Squadron Bars

[Guest]

I like this forum but I have to ask, do squadrons even have bars anymore? I mean real bars where guys hang out after work (at least when you're night flying which is an auto-kitchen pass...even for SNAPs), gamble, tell stories, read the Doofer Book, write in the Doofer Book and raise hell on Friday Nights before heading to the Big House? I mean a real bar where fist fights happen followed by high fives and some more beers. Do fighter pilots even get into fist fights anymore?

Have they installed wine racks and potted ferns and comfy furniture? Did they turn the Bars into day cares for all the pilots married to each other?

I think one reason SNAPs are so sensitive for so long is because they aren't getting good training. Every generation needs training. It has always been that way. It sucks when you're new because nothing you do is right but you learn to keep going until the epiphany occurs. I got my ass kicked. A lot.

Have SNAPs been allowed to graduate to without corrective action and hence become the trainers, breeding even more sensitive SNAPs?

If so, this is a legitimate demonstration of a failure of leadership by my generation. I would like to personally apologize to all the Vietnam era guys that trained me who were trained by the Korea guys that were trained by the WW II guys. All those pilots saw what happens in a real fight where USAF jets are turning into fireballs you can see from 50 miles and knew the real meaning of phrases like "you can have my stereo."

Maybe the USAF has become so dominant we have lost the concept of being mentally ready for a shitstorm, reinforced by ROE so detailed guys are afraid to drop a bomb or strafe a truck even when it is the right thing to do because they "might get in trouble" and it is just not worth risking it. Risk is now seen as the risk of getting in trouble, not the risk of "holy shit, if I do this wrong I/my wingman/guys on the ground/all the above will die."

I'm afraid we dropped the ball.

[herkbum]

Wise words from one of the wise ones. Good to see you back Rainman!

[pawnman]

We still have a squadron bar, complete with doofer log and the "slow leak" award for the person who has done the dumbest thing that week (flying or not).

As for the ROE, I'm right there with you. I'm ashamed to admit, but after almost six months of having the ROE crammed down my throat, my first thought when a JTAC says "Stand by 9-line" isn't "Alright, gametime", it's "Oh crap, I hope this isn't on the news before we get home". I hear stories from guys as recent as last year who never came home with full bomb bays, and more often than not, came back Winchester. I've spent most of my time as a giant, 4-man Predator, using the pod to provide recce to the JTAC.

It's sad that we've now gotten to the point where we are actually pushing back on our JTACs and ground commanders...If anyone knows whether or not they need a bomb, it's the guys taking fire on the ground.

It also doesn't help that flying in combat is now just expected. It's barely worth an OPR bullet anymore...the fact that some finance guy processed over 200 vouchers last year is assessed to be as important (OR MORE SO) than the fact that you flew 50 combat missions.

Welcome to the new USAF.

[slacker]

the fact that some finance guy processed over 200 vouchers last year is assessed to be as important (OR MORE SO) than the fact that you flew 50 combat missions.

Word.

[brickhistory]

It wasn't "always better" back then.

There are plenty of memories and historical examples of war-fighting being less important to leadership than 'clerkness.'

Why was Robin Olds such a hero to most here? Because he fought the 7AF/Pentagon risk-aversion and kowtowing to Vietnam-era political correctness. When sortie count counted more than effectiveness.

A four ship of F-4s with only one bomb on each? Launch 'em! Sortie count is what gets the wing king promoted. And the DO.

Korea? Same.

WWII? Even more so. The memories of wearing a freakin' tie (shades of reflective belts!) don't hang in there like the 'good' memories.

There is a difference today in that the information age makes such buffoonery known immediately.

But it is not new.

Doesn't make it right either.

But it is what we (and most other services/countries) pretty much always do.

The experienced aircrews that stay in after the current fights are over (if ever) will be the ones who assume the mantle that Rainman laments as passing. Your stories will no doubt get better with age/time so that the next generations of youngsters look back at those "good old days" when (most) folks flew in the aircraft.

As to fighter (or other combat) squadron bars, not my place to speak on them historically or currently. I hope the informal, but invaluable, lessons are passed on somehow.

The politcally directed ROE have direct historical precedents as well. Shame we have to learn that lesson again as well.

[Guest]

Memories grow fonder with time, eh?

Probably. I had good memories after my first day in the USAF.

On the other hand, everyone shines a ray of sunshine on the good ol' days and tend to forget all the bullshit that happened. You've experienced plenty of bullshit in your time, but you probably don't choose to remember those as much as the barfights and high-fives.

Sure, I suppose i experienced tons of bullshit. I did tend to forget get about the bullshit pretty much right after it happened except to use it as an example of what to avoid or what to fix. The bullshit was always outweighed by the fantastic opportunity I had to have the best job in the world in the most dominant branch of any military force in the history of the planet. No amount of milling around or shitty commanders ever seemed to have any noticable impact on me doing my job once the gear were in the well. The bullshit did give people opportunities to bitch and moan and act like victims. I never understood why some people wanted to approach life that way. Still don't.

My WW2 vet grandfather and uncles scoffed at the Vietnam folks in my family and if I heard "Back in my day..." once, I heard it a thousand times.

I've always considered myself lucky to hear "Back in my day..." stories. Some of my best memories are from the Battle of Britain Memorial weekends when I was in England and the Sandy/A-1, Jolly Green and Society of Combat Search and Rescue reunions. I still participate in organizations where those remaining WWII guys get together to talk about what they did. I am awed by what all those guys went through, what they accomplished and how they set the stage and the standard for me to uphold. I have been flipped a lot of shit by some pretty incredible people (like Robin Olds, Bernie Fisher, Dick Rutan, Jack Allison, Richard Drury and a ton of others) that by the end of the night were totally cool and very interested in hearing about how it is done "nowadays." I never took the shit they gave me as a personal slam and as a result they were willing to offer some really valuable nuggets of timeless information.

Things are the way they are and if I tried to hold up the present and compare it to your anecdotes of the past, I'd always be disappointed.

Bummer.

I'm glad you had it good, but I refuse to live in the past. All I can do is make the best of what's left of our AF traditions.

Thanks, I did and still do have it good. Sometimes it feels like I have it too good. I think part of that is because I chose and choose to see opportunities instead of disappointments. I was taught as a young pup that you are the average of the ten people you spend the most time with and I spent the vast majority of my time in the USAF trying to be around people I respected while avoiding people I didn't. Worked pretty good.

FWIW, I always thought you had to pay attention to the past in order to uphold and honor "our AF traditions" or there would be none left. Someone has to care.

[Guest]

We still have a squadron bar, complete with doofer log and the "slow leak" award for the person who has done the dumbest thing that week (flying or not).

Awesome.

As for the ROE, I'm right there with you. I'm ashamed to admit, but after almost six months of having the ROE crammed down my throat, my first thought when a JTAC says "Stand by 9-line" isn't "Alright, gametime", it's "Oh crap, I hope this isn't on the news before we get home". I hear stories from guys as recent as last year who never came home with full bomb bays, and more often than not, came back Winchester. I've spent most of my time as a giant, 4-man Predator, using the pod to provide recce to the JTAC.

I've been hearing a lot about that fear factor from my bros still out there. The squadron bar can be a good place to hash this kind of thing out...at least it used to be.

It's sad that we've now gotten to the point where we are actually pushing back on our JTACs and ground commanders...If anyone knows whether or not they need a bomb, it's the guys taking fire on the ground.

Amen. Sorting things out with/for the JTAC is always a first priority, especially if he is under stress. Pushing back because you don't want to get in trouble is both dangerous and troubling.

It wasn't "always better" back then.

There are plenty of memories and historical examples of war-fighting being less important to leadership than 'clerkness.'

The politcally directed ROE have direct historical precedents as well. Shame we have to learn that lesson again as well.

Shack.

A must read.

[Vice]

It sucks when you're new because nothing you do is right but you learn to keep going until the epiphany occurs. I got my ass kicked. A lot.

So I sat here trying to write something that wouldn't sound SNAP-ish, but whatever:

I think I'm going through alot of the ass kickings you're talking about, and it sucks. But I noticed that all the screwing up and getting hazed for it is a much better way to learn than to have a mommy figure tell me it's okay.

[Hacker]

Fear not, Brother Rainman. There are still bars in fighter squadrons. There are still doofer books. There are still raging friday nights with drinking, gambling, singing....but the debauchery is gone (no non-military chicks bussed on to base anymore) as are many of the pushes to the Big House.

The fact is, these days I'd rather drink in my own squadron bar instead of the club. The Big House, in fact, has absolutely zero to contribute to a good friday evening. In my squadron bar, I have free alcohol (or, really stuff I've all ready paid for), I hang out with the people I really want to hang out with, I can smoke, gamble, curse, hang brain, etc, without having some douchebag or his wife come over and tell me what I'm doing is offensive.

Until they keep the SPs from arresting people staggering home from the Club for public intox...

Until they allow us to carouse, curse, get sloppy drunk, yell, gamble, smoke, sing vulgar songs, etc at the Club...

Until they start letting non-military women on base and into the Club...

...then I'll have absolutely no reason to go there. That place can fuck off and burn to the ground for all I care until they change their scope of operations.

Anyway, fear not; there are still people who have the right focus and want to train the next generation right. Although we're facing significant resistance, there are people out there who are 'keeping it real'.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Hacker

[Insubordinate & Churlish]

Regarding the first question as to whether or not squadron bars are still around...

We tried to get alcohol in our Port for the end of drill days. We were told that we need TAG approval for it. No one is willing to fight that fight. It makes me sad because I always only ever hear people talking about "how much things have changed" i.e. no more alcohol around the Port. Hell, we're not even allowed to have a snack bar anymore.

The three years I've spent in the Guard have been great, but it sounds like it could be much more.

[brabus]

We still get hammered, smoke, gamble and play crud all in the same night at our bar. There's a lot of giving each other shit in good fun, cussing abounds, there's porn laying out, and it's impossible to offend anyone. I love every minute of it. I won't say it's like the old days, b/c I don't know...but yes, fighter squadron bars are still alive.

Hacker perfectly sums up everyone's feelings on the club. Fuck those guys.

[abmwaldo]

Still a bar in every flying squadron at Elmendorf. Pilots welcome, but the "GOATS" run the "Cage".

[F16Deuce]

It also doesn't help that flying in combat is now just expected. It's barely worth an OPR bullet anymore...the fact that some finance guy processed over 200 vouchers last year is assessed to be as important (OR MORE SO) than the fact that you flew 50 combat missions.

Welcome to the new USAF.

Shack. Shoe Clerk influence in the USAF has gotten to the point of full-retard (referrence the leadership at the 'Deid thread). I once got yelled at by some douchebag REMF for wearing a Friday nametag outside the squadron on a Friday. WTFO? When bullsh!t like getting BVR SOS done, your Master's, etc is more important than reading 3-1, leadership has failed. USAF mission focus, it seems, has gone out the f!ckin' window. Whatever happened to blowing shit up and killing people? Now we are a branch of cyber and space "warriors", whatever the f!ck that is. I digress.

To answer the original question: fear not, the squadron bar/traditions are still strong.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Speaking of SNAPs...

At the C-130E FTU, it was once common for both IP and stud to debrief over a couple bottles of brew. Not too long ago, apparently a stud wrote up in his end of course critique that IPs drinking alcohol presented an unprofessional appearance. That one made it all the way up the chain of AETC, and now we're forbidden to consume alcoholic beverages in front of students. Thanks to ONE kid, an entire community's tradition got shut down. Now students go through the FTU with nary a drink in sight (officially). Leadership actually generally enforces the ban, otherwise they risk their careers...such is the state of our Air Force these days. FWIW, we do have a bar, but it's called the "instructor lounge". It's kept locked and students aren't allowed in it. Apparently having a bar in a flying squadron is a big no-no in AETC (Ain't Even Thinkin' Combat). At least the permanent party has a place to go hang out over beers every once in a while, but it's not like it used to be.

[brabus]

Not too long ago, apparently a stud wrote up in his end of course critique that IPs drinking alcohol presented an unprofessional appearance.

WOW. Mega douchebag doesn't even describe this guy. I hope he realizes what a total toolbag he is...sadly, I'm sure he doesn't.

[ClearedHot]

Speaking of SNAPs...

At the C-130E FTU, it was once common for both IP and stud to debrief over a couple bottles of brew. Not too long ago, apparently a stud wrote up in his end of course critique that IPs drinking alcohol presented an unprofessional appearance. That one made it all the way up the chain of AETC, and now we're forbidden to consume alcoholic beverages in front of students. Thanks to ONE kid, an entire community's tradition got shut down. Now students go through the FTU with nary a drink in sight (officially). Leadership actually generally enforces the ban, otherwise they risk their careers...such is the state of our Air Force these days. FWIW, we do have a bar, but it's called the "instructor lounge". It's kept locked and students aren't allowed in it. Apparently having a bar in a flying squadron is a big no-no in AETC (Ain't Even Thinkin' Combat). At least the permanent party has a place to go hang out over beers every once in a while, but it's not like it used to be.

It is time for me to hang up my helmet.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

WOW. Mega douchebag doesn't even describe this guy. I hope he realizes what a total toolbag he is...sadly, I'm sure he doesn't.

I'm quite sure that kid has the same mentality of the guy who wrote the preachy "you shouldn't drink alcohol and this is why" email that circulated around the USAF a few years back...

I know a bunch of people who choose not to drink for a variety of reasons, but nearly all of them don't care if others drink. Unfortunately the preachy high-horse types have somehow become the example we should all strive to attain nowadays. My dad flew Cobras for the Army in the 1970s and 1980s, and his stories and memories make me shake my head. Gentlemen, we've had our flyer culture and heritage stolen from under us and it's currently being stomped on by political correct shoe clerks and even a few flyers for the sake of careerism.

[Rocker]

Good topic and nice to see you back, Rainman. I rarely sign in anymore, but I had to contribute to this thread, since the topic is near and dear to my heart.

CH, just know that there are those of us out there who are still motivated and will keep traditions alive and encourage new ones as required. Although I don't know how things are at my next squadron, I will engage, support, add to, and improve whatever is in place. That's what I did at my (now) former sqd from the day after I got there and the place is a lot better off for it, though it's hot and cold with the involvement since you have to pull teeth sometimes to get anybody but the diehards to hang out past 1630. Bunch of selfish, lazy, half-hearted whiskey-deltas if you ask me and that goes for both many of the Os and most of the Es (when it comes to the bar, of course). Although - when our guys were deployed, only a few people were in the squadron at any one time and that makes it tougher to plan and execute any meaningful activities. I imparted as much spin as I could on the newer guys before I left, but I have no respect for those who contribute nothing and then take whatever they want when it's convenient for them, or worse, play the idea-fairy in my bar and then vanish when it's time to take action. I've always been bugged about how fighter squadrons have no trouble getting their dudes to cough up landing fees and live and die by their traditions and bars, but our deal was tepid and uninspiring (despite the fact that we had an awesome facility). It comes down to culture, leadership, motivation, and kicking anyone who deviates in the nuts. Unfortunately, when you're one of the few trying to do the kicking, it becomes unworthwhile. But we had some good times back there and I never went home early just because there weren't a ton of people there.

C-130 FTU is GAY-ETC at it's near-finest and had a noticeably more neutered atmosphere when I was there not very long ago for an upgrade compared to my first time through a few years ago.

[contraildash]

In UPT a year ago, the Friday afternoon debrief with beer was standard. Studs and IPs alike drank together, no big deal. Those that didn't drink, still hung around and had coke or something. Don't have to drink to be a bro.

In my current SQ, the commander just left and from what I've seen and been told, there was no culture for traditions at all. My impression was that our prior CC felt "officers should not drink, especially in public." But we do, and he just seemed to tolerate it. Depressing. Hell, while we aren't a fighter SQ, we are based in the old fighter facility, so to me it's sacrilegious that we don't make use of the decent bar area that we have.

The new CC sat down with the SQ last week and said he looks forward to getting together in the SQ bar on Fridays for a few beers, stories, the 'occasional F-bomb', and more SQ based activities. You could feel the weight lifted off the SQ in that room...actual sighs of relief.

[outbreak]

My squadron doesn't have a bar...but we're building one! Somewhere in the midst of a shitstorm in my Sq, the temp leadership decided to turn the room with some tables and a long counter-top back into a squadron bar, instead of the study/computer/daycare/wive's club room it has been since I arrived on station.

Funds were raised before we stepped out the door, real plans had been drawn up (the DO had them hanging in his office, for discussion/recommendation from all of us) and we were having frosty fridays with mandatory attendance ($1 to the bar if you were absent without a reasonable excuse, like flying or leave). A recent email from my FLT/CC said they were actually building stuff in there. The plan is to welcome us home from the desert with kegs in the new Squadron Bar.

Before this, every flight room was a bar after about 1500. The fridges were always stocked by the newbies in the shop, and as long as we weren't walking around the squadron with a beer, the leadership promised that we wouldn't get any flak for it. After a flight, drop the bags, grab a beer to take to debrief.

All this in an airlift squadron. Take THAT fighter guys!

[brabus]

as long as we weren't walking around the squadron with a beer

Impressive. But seriously, that's awesome your squadron has stopped being a bunch of weak dicks when it comes to the bar. Hopefully it turns out to be a sweet bar that everyone uses instead of just 2-3 dudes on a Friday. Don't let dudes skip out on a Friday at 4. I don't care who you are, there is no reason you need to be home on a Friday prior to at least 6.

[Gas Man]

Speaking of SNAPs...

At the C-130E FTU, it was once common for both IP and stud to debrief over a couple bottles of brew. Not too long ago, apparently a stud wrote up in his end of course critique that IPs drinking alcohol presented an unprofessional appearance. That one made it all the way up the chain of AETC, and now we're forbidden to consume alcoholic beverages in front of students. Thanks to ONE kid, an entire community's tradition got shut down. Now students go through the FTU with nary a drink in sight (officially). Leadership actually generally enforces the ban, otherwise they risk their careers...such is the state of our Air Force these days. FWIW, we do have a bar, but it's called the "instructor lounge". It's kept locked and students aren't allowed in it. Apparently having a bar in a flying squadron is a big no-no in AETC (Ain't Even Thinkin' Combat). At least the permanent party has a place to go hang out over beers every once in a while, but it's not like it used to be.

We had some Army dude's wife complain that her husband wasn't coming home right after work because he was drinking after work with his buddies. The complaint made it all the way to the TAG. The TAG put out the word that drinking on any base in the state is vorboten. Army or Air Guard. We thought it was just another order we were going to ignore, but our Wing and squadron leadership are 100% on board. NO ALCOHOL ON BASE. We improvised, adapted, and overcame. Now we all just meet at a bar closeto the base and hang there. They serve us $1 bottles and we take care of the bartender at the end of the night. Also we have a flop house across the street from the bar. No sense anyone getting a DUI.

[nsplayr]

I guess I have mixed views on the squadron bar as a young guy who didn't have the benefit of witnessing the traditions of old. First off let me say that my squadron has a decent bar (looking to improve as well), the keggerator is always operational, and beers are allowed throughout the squadron pretty much any afternoon (especially Fridays). Hell, my FTU debriefs even came with a few beers so I was pretty impressed with that.

On one hand the idea of the bar as a place to hang out with the guys (and the few gals), pass on wisdom, and generally relax is great. I wish more informal mentoring, war-story telling, and etc. went on because I think it would help stem the tide of Big Blue's shoeish influence. One of the reasons we're trying to improve our setup is our current bar doesn't have a lot of table space and it's hard for people to actually hang out there versus in flight rooms, vault, or elsewhere in the squadron.

On the other hand, a much as you almost need to make things mandatory these days to get folks to show up, if I'm a grown man with a wife and kids, there is no reason I should have to stay at work longer than necessary for the sake of hanging out. And I'm not going to pay some arbitrary amount for every week missed if I paid my landing fees in full; F that in the a$$. It's a tough call because if you don't have mandatory fun sometimes there's no fun at all, but the whole "do more with less" mentality applies to time as well and after a long day at work sometimes I'm not that interested in anything other than going home. Throw on that my general lack of appreciation for what I see as some of the more fighter-type traditions (bar fights, excessive hazing, etc.) and I don't honestly know what the right solution is.

Anyways, just some thoughts. Long live the squadron bar as the best alternative to the flaccid O Club but I guess count me out for some of the "mandatory" stuff because fighting for freedom means in part I'm free to spend time with the fam when the work is through.

[sigmanugary]

On the other hand, a much as you almost need to make things mandatory these days to get folks to show up, if I'm a grown man with a wife and kids, there is no reason I should have to stay at work longer than necessary for the sake of hanging out. And I'm not going to pay some arbitrary amount for every week missed if I paid my landing fees in full; F that in the a$$. It's a tough call because if you don't have mandatory fun sometimes there's no fun at all, but the whole "do more with less" mentality applies to time as well and after a long day at work sometimes I'm not that interested in anything other than going home. Throw on that my general lack of appreciation for what I see as some of the more fighter-type traditions (bar fights, excessive hazing, etc.) and I don't honestly know what the right solution is.

Anyways, just some thoughts. Long live the squadron bar as the best alternative to the flaccid O Club but I guess count me out for some of the "mandatory" stuff because fighting for freedom means in part I'm free to spend time with the fam when the work is through.

Well said! If you want to hang out, great, but dudes with families shouldn't have to pay BS fines for mando-fun. I'm all about tradition but it shouldn't have to forced down anyone's throat.

[tac airlifter]

Thats where the traditional bars part company... there is no HAVE to hang out, you should WANT to hang out. Not all day, not all night, not get shitty after work all the time, but have one, tell a story and roll out = perfect.

Look, I get it, especially in the airlift world - youre one the road and/or deployed 250 days a year. You do EVERYTHING together while on the road and deployed, when youre home its family time. I get it.

I dont have any problem with the family guys not hanging out, but when they are outside the bro network and pissed about it, wondering why no one ever calls them, they never hear about anything going on, or no one wants to fly with them, they have no one to blame but themselves...

Chuck

Bingo. I have a wife and two kids and spend pretty much every weekend hanging out with them, which is what I want to do. But Friday afternoons and night flights I'm cracking a brew and staying at the squadron. This is not a normal job where we work and go home, at least it isn't for me. I want to be there talking about flights & hanging with the bros, these guys are my friends. I don't have some other cool group of civilian friends I want to go be with, I like hanging out with the same guys I work with. I think a mandatory fee if I don't show up is pretty gay, but I understand the desire to cultivate a culture. My old squadron tried several times unsucessfully to mandate fun but it just doesn't work. My current squadron is an FTU and they always suck for students. The right answer is what Chuck said: dudes who don't want to hang out, single or married, just aren't part of the bro network. And they should know why.