make it difficult for his client to get a fair trial.

John P. Galligan, a retired military officer and attorney, said accused gunman Army Maj. Nidal Hasan has not yet been charged and that any military proceeding could be tainted.

"Any defense council mindful of the events [Tuesday], I think, would share in my concern that that be a factor, among others, that has to be reviewed," Galligan said during an interview outside the noisy entrance to nation's largest Army post.

Although Obama did not mention Hasan by name, the president made reference to the accused gunman's Islamic faith in a speech before the crowd of 15,000 at the Texas memorial service

Read the rest of it on the NPR website(!)

[disgruntledemployee]

Bottom line, if this attack originated from his religious beliefs then I think you have to call it terrorism. But if this act originated from the fact that he was an crazy asshole, it's hard to lable that terrorism. Until we interview him and know for sure what his intent was, I think in this climate today it is reasonable to lable this as terrorism since he had to know the act and his faith would be linked.

His stated motives will change, from what he originally intended, to satisfy whatever political/social/religious ideas he is dreaming up at this moment. Thus, I don't care about his motive. I call it a terrorist act based what he is and what he did, not some motive. And before any liberals get their panties in a bunch and start siting other examples of workplace shootings, save it. Anyone that attacks our military, foreign or domestic, in such a way as Hasan, is a terrorist. The symbology of such an attack is overwhelmingly obvious.

... Islam is incompatible with the existing legal and cultural framework.

Steve, that is so key; Islam is incompatible with any secular/non-muslim form of government.

[TreeA10]

Steve, that is so key; Islam is incompatible with any secular/non-muslim form of government.

Okay, more reading suggestions. "What went Wrong?" The cultures in the Middle East led the world in art, science, and math while Europe was somewhat backward and lagging. Somewhere around 1300 AD, that changed and the Middle East stopped their cultural growth. And the book "Infidel" which covers conflict between Christian and Islamic cultures up through Bosnia/Kosovo.

[yerfer]

Here's the part i don't think has been discussed, was he even likely to be on the front line? I don't think so because his job was medic related, so it wasn't like he was going to be shooting at fellow Muslims. And trust me, he knew his job. I highly doubt he believed he would be killing muslims, in fact, I highly doubt he'd have felt more guilty about doing his job there rather than here. Unless he was just to cowardice to deal with the fact that he would have more of his patients coming directly from the war (as it was reported he had heard so many horror stories and was scared of the war for that reason) and that all he would be doing is dealing with horror stories. I really think he just saw this as a prime opportunity to take his role as a "muslim" in his mind (not that all muslims believe this, but I believe he did, or he wouldn't have done it) and take out combatants that would soon be in the fight before they even got to the fight.

Therefor I would put it as Terrorism as described by Stoliet. I really think also, his posts online about being compared to a suicide bomber/guy who jumps on a greanade, are more evidence that he was attacking, not just mentalling breaking down. And thus I also believe he was doing it as an extremist muslim... maybe not from the thought that "all non-muslims must die", but at least from the "i'm going to take them out before they take out my fellow muslim's" attitude.

I would doubt he was tied to any terrorist agencies (other than going to the same mosque as the hi-jackers from 9/11 as reported, but i guess like every muslim in D.C. goes to that mosque occasionally). But I still see it as a religious attack, even if it was "pre-emptive defense" of fellow muslims as I describe.

I was reading a article from New York Times called Painful Stories Take a Toll on Military Therapists. It said, officials say that in 2007, there were 200 such specialists serving more than 130,000 troops, driving between bases on bomb-rigged roads.

This statement caught my attention, as I have met therapists who've been transported back and forth from multiple bases on dangerous roads and the prospect of never knowing when you're going to die, scares the shit out of some people. To add to that, they are seeing soldiers over issues of death happening in war... like being involved in the detonation of a road side bomb.

Sad how this Major decided to handle himself for what ever reasons he had, but their is no doubt that the Army is behind on sufficient help. Just this year, 117 soldiers on AD were reported to have committed suicide. The Army has only 408 psychiatrists - military, civilian and contractors - serving about 553,000 AD troops around the world. Imagine trying to serve the masses with not enough time and resources? Most of the time Army psychiatrists are only prescribing medication rather than working with patients using counseling methods for rehabilitation.

I recently had a insightful conversation with a close friend of mine who is a successful therapist dealing with all issues. I asked her what it's like dealing with peoples problems on a daily level? She said, it's heavy, but more than that, it's hard to bring in a patient and listen to overwhelming circumstances and problems and then walk them to the front and completely let go of everything you just heard to do it over again with a new patient. Do this everyday, all day long, and it can really mess up GOOD people. I personally know of a AF officer who did this for 6 years AD and never wants to work in therapy ever again.

I have no clue the underlying intentions of this officer who killed all these innocent people, but I wouldn't just pull a terrorist card because of a name, belief, or social norm idea being thrown around.

I hope the investigation for this story is revealed for all to see and that he's given a suffice punishment.