Squadron Bars

[nsplayr]

2 on that. I smell a nasty, rotten vagina in the house. Makes me wanna puke.

Instead of complaining, get the family involved. Drop the kids off somewhere, let the wife out of the kitchen and have her meet you at the bar. And a few other wives or girlfriends. We are never ones to kick bitches out of the bar (only strippers and midgets are allowed to stay during Roll Call). Hell, your wife is probably already sleeping with half the squadron anyway (fighter pilot humor). Shit, bring your mom too. I kind of like older women as it is. Once your mom/wife have had time to socialize with better men than yourself, have them give said better men rides home to change then out to the clubs. Is all that fighter pilot tradition? No, I think it's just a bunch of friends having a good time together. Of course, if you're flying on Friday, why not make it Saturday evening? BVR SOS and your Masters are the ONLY reasons you're allowed to miss.

But I can see that not taking hold in AFSOC...after all, it is full of "special" heavy pilots...

Hey man, thanks for the advice. Glad the more experienced dudes are always around to lend a brother a hand. Should have stuck to my gut and STFU on this thread but lesson learned. Enjoy my mom, she's been in the ground for about 5 years so just about right for you (oh snap...or was that just more fighter pilot humor... )

Well, I haven't figured out who you are yet, but I think I know which SQ you're in now. Looks like we'll get the chance to have that beer after all...

Sounds good...looks like I'm buying.

Edited December 29, 2009 by nsplayr

[pawnman]

If you can't accomplish it every week, what about once a month? All you really need is the cooperation of the boss and scheduling to minimize flying for one day a month. Then throw a party. Some ideas from bomber-land:

1. Threat of the day briefing - based on something that has recently happened. For example, after a guy in the squadron cracked his skull on a hatch, our threat of the day was "sharp edges".

2. Stories of stupidity - share the buffoonery of your squadronmates with the whole squadron, flying related or not. We also have a vote for the best story, and an "award" for the person who did the dumbest thing that week.

3. FNG quiz - some kind of humorous question to ask the FNGs. In our squadron, if the FNG gets it right, he gets to single out a field-grader to take a shot. If the FNG gets it wrong, he has to take a shot...and when one FNG drinks, they ALL drink.

This is best accomplished with a designated MC. Ours are always accompanied by a Powerpoint slideshow with humorous pictures to highlight the stories/quiz/etc.

In short, I understand that not every squadron has every Friday free to accomplish all these things. But I'm sure you can find time at least once a month for it, right? Feel free to steal any of these ideas, they're just examples to show what may work. And there's always non-alcoholic alternatives available at the bar. Finally, don't think you need the ENTIRE squadron to be free that night...just look for the max participation you can get.

[Bergman]

I can honestly and truthfully say it is not my job to start traditions from scratch and it is not my job to encourage people to hang out at the squadron after work and drink. If those things are going to occur, it's gonna be the SQ leadership's job to ...lead... us to that end.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's easy to call blasphemy on not having RCs or roof stomps or beer lights etc. when you have all those things, everyone in your squadron expects these things, and you accept them as part of AF dogma. When none of those assumptions are true however, it's harder to see how you can integrate the AF traditions without requiring a massive shift in mindset that goes beyond the powers of a lowly LT.

I've been following this discussion and was pretty much on your side - I think you are sincerely just trying to make your squadron better, and I can appreciate that.

But after rereading the above quotes, all I can think of is "entitlement generation" (i.e. SNAP). You are among the newest, youngest members of the squadron with the least amount of family/work responsibility. I hate to break it to you, but it IS your job to encourage people to hang out in the squadron. It is NOT the squadron leaderships' job to make sure these things happen. If the Sq/CC walks in and says "Everyone have a beer!"....that is called mandatory fun. In every single squadron I've been in, the leadership isn't even remotely involved with running the bar, roll call, etc. They let it happen, sure...but they sure as hell aren't the cheerleaders out front trying to get everyone involved. The most involvement I've seen from a CC was when he would get on the all-call at 3:43pm (we were the 343d) and announce that the beer light was on, thus giving tacit approval without being the bartender.

With regard to being unable to find drinking time on Friday nights...you're not trying hard enough. We would routinely have 1800 takeoffs for a 10-12 hour sortie, and would still be in the squadron bar drinking, throwing darts, and shooting pool with the music blaring when the Sq/CC would arrive at work around 0630. He'd ask us to turn the music down, but that was about it. Your results may vary, but if you don't even try the answer will always be "no". Grow some balls, and try being the informal leader who sits down after a sortie and says "Who wants a beer?". You might be drinking alone the first time or two, but I guarantee it'll catch on.

[nsplayr]

I've been following this discussion and was pretty much on your side - I think you are sincerely just trying to make your squadron better, and I can appreciate that.

I'm glad some of my points weren't completely lost. Improvement of good times is the goal.

But after rereading the above quotes, all I can think of is "entitlement generation" (i.e. SNAP).

I can see why you would say that. The problem is most likely that I'm not a big drinker or partier, I won't be spending too much time in the sq in the near future, and frankly my give-a-shit level to go out and personally spearhead this is relatively low despite my posts on here seeking ideas on how to improve. If by entitlement you mean I wish these good traditions already existed well the call me guilty.

The LTs as a whole have been trying to work on improvements for our bar, getting a popcorn machine, beer light, glass tabletops and more chairs and etc. to make some of these events even physically possible. I guess it's just stay the course and expect modest gains.

Over and out because my said give-a-shit level has dropped to 0 for the time being. Thanks to those who provided useful advice.

[FallingOsh]

I can see why you would say that. The problem is most likely that I'm not a big drinker or partier, I won't be spending too much time in the sq in the near future, and frankly my give-a-shit level to go out and personally spearhead this is relatively low despite my posts on here seeking ideas on how to improve. If by entitlement you mean I wish these good traditions already existed well the call me guilty.

Like I said, you don't party and you don't have any (or very little) give-a-shit to improve the squadron. You forfeit the right to complain about how things are run.

Bergman and Vetter were dead on.

[Hacker]

frankly my give-a-shit level to go out and personally spearhead this is relatively low

MFP.

Core of the problem with no desire to fix, got it.

[Guest]

Sounds like a mixed bag. I wasn't really asking about the big once a month blowouts. Those events serve a purpose but I was never too fond of all that structure in the bar.

I think this discussion has devolved to floor. SNAPs get shit on for a lot of things, most of them rightly so. However, it is up to the more experienced guys to teach and mentor them. The guys in the middle have the most important role and should be the ones taking the lead. They are the lost generation. Leadership's role is to make sure the "IPs" know their job and do it correctly. The kind of stuff I am talking about happens with 3 to 10 people in the bar.

BTW, it's not about getting hammered (I don't drink). It is about the desire to learn, the desire to teach and the desire to be part of something bigger than yourself.

[brabus]

I'll say at least my post applies to more than just the "big night." I'd say every Friday, minus a holiday weekend, there is at least 3-4 dudes hanging out, drinking at the bar and talking about whatever we can talk about without being in the vault...and sometimes it does migrate back to the vault. Many times the night evolves into a "big night" after we've decided to call it on the tactics/weapons/etc talk. I've learned a lot from just "BSing" in the bar and I definitely hope it continues at my next squadron.

[Guest]

The reason being (nsplayr I identify with your dilemma) is that at 1530 on a Friday 60% of some squadrons (read AFSOC) are just starting their flight duty period. The other 35% of the squadron is deployed (if not more), 3% of the squadron is TDY/Leave, and the remaining 2% are just too beat up to care about hanging out drinking with each other while everyone else is pre-flighting/briefing, etc. I'm just making up percentages to illustrate a point, but it is hard to do these things when everyone flies at night. Only a small few want to sit around after debrief and have another beer at 3am on Friday night.

Every squadron I was in flew nights a lot. Guys were in the bar when we landed and we stayed after we debriefed. If people had gone home it was up to the SOF and or the Duty Pig to make sure there was fresh popcorn for the guys coming back in for the debrief.

Flying nights can be an auto-excuse for not hanging at the bar OR an auto-kitchen pass so guys can hang at the bar for a few minutes after they debrief.

Not wanting to hang out after the debrief because you're too tired means the debrief was probably not well run. The debriefs may be long but they should conform with the basic rule that the debrief should not last longer than the amount of time you would have spent as a POW if you had actually been shot down (FWIC debriefs excluded).

[Buddy Spike]

I'll say at least my post applies to more than just the "big night." I'd say every Friday, minus a holiday weekend, there is at least 3-4 dudes hanging out, drinking at the bar and talking about whatever we can talk about without being in the vault...and sometimes it does migrate back to the vault. Many times the night evolves into a "big night" after we've decided to call it on the tactics/weapons/etc talk. I've learned a lot from just "BSing" in the bar and I definitely hope it continues at my next squadron.

Dude aren't you still in the B-Course?

[Bergman]

I think this discussion has devolved to floor. SNAPs get shit on for a lot of things, most of them rightly so. However, it is up to the more experienced guys to teach and mentor them. The guys in the middle have the most important role and should be the ones taking the lead. They are the lost generation. Leadership's role is to make sure the "IPs" know their job and do it correctly. The kind of stuff I am talking about happens with 3 to 10 people in the bar.

If that's what you were originally asking about, then rest easy. That sort of thing is a near-daily occurrence. At least in the tanker world.

BTW, it's not about getting hammered (I don't drink). It is about the desire to learn, the desire to teach and the desire to be part of something bigger than yourself.

Shack!!

[brabus]

Dude aren't you still in the B-Course?

Much to your apparent dismay, I'm actually done. Please tell me how my post was irrelevant since it refers to time spent at Luke? I'd honestly like to hear it.

[Buddy Spike]

Much to your apparent dismay, I'm actually done. Please tell me how my post was irrelevant since it refers to time spent at Luke? I'd honestly like to hear it.

Because your soda straw view of "how it is" reflects an AETC theme park experience where everything is very cookie cutter. You have no idea what it's like to be in a squadron on an AEF rotation. Your experience has been shielded from real responsibilities (i.e. - a job) in the squadron in addition to "learning tactics in the bar." It's pretty easy to be very "oohh-rahh sir" when you've never worked a 60 hour week in the squadron trying to get spun up for AEF or ready for the next ORI.

Bottom line: As usual, you are speaking above your experience level here. Congrats on being done with the b-course.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Buddy Spike

[Muscle2002]

Because your soda straw view of "how it is" reflects an AETC theme park experience where everything is very cookie cutter. You have no idea what it's like to be in a squadron on an AEF rotation. Your experience has been shielded from real responsibilities (i.e. - a job) in the squadron in addition to "learning tactics in the bar." It's pretty easy to be very "oohh-rahh sir" when you've never worked a 60 hour week in the squadron trying to get spun up for AEF or ready for the next ORI.

Bottom line: As usual, you are speaking above your experience level here. Congrats on being done with the b-course.

Sounds like someone needs a kitchen pass.

But seriously, it has been during AEF spinup or OREs/ORI time that hanging out in the bar was most important; it's a chance to blow off (sts) some steam as well as have a chance to remember why flying fighters is so damn cool.

[brabus]

Because your soda straw view of "how it is" reflects an AETC theme park experience where everything is very cookie cutter. You have no idea what it's like to be in a squadron on an AEF rotation. Your experience has been shielded from real responsibilities (i.e. - a job) in the squadron in addition to "learning tactics in the bar." It's pretty easy to be very "oohh-rahh sir" when you've never worked a 60 hour week in the squadron trying to get spun up for AEF or ready for the next ORI.

Ok, fair enough; I see your point. Thanks for the input...seriously. Take my AETC opinion out of the equation (I get it), but you'll still see similar sentiments shared by those who have certainly been through those things. Maybe I don't have a leg to stand on, but they sure as hell do. That's simply just an honest observation.

Edited January 2, 2010 by brabus

[Mark1]

Because your soda straw view of "how it is" reflects an AETC theme park experience where everything is very cookie cutter. You have no idea what it's like to be in a squadron on an AEF rotation. Your experience has been shielded from real responsibilities (i.e. - a job) in the squadron in addition to "learning tactics in the bar." It's pretty easy to be very "oohh-rahh sir" when you've never worked a 60 hour week in the squadron trying to get spun up for AEF or ready for the next ORI.

Bottom line: As usual, you are speaking above your experience level here. Congrats on being done with the b-course.

Cut him some slack. While Brabus and his squadron mates were busy maintaining the last bastion of Air Force tradition at their squadron bar, and talking down to those who don't contribute for whatever reason, they forgot to pass around the old "FNGs should keep their mouths shut and ears open" adage.

It probably wasn't worthy of being brought up because time spent in the vault is precious; you can't really blame him. He would probably prefer that you just say "thank you" and go on your way.