Good deals---only for shoes?

[PSYCH]

I'm sitting hear on Christmas morning continuing with the "What do I do with my life" discussion. Lately I have had alot of heartburn with the Air Force and I can't figure out how to make my remaing 5 years of service commitment work for me. For instance, by no means am I the first person to complain about SOS and a masters degree. I have completely swallowed the blue pill and conceded to the fact that I have to do SOS in correspondence in order to be competitive to attend in residence. But what I'll do now is make sure that I do it only on the Air Force time. If that means that I spend 2 hours in front of my computer instead of putting up briefing boards, reviewing tape, or spending time in the vault, then that's what I am going to do. What I categorically refuse to do is to turn my 12 hour day into a 14 hour day so that MAYBE I can get myself a shot to go to SOS in residence. I digress, as that is not the real area of consternation that I have. I have watched my friends from ROTC, pilot training, and now other officers I interact with at Moody and I have followed some of their career progressions. I understand that as a fighter pilot (probably any type of pilot though) that MY career progression means that I go to pilot training, IFF, FTU, an OPS unit, ROK, and then most likely back to the FTU or some type of Alpha tour to round out my service commitment.

My question is this? Why is it that I have seen my intel officer get picked up for DLI with a follow-on to Spain, my college personnel officer buddy picked up to go law school in residence at UNC-CH, or a finance officer given a ROTC instructor gig to complete a masters degree at UT. When I graduated college I earned (used loosely) the blue chip award which to my understanding gave me the opportunity to go to AFIT. Now that I have signed on the dotted line and they have me for 10 years, I am being told from the fighter porch that there is NO WAY that I will be able to continue my education outside of a distant learning environment. Is that just part of the gig? Apparently the only way to make the Air Force work for you and your career is to not have a service commitment.

In conclusion, I guess my only option is to knock out SOS (twice) and work for a few years to obtain some bullsh*t on-line degree so that the Air Force will think that I am a better officer. For those of us that are not going to be lifers, how is it that we are supposed to make ourselves competitive in the civilian market? Unfortunately being a "fighter pilot" doesn't impress any one as much as it impresses us and without the continuing education from a respectable university it becomes almost impossible to be competitive in todays civilian industry.

Rant off--Merry Christmas!

[brickhistory]

That's life.

Not trying to be a d1ck, just speaking the truth.

Your colleagues are in jobs that aren't in as much demand as yours and thus have flexibility to pursue other things within the Air Force. You owe Uncle another five years and are in a short-manned area.

Questions?

Yes, it's always better to be in a position of strength when wanting something from Big Blue. Again, nothing new there.

A question for you: If you have decided to punch at the end of your commitment (no judgment, thank you for your service), why bother with SOS in any flavor? Or is there still an element of keeping your options open?

If the latter, see my opening line.

Don't take an "on-line bu11shit" degree if you don't want to. Find a "real" university to get an advanced degree if you think that will be of benefit or interest to you post-USAF. Get the degree because you want it. Unless you think you might want to stay in and get promoted. Then see the opening line again.

The system is what it is; until you are CSAF, you can't/won't change it. Generations before you have b1tched the same thing. Any changes noted?

Again, deal with reality, not "how it should be" and you'll be much less frustrated, IMO.

Good luck.

Edited December 25, 2009 by brickhistory

[Mark1]

I know that most will disagree with me but in my mind the only correct option is to refuse to give into the PME "requirements" and either:

-Accept that you'll retire an O-4 or be forced out as an O-3

-Punch at 10yrs and MAKE IT KNOWN that you're leaving in large part due to the inflexibility of the current illogical PME system

The only other option is to get your PME done and waste your time obtaining a basket weaving degree that brings no truly applicable knowledge/experience to your job, then hope you're promoted to CSAF while having not succumbed to the Kool-Aid where you can make significant changes. Not likely.

The reality is that the majority will continue along the blueprint path. They'll put their brain on the shelf for a while and get their PME/basket-weaving degree done that they know does nothing for anybody beyond getting them promoted, and your departure will hardly be noted. However, if enough good guys punch out at 4/6/10yrs and cite the ridiculous PME system as the reason, there will eventually be change. Sadly it won't be in time to benefit you, but I really do believe it serves the greater good.

I hear another young Capt bitching and moaning daily around the squadron about how they've just enrolled in an online degree program that makes no sense and benefits nobody but that they see no alternative but to fall in line if they want to progress.

It's the same mentality that leads to flyers being turned away from the chow hall after a long combat flight because they have the wrong size socks on..."well it makes no sense but it's not worth fighting over, I'll just go get the correct socks/reflective belt/hat/holster/PME/basket weaving degree/etc/etc.

[tac airlifter]

In conclusion, I guess my only option is to knock out SOS (twice) and work for a few years to obtain some bullsh*t on-line degree so that the Air Force will think that I am a better officer. For those of us that are not going to be lifers, how is it that we are supposed to make ourselves competitive in the civilian market? Unfortunately being a "fighter pilot" doesn't impress any one as much as it impresses us and without the continuing education from a respectable university it becomes almost impossible to be competitive in todays civilian industry.

Rant off--Merry Christmas!

I have empathy with your plight. The situation sucks and it isn't going to change unless we lose a war and get all our leadership replaced. The same system that you are fighting now produced the officers in charge; where is their incentive to drastically change the system since it picked them to be leaders? They think the system works quite well. All of the best pilots/aircrew/officers I know either went ANG, SOF or left the AF after their third tour.

[pawnman]

I think we've got two separate issues here. The first is the ridiculous PME which, while dumb, is not that time consuming. I finished SOS, start to finish, in less than a month...and it would have been a shorter timeframe, but you have to wait three days between tests. Studied the gouge for 30-45 minutes, took the tests in about 15 minutes apiece. Total time investment, about 5 hours...while deployed anyway, so what the hell else was I going to do?

The other (and I think, larger) factor is how rated officers are used and abused. I don't know if it's strictly because of the extended service committments, or because of our specialized skillsets, or because we have done this two ourselves by being the type-A, can-do, never-say-die people we are...namely, no matter how they screw with a flying squadron, no matter how undermanned, underfunded, undermaintained we are, we still do the J-O-B. We have trained the people above us that there is no cut that they can't make, no deal that is so bad that flyers won't find some way to accomplish the mission anyway.

But I'm with you...it does seem that those in shoe-clerkery jobs get better deals more often. Maybe it's because they can be spared. Maybe its because a finance officer is a FLT/CC in his first job, while in a flying squadron that job typically falls to a senior instructor. Maybe it's because the finance officer just has more time on his hands to look for the good deals and talk his boss into them. I don't know. But it does seem that the USAF has lost some perspective on exactly who is the pointy end of the spear and who is support.

I wish I had some useful advice to impart, but I don't. All I can do is empathize with your plight, and remind you that almost any one of those shoes would give up all those good deals to do what we do on a daily basis.

[Combat Platypus]

Unfortunately being a "fighter pilot" doesn't impress any one as much as it impresses us and without the continuing education from a respectable university it becomes almost impossible to be competitive in todays civilian industry.

Rant off--Merry Christmas!

If it helps being a "fighter pilot" doesn't impress me either.

It will be interisting to see after the economy turns around and people have options open if all this BS sticks around. I'll bet it will get better as will your options outside the AF.

CP

[Bergman]

In conclusion, I guess my only option is to knock out SOS (twice) and work for a few years to obtain some bullsh*t on-line degree so that the Air Force will think that I am a better officer. For those of us that are not going to be lifers, how is it that we are supposed to make ourselves competitive in the civilian market? Unfortunately being a "fighter pilot" doesn't impress any one as much as it impresses us and without the continuing education from a respectable university it becomes almost impossible to be competitive in todays civilian industry.

Rant off--Merry Christmas!

Your conclusion is correct. The system doesn't make much sense, so you either have to live within it or chose to go do something else. I think you may find that the civilian world has its own illogical systems as well, so be prepared if/when you punch.

If you are hoping to go ANG, I would go ahead and get SOS done anyway. Contrary to what many people have heard, SOS is still a requirement for ANG officers as well. It is definitely looked at for promotion and advancement. So no free ride there. I agree with HOSS that if you slow-roll the correspondence course long enough, you may still get a residence slot anyway. Timing is everything, but it doesn't always work in your favor.

If you are, in fact, planning to get out after your commitment, I would wait to get your Master's until maybe the 8-9 year point, and get it from a worthwhile institution. A 5 year old degree won't do you much good, just like a basket weaving degree won't either, unless you are applying at Longaberger. I will caveat all of that with my experience in the civilian world, which is that a master's degree doesn't mean shit. The companies I have worked for were much more interested in directly applicable work experience rather than advanced degrees. Even for the people who had them, they didn't offer any additional pay or early advancement. Your experience may vary.

Beyond that, Pawnman had it right:

All I can do is empathize with your plight, and remind you that almost any one of those shoes would give up all those good deals to do what we do on a daily basis.

[PirateAF]

I finished SOS, start to finish, in less than a month...and it would have been a shorter timeframe, but you have to wait three days between tests. Studied the gouge for 30-45 minutes, took the tests in about 15 minutes apiece. Total time investment, about 5 hours...while deployed anyway, so what the hell else was I going to do?

Same here - SOS in correspondence while deployed and it took up maybe 10-15 hours total. The key is the practice quizzes. Don't know if they're still part of the course. Actually somewhat enjoyed SOS in residence...I hear now they're removed flickerball AND the written exam. Maybe big blue is starting to smarten up...maybe not.

I'm seeing that more and more of my buds are staying on as free agents so that if they get the assignment/career direction that they've been waiting for, they keep going. But with their ADSC up, they can punch whenever they please.

If you don't like your current AD situation, I promise you that the ANG/USAFR will not require you to jump through queep hoops.

[brickhistory]

If you don't like your current AD situation, I promise you that the ANG/USAFR will not require you to jump through queep hoops.

Can't speak to the ANG, but can to USAFR. No PME and no advanced school = terminal major usually. Nothing wrong with that, but know the 'rules' before making any decisions.

All the b1tches about this are nothing new. Nobody is experiencing anything that hasn't been felt/done before.

Read Jumper's "Dear Boss" letter.

Read some Vietnam books.

Read some Korea books.

Read some WWII books.

Read some Indian fighter books.

Young pups have always complained about the 'clerkness' of the service.

Right or wrong, it's a damn big windmill to tilt at. Nothing wrong with trying to change it, but history and the odds are not in your favor.

[PSYCH]

I think through my rant the point was missed. It's not that I am so upset about big blues requirements to make myself better, it's about the level of flexibility to achieve that. If the finance officer is every bit as much an integral part of the Air Force team as the aviator, I feel that they should each get the same opportunities to better themselves and their career. As facetious as I may seem about that, I have heard many remarks about making sure the personnel officer gets the same fair shot as the pilot.

Firebass---thanks for the heads up on the RAS program as that is the type of job that I was looking to find out about, and it's good to hear that it's open to 11XXX career fields. Every now and then I hear about jobs like this but it seems like it's something you have to know about to even ask the question and there isn't any real way to find out about other jobs of that nature. Furthermore, I can't even begin to imagine what hoops I would have to go through to be eligible for those jobs.

[Young Crow]

I'm afraid it probably all boils down to manning. Many have received emails from their AFPC Functional that sound like this: "unfortunately, rated manning at this time does not allow me to sign a release letter from your career field."

Sure, we can't all have it our way, but running undermanned has left rated out of cockpit opportunities to almost impossible. If rated staff is manned at 3%, the planets would have to align before the Man would even think about letting you out of a cockpit.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Young Crow

[GoAround]

If you want to get out of the cockpit so bad, and pursue a RAS/PAS pgm, then do the following:

1. Do the best at your j-o-b

2. get your SOS and masters knocked out

3. let your cc know your intentions

4. fight for consistently high strats on your opr's

5. get picked up as an IDE select on your o-4 board

6. apply to the ras/pas for IDE ASCS pgm

7. go to school

then you'll get the masters you've always wanted and that dreamy job you're itching for post-IDE after the CAF DT gives you a vector. quit your bitching and stop feeling sorry for yourself or the opportunity will pass you by. getting sos by correspondence finished is a means to an end brother. man up.

[Kuma]

Why do you guys want to be out of a cockpit? When I consider jobs, I consider which job allows me to fly the most. When clerks consider jobs, they think about getting an advanced degree or sitting on a staff somewhere.

This discussion just proves that there are pilots who should have been shoeclerks. Good luck to you-

Kuma

[F16Deuce]

FWIW there are some legit schools out there with good distance learning programs (read: not TUI or Embry Ridiculous). I'm in the same situation as you and agree reading 3-1 is more important than any of this shoe clerk shit. If you or anyone else here needs the gouge for the new SOS course, send me a message and I'll hook you up. I studied probably less than 2 hours/test and have my BVR SOS certificate on the fridge back at home.

[Jimmy.The.Engineer]

You know, it seems we need to take stock of what we do have and not the other way. Some people are sleeping in their own feces tonight. Kuma nailed it with the shoes giving body parts to do what we do. Here is your crayon.

[ClearedHot]

Read Jumper's "Dear Boss" letter.

Actually it was Gen Ron Keys;

Dear Boss,

Well, I quit. I’ve finally run out of drive or devotion or rationalizations or whatever it was that kept me in the Air Force this long. I used to believe in, “Why not the best,” but I can’t keep the faith any longer. I used to fervently maintain that this was “My Air Force,” as much or more than any senior officer’s…but I can’t believe any more; the light at the end of my tunnel went out. “Why?” you ask. Why leave flying fighters and a promising career? Funny you should ask— mainly I’m resigning because I’m tired. Ten years and 2,000 hours in a great fighter, and all the time I’ve been doing more with less—and I’m tired of it. CBPO [Central Base Personnel Office] doesn’t do more with less; they cut hours. I can’t even entrust CBPO to have my records accurately transcribed to MPC [Military Personnel Center]. I have to go to Randolph to make sure my records aren’t botched. Finance doesn’t do more with less; they close at 15:00. The hospital doesn’t do more with less. They cut hours, cut services, and are rude to my dependents to boot. Maintenance doesn’t do more with less; they MND [maintenance non delivery] and SUD [supply delete] and take 2.5 to turn a clean F–4. Everybody but the fighter pilot has figured out the fundamental fact that you can’t do more with less—you do less. (And everybody but the fighter pilot gets away with it...when’s the last time the head of CBPO was fired because a man’s records were a complete disaster?) But on the other hand, when was the last time anyone in the fighter game told higher headquarters, “We can’t hack 32 DOCs [designated operational capability] because we can’t generate the sorties?’’ Anyway—I thought I could do it just like all the rest thought they could...and we did it for a while…but now it’s too much less to do too much more, and a lot of us are tired. And it’s not the job. I’ve been TDY [on temporary duty] to every dirty little outpost on democracy’s frontier that had a 6,000-foot strip. I’ve been gone longer than most young jocks have been in—and I don’t mind the duty or the hours. That’s what I signed up for. I’ve been downtown and seen the elephant, and I’ve watched my buddies roll up in fireballs—I understand—it comes with the territory. I can do it. I did it. I can still do it—but I won’t. I’m too tired, not of the job, just the Air Force. Tired of the extremely poor leadership and motivational ability of our senior staffers and commanders. (All those Masters and PMEs [professional military educators] and not a leadership trait in sight!) Once you get past your squadron CO [Commanding Officer], people can’t even pronounce esprit de corps. Even a few squadron COs stumble over it. And let me clue you—in the fighter business when you’re out of esprit, you’re out of corps— to the tune of 22,000 in the next five years, if you follow the airline projections. And why? Why not? Why hang around in an organization that rewards excellence with no punishment? Ten years in the Air Force, and I’ve never had a DO or Wing Commander ask me what our combat capability is, or how our exposure times are running during ops, or what our air-to-air loss and exchange ratios are—no, a lot of interest in boots, haircuts, scarves, and sleeves rolled down, but zero—well, maybe a query or two on taxi spacing—on my job: not even a passing pat on the ass semiannually. If they’re not interested, why should I be so fanatical about it? It ought to be obvious I’m not in it for the money. I used to believe—and now they won’t even let me do that. And what about career? Get serious! A string of nine-fours and ones as long as your arm, and nobody can guarantee anything. No matter that you’re the Air Force expert in subject Y…if the computer spits up your name for slot C—you’re gone. One man gets 37 days to report remote—really now, did someone slit his wrists or are we that poor at managing? Another gets a face-to-face, no-change-for-six-months-brief from MPC…two weeks later? You got it—orders in his in basket. I’m ripe to PCS—MPC can’t hint where or when; I’ve been in too long to take the luck of the draw—I’ve worked hard, I’ve established myself, I can do the job better than anyone else—does that make a difference? Can I count on progression? NO. At 12–15 hours a day on my salary at my age, I don’t need that insecurity and aggravation. And then the big picture—the real reasons we’re all pulling the handle—it’s the organization itself. A noncompetitive training system that allows people in fighters that lack the aptitude or the ability to do the job. Once they’re in, you can’t get them out…not in EFLIT, not in RTU, and certainly not in an operational squadron. We have a fighter pilot shortfall—didn’t you hear? So now we have lower quality people with motivation problems, and the commander won’t allow anyone to jettison them. If you haven’t noticed, that leaves us with a lot of people in fighters, but very few fighter pilots, and the ranks of both are thinning; the professionals are dissatisfied and most of Lts the masses weren’t that motivated to begin with. MPC helps out by moving every 12–15 months or so—that way nobody can get any concentrated training on them before they pull the plug. Result: most operational squadrons aren’t worth a damn. They die wholesale every time the Aggressors deploy—anybody keep score? Anybody care? Certainly not the whiz kid commander, who blew in from 6 years in staff, picked up 100 hours in the bird, and was last seen checking the grass in the sidewalk cracks. He told his boys, “Don’t talk to me about tactics—my only concern is not losing an aircraft…and meanwhile, get the grass out of the sidewalk cracks!”—and the clincher—integrity. Hide as much as you can…particularly from the higher headquarters that could help you if only they knew. They never will though—staff will see to that: “Don’t say that to the general!” or “The general doesn’t like to hear that.” I didn’t know he was paid to likethings—I thought he was paid to run things…how can he when he never hears the problems? Ah well, put it off until it becomes a crisis—maybe it will be overcome by events. Maybe if we ignore it, it won’t be a problem. (Shh, don’t rock the boat). Meanwhile, lie about the takeoff times, so it isn’t an ops or maintenance late. (One more command post to mobile call to ask subtly if I gave the right time because “ahh, that makes him two minutes late,” and I will puke!) Lie about your DOC capability because you’re afraid to report you don’t have the sorties to hack it. “Yes, sir, losing two airplanes won’t hurt us at all.” The party line. I listened to a three-star general look a room full of us in the face and say that he “Didn’t realize that pencil-whipping records was done in the Air Force. Holloman, and dive toss was an isolated case, I’m sure.” It was embarrassing— that general looked us in the eye and said, in effect, “Gentlemen, either I’m very stupid or I’m lying to you.” I about threw in the towel right there—or the day TAC fixed the experience ratio problem by lowering the number of hours needed to be experienced. And then they insult your intelligence to boot. MPC looks you straight in the eye and tells you how competitive a heart-of-the-envelope three is!…and what a bad deal the airlines offer! Get a grip—I didn’t just step off the bus from Lackland! And then the final blow, the Commander of TAC arrives—does he ask why my outfit goes 5 for 1 against F–5s and F–15s when most of his operational outfits run 1 for 7 on a good day? (Will anybody let us volunteer the information?) Does he express interest in why we can do what we do and not lose an airplane in five years? No—he’s impressed with shoe shines and scarves and clean ashtrays. (But then we were graciously allotted only minimum time to present anything—an indication of our own wing’s support of the program. Party line, no issues, no controversy—yes, sir; no, sir; three bags full, sir.)…And that’s why I’m resigning…long hours with little support, entitlements eroded, integrity a mockery, zero visible career progression, and senior commanders evidently totally missing the point (and everyone afraid or forbidden to inform them.) I’ve had it—life’s too short to fight an uphill battle for commanders and staffs who won’t listen (remember Corona Ace?) or don’t believe or maybe don’t even care. So thanks for the memories, it’s been a real slice of life…. But I’ve been to the mountain and looked over and I’ve seen the big picture—and it wasn’t of the Air Force.

Written a few years after the end of the Vietnam War by Capt. Ron Keys to Gen. Wilbur Creech, then commander of TAC.

[Jughead]

Actually it was Gen Ron Keys;

Written a few years after the end of the Vietnam War by Capt. Ron Keys to Gen. Wilbur Creech, then commander of TAC.

CH, I've seen several versions of this, but usually attributed to a group of folks, not one individual. Reading this one, two questions come to mind:

- If Capt Ron Keys wrote this, how did he end up retiring as Gen Ron Keys?

- I thought the "do more with less" bs mantra was a product of the early 90s--does it really date back to the 70s?

[ClearedHot]

CH, I've seen several versions of this, but usually attributed to a group of folks, not one individual. Reading this one, two questions come to mind:

- If Capt Ron Keys wrote this, how did he end up retiring as Gen Ron Keys?

- I thought the "do more with less" bs mantra was a product of the early 90s--does it really date back to the 70s?

It was Gen Keys as reported by the USAF historian inSierra Hotel, see page 190.

He became General Keys because General Creech (TAC/CC), listened. Look where they moved him right after he wrote the letter in the summer of 1981...they wanted his input and he made a difference.

[Jughead]

It was Gen Keys as reported by the USAF historian inSierra Hotel, see page 190.

Copy, thanks! Good explanation of the letter's basis on p. 66, too.

[DFRESH]

Interesting... I will be reading Sierra Hotel on my flight Thursday. Looks like a good (free) read...

[brabus]

Just finished Sierra Hotel. Definitely a good book and a fast read.

[Day Man]

Just finished Sierra Hotel. Definitely a good book and a fast read.

2, even for a fatty driver.

[SuperWSO]

CH, I've seen several versions of this, but usually attributed to a group of folks, not one individual. Reading this one, two questions come to mind:

- I thought the "do more with less" bs mantra was a product of the early 90s--does it really date back to the 70s?

Look up the "Hollow force" of the Carter years. If you think we are doing more with less now, the late 70's would water your eyes. The AF was drawing down from Vietnam and had no incentive to keep/take care of people. They also were not paying to maintain jets. As a dependant, I saw it when we lost my friends dad and my scout leader in separate class A accidents.

As was stated previously, these are not "new" problems. Just re-packaged in ABUs and reflective belts.

[OL Patch]

That AF historian CH mentions was my first Sq/CC at Bitburg. Heard the story many times in the bar. OBTW--if you haven't read the book--do.

[Jughead]

As was stated previously, these are not "new" problems. Just re-packaged in ABUs and reflective belts.

Oh, no doubt!! I was referring specifically to the *phrase*, "Do more with less," not the underlying assumptions/problems. I'd thought that was a new-speak coined in the early 90s, not dating to the late 70s.