Little Rock info

[Guest misfitz]

Well I guess since this topic is still alive I'll follow up... :)

We did end up getting a furnished house on base... it's a pretty good deal, just your Little Rock BAH plus $150 for furniture, cable, internet, etc. We brought our dog with us, but some friends of ours have been kind enough to adopt our cat. A lot of couples from Corpus have done the same thing; it's convenient to be on base and cheaper than keeping a house in Corpus. So it all worked out, thanks for all of your input! Hope this helps someone else in the same situation later on.

[Guest mom2two]

We're moving to LR in July....my idea was to do a partial DITY, rent a truck, take only our couches, TV, table, some kitchen supplies, our beds (I have 2 kids with one on the way, to be delievered in LR), one dresser and some toys for the kids. Money wise, is that worth it? What will we get for BAH....is it LR BAH or does our BAH stay the same because we're TDY? I've looked into renting furniture (that seems too expensive) and I've looked into furnished apartments (that seems to expensive too). I'm really confused, even with all the posts above, as to what is most cost effective. More help PLEASE!!

[Guest ACJ7464]

We're moving to LR in July....my idea was to do a partial DITY, rent a truck, take only our couches, TV, table, some kitchen supplies, our beds (I have 2 kids with one on the way, to be delivered in LR), one dresser and some toys for the kids. Money wise, is that worth it? What will we get for BAH....is it LR BAH or does our BAH stay the same because we're TDY? I've looked into renting furniture (that seems too expensive) and I've looked into furnished apartments (that seems to expensive too). I'm really confused, even with all the posts above, as to what is most cost effective. More help PLEASE!!

Not too worry, hopefully we can make sense of the Little Rock Housing Options.

I can speak from experience on several of your questions. My guard unit PCS'd me to my Home of Record (HOR) after winging in Corpus. I completed a DITY move of my stuff to the east coast of 8000lbs. I was paid for that move and I think I netted $3500. I was authorized 600# for my TDY stint at Little Rock. I made ~$1000 for the 600# and my travel reimbursement. That more than covered the moving truck and our hotel and meals moving to LRAFB.

The biggest thing to consider/realize is you will be getting $27/day in lodging reimbursement and at least $12.30/day in per diem. That is at least an "extra" $1000/month. Along with that $1000/month I still receive my HOR BAH and BAS.

That is my story and I am sticking to it.

As for possible housing when you get here. I would suggest living on base. This is where many of the students with dependants are currently living. There are two options: unfurnished or furnished. The Unfurnished cost is equal to your Little Rock, AR BAH. Furnished costs Little Rock BAH plus $150 for furniture, cable, Internet, etc, as described by misfitz. There is a document with a lodging discussion at https://www.baseops.net/littlerock.html. If you have more specific questions feel free to PM me. I can forward you a copy of the housing gouge I sent my classmates from Corpus. It is a little more detailed about living on base.

Good Luck

ACJ

[MacGyver]

I am a guard guy going from Corpus to Little Rock this summer. My home unit just sent me my orders. They are for a PCS to Little Rock the day after my Winging. I am trying to explain to them that this should be a PCS back home followed by TDY to the Rock.

I have heard other students around here that have been dealing with similar issues since money has been so tight in the Air Force for TDY pay. Has anyone found the rule here? What have you guys been doing?

I did search, seems like most are still going TDY?

[Champ Kind]

Maybe the funding well finally dried up after paying every stud going through there roughly 12 grand a piece in per diem.

[Finance_Guy]

It's up to how personnel wants to handle it. No mention of the length of your course, so I wasn't sure which one might apply. There are also rules about pipeline status that is covered in the Personnel 36 series AFIs. Parts of the JFTR Guidance are shown below:

Effective 5 December 2005

U2146 TIME LIMITATIONS FOR TDY PERIODS (COURSES OF INSTRUCTION)

A. TDY for Training Less Than 140 Days (20 Weeks)

1. General. Course(s) of instruction at a school or installation with a scheduled duration of less than 140 days

(20 weeks) are TDY. No per diem is payable if prohibited by par. U7125-B. If the scheduled duration of the

course is 140 or more days, the school or installation is that member's PDS, except when the course is

authorized as TDY under par. U2146-B.

B. TDY vs. PCS Status for Training Courses of 20 or More Weeks

1. The Secretary concerned (without delegation) may authorize a designated course (excluding initial entry

courses) scheduled for:

a. 20 or more weeks,

b. But not more than 180 days in length

to be attended and completed in a TDY status, rather than in a PCS status.

Anytime you see "Secretary Concerned" in JFTR, for AF, this usually means AFPC or AF/A1.

JFTR Link

Edited May 10, 2007 by Finance_Guy

[DigDug]

Maybe the funding well finally dried up after paying every stud going through there roughly 12 grand a piece in per diem.

I'm not sure paying 2x household goods shipments (one to the Rock and one to your perm-station), plus a dislocation allowance (probably only entitled to one - the 1 year rule) are cheaper than the per-diem. I'm sure the bean counters have looked at all that though if this is the new policy.

Look at it this way - at least you get to bring your family (if you have one) and choose where you want to live!!!

[Finance_Guy]

I'm sure the bean counters have looked at all that though if this is the new policy.

Could be right since TDY's are paid from O&M dollars, whereas a PCS is paid from the MilPers Account. Many units hit for the TDY funds say no to the TDY since they have no funds, leaving a PCS move on the table provided the length of the training falls into one of those moves that could be classified a PCS.

[Clayton Bigsby]

Pretty sure most Guard and Reserve fellas aren't considered in the 'pipeline'. However they make up for this by giving them Type-II BAH (roughly half of what you normally get).

[Guest dtfl]

I am a guard guy going from Corpus to Little Rock this summer. My home unit just sent me my orders. They are for a PCS to Little Rock the day after my Winging. I am trying to explain to them that this should be a PCS back home followed by TDY to the Rock.

I have heard other students around here that have been dealing with similar issues since money has been so tight in the Air Force for TDY pay. Has anyone found the rule here? What have you guys been doing?

I did search, seems like most are still going TDY?

Some are some arent. Guys in our unit got around that by attending the qual course only..coming home for a couple months to bum then going back for mission qual. Irritated some folks in the unit..but they got their per diem.

Up to you......

[Guest Sulaco]

Pretty sure most Guard and Reserve fellas aren't considered in the 'pipeline'. However they make up for this by giving them Type-II BAH (roughly half of what you normally get).

If you are active for over 30 days in the Guard and Reserves you are entitled to full BAH, this reg went into affect in Oct of 2005.

A nice change from the 90 or 180 day rule, which ever it was before.

[Baseops.Net]

I am requesting help in updating the Little Rock Schoolhouse Guide page at baseops.net (link = Little Rock Page)

I have received many questions about the Little Rock Schoolhouse and unfortunately can only point people in the direction of this webpage. It has been many years since I went through the RTU and would like to update the information I currently have out there.

"Back in the day," there were these courses for pilots:

Copilot Initial Qual -- for initial pipeline guys and for those coming from other airframes without the minimum PIC time requirement. Syllabus was: academics + sims, then all Pro sorties flown from the right seat followed by a Pro checkride then Tac events all flown from the right seat followed by a Tac checkride.

AC Qual -- for guys upgrading from copilot OR those from another airframe with minimum PIC time, etc. Syllabus same as copilot except all events flown from the left seat.

Somewhere on or about 1999-2000 the two checkrides were combined into one large Pro/Tac checkride.

Changes that I head of but cannot confirm (and need help with the details):

-A pro checkride is accomplished in the simulator? (for CP and AC?)

-There is a new MPD syllabus?

--For initial pipeline guys, what is their new syllabus - what is done in the right seat, left seat, etc.

--How many checkrides, in what seat, plane or sim?

-Are there any other new syllabi? What to guys do cross-flowing from other airframes? What about copilots upgrading to AC?

-Any new billeting rules / requirements?

-Any new finance / tdy pay issues at Little Rock?

-Anything else that needs to be updated.

I will be more than happy to credit any contributors by name.

You can post changes in this thread or hit the "contact" button above. Thanks in advance!

[Champ Kind]

Baseops,

I finished up the Initial qual at Little Rock in Feb of this year. My class was the first class to go to the "new MPD program." We were starting Tac academics and one of the Lockheed instructors literally poked his head in the door and said that all new CPs were going to be tac qualified in the right seat only -- guidance would follow later. Upon leaving Little Rock, they still did not really have any official guidance yet, but the answers to your questions are below. Specifically, as far as future plans go, they don't know if the "new MPD guys" will be returning to Little Rock for AC upgrade, or if we'll do it in-house like the other MPD guys before us. Rumor is even if we do go back to Little Rock, they don't want to call it "AC School/upgrade" because that would infer that the MPD program was a failure. At home station, we fly right seat tac routes, and get to fly some left seat pro/SAAMs here and there, with an instructor in the right seat.

As new co-pilots, we left Little Rock as left seat pro qualified, right seat mission qual, NVG airland, and NVG airdrop. We are NOT assault landing qualed, only qual for that is pilot monitoring duties. Once we got to our first station, we could be come NVG Assault qualified, which, again, is just pilot monitoring duties.

Hope this helps:

-A pro checkride is accomplished in the simulator? (for CP and AC?)

Yes. An instrument pro checkride is accomplished in the sim for CP and AC. The "landing check" still occurs down on the flightline before the Tac academics/sim phase.

-There is a new MPD syllabus?

Yes.

--For initial pipeline guys, what is their new syllabus - what is done in the right seat, left seat, etc.

Short answer: left seat pro, right seat tac.

--How many checkrides, in what seat, plane or sim?

3 checkrides:

-Instrument pro checkride (standard ILS, holding, TACAN, 3-eng approach, go around) in the SIM

-Pro checkride ("landing check") from the left seat (100, 50, no flap, 3-eng)

-Tac checkride from the right seat. One vis route as lead, one SKE route as wing. I don't remember flying at all on my vis route, just backing up the nav and talking on the radios. I flew one leg on the SKE, including a turn. That's it.

There are also two EPEs: One systems-oriented EPE in the non-motion sim a few sims before your Instrument check in the sim, and then a tabletop EPE in the tac phase down on the flightline a few flights before your Tac check. Both were with instructors from one of the flying squadrons.

-Are there any other new syllabi? What to guys do cross-flowing from other airframes? What about copilots upgrading to AC?

We had one guy in my class who was a C-21 guy transitioning to Herks. He was with us for academics and then sims and pro, but in the Tac phase, he was flying left seat.

-Any new billeting rules / requirements?

You need a non-A letter to live off base and get full per diem. You can refuse goverment quarters and still get partial per diem while living off base. Single guys WERE still getting Corpus BAH during their TDY at Little Rock.

-Any new finance / tdy pay issues at Little Rock?

I did the monthly accrual vouchers and if I had to go back, I'd say save it for the end. Figuring out how much you got paid out and how much the goverment still owed you when you got to your duty station ended up being a MESS, even though I kept pretty good records. They (Yokota finance) said I actually got overpaid and owed the government money.... Despite my own records, they still took the money out of my account. Both finance offices blamed each other, only further strengthening my opinion that all finance offices equally suck at life.

[Guest nunya]

The "first" MPD guys can still go to LR for AC upgrade. Our squadron's first MPD is there now. But they also can stay in-house for the upgrade. No word yet on how many, much less who, goes and how many will stay for upgrade. It's a much abbreviated course, though, compared to the "legacy" AC upgrade syllabus. Along the lines of 5 weeks.

Edited July 7, 2007 by nunya

[HerkDerka]

-A pro checkride is accomplished in the simulator? (for CP and AC?)

Affirm. Pro checks in the sims for initial qual and AC upgrade. They used to have a "landing check" in the plane. But the last I heard, the sims were upgraded and landings are graded in the sim now.

-There is a new MPD syllabus?

MPDs do their pro in the left seat and tac in the right.

-What about copilots upgrading to AC?

I wouldn't worry too much about it. The last of the true right-seaters will be upgrade-complete within six months.

HD

[Guest Caddis]

-What about copilots upgrading to AC?

I wouldn't worry too much about it. The last of the true right-seaters will be upgrade-complete within six months.

HD

That might be true for AD but not in the ARC. I know some Guard units that do not upgrades their CPs until 1200 to 1500 hours, so there will be some true CPs out there for a while. I am interested to see what the plan is for the stragglers.

As for the MPD program I am not a big fan of its first version. We spent a lot of training time trying to ramp these guys up. I am hoping when the new guys get back with the right seat tac qual it will make for a better product.

[TacAirCoug]

As I understand it, there will no longer be an AC school as of FY 08. Any remaining legacy copilots will have to be upgraded in-unit.

Original MPDs upgrade to AC via a ~2 week course called the Pilot Checkout Course (PCO), which IIRC consists of only NVG airland and day/night assaults. Little Rock offers extremely limited numbers of PCO slots at the schoolhouse (Dyess is only getting something like 4 slots total for FY 08) the rest will be in-unit upgrades using the same syllabus. Both the 463d and 317th have developed their own "PCO Prep" programs which focus on systems, left-seat tac, etc.

Still waiting on guidance for upgrading the new MPDs, but that's a couple of years away anyhow.

[HerkDerka]

That might be true for AD but not in the ARC. I know some Guard units that do not upgrades their CPs until 1200 to 1500 hours, so there will be some true CPs out there for a while. I am interested to see what the plan is for the stragglers.

Good point, is the ARC not going in uprade the last legacy CPs in-house?

As for the MPD program I am not a big fan of its first version. We spent a lot of training time trying to ramp these guys up. I am hoping when the new guys get back with the right seat tac qual it will make for a better product.

The results so far have been positive. The syllabus changes are turning out a better product, but not the best product.

HD

[TacAirCoug]

...but not the best product.

I don't know, I think it's a little early to make that call. If you're implying we need to scrap the MPD program altogether and go back to sending guys to some form of AC school, I won't completely disagree. However, until these "new" MPDs get close to upgrade and we can see how "grown up" they are I'll withhold judgement.

[HerkDerka]

I don't know, I think it's a little early to make that call (snip) Until these "new" MPDs get close to upgrade and we can see how "grown up" they are I'll withhold judgement.

How so? I'm talking about their ability in the right seat, not how good they'll be when they upgrade.

If you're implying we need to scrap the MPD program altogether and go back to sending guys to some form of AC school, I won't completely disagree.

Not completely. I think the MPD program is good in that it loosens up the restrictions placed on CPs after the Evansville accident. But pro in the left and tac in the right is only a step in the right direction. Our initial qual guys need to go back to right seat training, IMHO. There is nothing gained by having a co fly pro in the left seat. It takes all of three flights for a traditional right-seater to get used to flying in the left seat.

IMHO the best way to do business is to train our new co's in the right seat, but let them fly 3-engines, no-flaps, etc. I don't particuarly think we need an AC school at all, in-house upgrade for a traditional CP is no big trick. The problem is logistics. With the ops tempo there's no way to do it.

HD

[TacAirCoug]

How so? I'm talking about their ability in the right seat, not how good they'll be when they upgrade.

Gotcha. I'm just trying to keep the foto grande in mind.

I think the MPD program is good in that it loosens up the restrictions placed on CPs after the Evansville accident. But pro in the left and tac in the right is only a step in the right direction. Our initial qual guys need to go back to right seat training, IMHO. There is nothing gained by having a co fly pro in the left seat...IMHO the best way to do business is to train our new co's in the right seat, but let them fly 3-engines, no-flaps, etc.

Agree 100%.

I don't particuarly think we need an AC school at all, in-house upgrade for a traditional CP is no big trick. The problem is logistics. With the ops tempo there's no way to do it.

Bingo. Back to square one.

[Guest copenhagen]

-Any new billeting rules / requirements?

Not particularly a requirement - but an FYI... They have now privatized the housing completely. Your housing rate is your BAH rate for the local area. For a "furnished" house - it is your BAH plus 150/month. Keep in mind that the furnished housing also includes cable internet and vonage phone and all include a fenced back yard for doggies. Call way ahead of time to get "on the list". Also if you are married/accompanied you can get into the TLF pretty easily (with a reservation). No pets allowed - but the rooms are great... full kitchen/cable/washer dryer.... like a small apartment. You just have to put up with "housekeeping must come in every 48 hours to justify their existance. It can really get annoying...

-Any new finance / tdy pay issues at Little Rock?

I've seen folks get sent there both TDY and PCS for PIQ... Seems to be a unit thing.

-Anything else that needs to be updated.

Champs pretty much summed up the syllabus related things... perhaps mention something about the fact that the 53rd will be shutting its doors soon? Any updates on the timeline for that?

-also... add a note somewhere that the tactics shop now supplies all your charts for your low levels. You just need to chum them for updates after they were last printed. It seems like there was some disconnect between the flightline and the sim instructors... might be adventageous to go get your charts while still in sims and bypass your need to "make your own hand drawn" charts in the sim? My sim instructor just raised an eyebrow when my sim partner and I showed up with CFPS charts and grumbled something about how they "all used to have to hand make them".

[Dead Last]

-A pro checkride is accomplished in the simulator? (for CP and AC?)

Affirm. Pro checks in the sims for initial qual and AC upgrade. They used to have a "landing check" in the plane. But the last I heard, the sims were upgraded and landings are graded in the sim now.

Going through AC School and just had my Landing check in the airplane today... The sim is good enough to take the instrument/non landing part of the checkride but not good enough to land.

cheers

[HerkDerka]

Going through AC School and just had my Landing check in the airplane today... The sim is good enough to take the instrument/non landing part of the checkride but not good enough to land.

Thanks for the update. The last time I was at the rock the rumor had been floating around. I guess someone had their head out of their ass. Sims suck.

HD

[Guest agflyboyaf]

For those that have experience with the furnished units on base, do you get the $27/day for lodging in addition to your BAH?